Work in progeress ....questions

[Roger Chandler]

Here is a Osage Orange HF I am working on in the freezing weather, so can't do it all at one setting. It is about 8 inches high where I am going to part off the bottom, and about 6" wide + or - a fraction.

I have hollowed it out to about 3/4 inch on the inside. Now my question...........I want to do a DNA soak, and need to know should I hollow it more, or is now the time to do the soak? Also, if I soak it now, will I likely have problems remounting it? Will the wood shrink as it soaks or dries after the soak?

I am a complete newbie on DNA drying method.....what I have learned has been only from reading comments here on SMC........I did not even know this method existed before SMC.

All constructive input would be appreciated........and any comments on the form so far would be welcomed. This is my first of this type form......I have done some other hollowing [vases] but I also intend to make a finial for this one when I get it finished and use some holly JK sent me awhile back for the finial......probably will ebonize the finial. I have not yet received my Monster Hollowing rig, so this is being done with Ellsworth hand held tools.

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[John Keeton]

Roger, I am probably not the one to comment in that I have never done a vase form, nor a wet endgrain turning, nor osage......just realized, I probably should just keep my mouth shut!!!

But, hard for a lawyer to do that! Were it me, I would use some of that thickness to perhaps refine the outside profile, then even up the walls to around 1/2" or a little less. I think you would do fine with that. But, then, I have never done....... well, you get the idea!:D:o

[Jim Adkins]

Roger, I pretty much agree with John on this one. The only thing I might do would be to reduce tha amount of wood below the base if possible &....I would turn the walls to 1/2" then put it in the DNA for a few hours. I do all my turnings this way(mostly endgrain) and so far only a couple of losses. Those had a lot of reaction wood that I did not pick-up on. Good luck

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I am probably not the one to comment in that I have never done a vase form, nor a wet endgrain turning, nor osage......just realized, I probably should just keep my mouth shut!!!

But, hard for a lawyer to do that! Were it me, I would use some of that thickness to perhaps refine the outside profile, then even up the walls to around 1/2" or a little less. I think you would do fine with that. But, then, I have never done....... well, you get the idea!:D:o

John,

I wasn't sure whether to wait on refining the form till after the soak, so I did leave a good bit of wall thickness just for that purpose. I agree the form has a flat spot in the middle and the curve is not what I want as of yet, and the shoulder also needs some refinement as well.

My question at this point is ........soak now, refine after it drys, or refine now, thin the walls some more, and then soak? If I do the latter, I think I will still need to do some final touch up to get it back to true round , so I am concerned about being able to remount it on the chuck. I did mark it with an ink pen to realign, but I am concerned the DNA will remove my marks.

[Dennis Ford]

I have not used the DNA method so not really qualified but will offer a couple of comments;
* 3/4" is plenty of wood to allow re-turning after drying for this piece, the 1/2" mentioned by John sounds about right.
* I would be concerned that a crack might start in the heavy area near the chuck and propagate into the vase. You can reduce the probablity of this with a parting tool cut at the bottom of the vase (don't part it completly off just cut deep enough to estabilish the bottom).
* End grain vessels with the pith included require careful drying, don't rush the drying after the DNA soak.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I pretty much agree with John on this one. The only thing I might do would be to reduce tha amount of wood below the base if possible &....I would turn the walls to 1/2" then put it in the DNA for a few hours. I do all my turnings this way(mostly endgrain) and so far only a couple of losses. Those had a lot of reaction wood that I did not pick-up on. Good luck

Jim.

Thank you for posting.........somehow I missed your post until after I replied to John's. I will certainly be open to your suggestions!

[Allen stagg]

I have done many vases with wet wood. I typicallly turn to final thickness of around 3/8" thickness by hollowing, but get the outside form where I want first. I have used the 50/50 dishwashing soap and water with great sucess. I turn to final desired form inside and outside and soak for around 5 days fully submerged if possible. I then remove, rinse off and do a slow dry for about a week and then do quicker drying by using the microwave but doing it slow enough to keep an eye for signs of warping or cracking but have had very few issues with the soap misture. I have access to PEG 500 (stores sell PEG 1000) and have had great sucess with the PEG and use that more than soap, but both work well. I havent' had any large issues with warping or cracking since going this route.

[Fred Belknap]

Roger I'm like John, not a lawyer:) but just can't keep quiet. I'm not familiar with either DNA or the soap bath thing, I usually boil my blanks. Looks like you got some good advice. I'm sure it will warp some what ever you do. I have had some luck straightening up a warped tenon by reverse chucking in the opening and using the tail to hold the bottom and gently true up the tenon

[Steve Schlumpf]

Roger - you will want to refine what ever outside form you want before you lose all the wood to play with! If you end up with 1/2" thick - it should be enough to finish turn. I agree with the comment to remove all the excess wood from the chuck end of the turning - no sense trying to dry something that shouldn't be there in the first place!

As far as remounting the vase once it is dry - use the small jaws of your chuck - inserted into the vase opening to drive the piece and have the tailstock in place to support it. You can true up the tenon or recess in just a few passes and then use your chuck from then on.

Just me - but I would round the form slightly more than what it is before removing from the lathe for drying. Have fun with it! Looking forward to seeing this one completed!

[Roger Chandler]

Roger - you will want to refine what ever outside form you want before you lose all the wood to play with! If you end up with 1/2" thick - it should be enough to finish turn. I agree with the comment to remove all the excess wood from the chuck end of the turning - no sense trying to dry something that shouldn't be there in the first place!

As far as remounting the vase once it is dry - use the small jaws of your chuck - inserted into the vase opening to drive the piece and have the tailstock in place to support it. You can true up the tenon or recess in just a few passes and then use your chuck from then on.
Just me - but I would round the form slightly more than what it is before removing from the lathe for drying. Have fun with it! Looking forward to seeing this one completed!

Steve,

Thank you Sir! I appreciate your advice..........it really makes sense to me. Thanks for the tip on using the small jaws of my chuck in the opening to re-true the tenon. If I can find the time tomorrow, then I will finish turn the outside, and do a little more hollowing..........then it will be my first DNA soak. Do you think overnight would be long enough to soak, or should I soak it 2 or 3 days? It was a bit on the wet side.

Also, do you think WOP would make for a good finish on Osage Orange? I have danish oil, WOP and wax.

[David E Keller]

Roger, I agree with your self assessment on the form, and I'd get a shape you like before soaking. I'm a little worried that there may be cracks near the rim and base already, and they may get worse through the drying process... If you can eliminate them, you probably should before drying. I've not done the DNA on osage, so I don't really know if more than 24 hours is called for. I think WOP would be fine for the finish as would the oil. I'm looking forward to seeing it finished.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Roger - the nice thing about DNA is that you can soak longer than needed - but you never want to soak less than needed! So - put it in the DNA and forget about it for a few days!

I wouldn't worry about a finish at this point in time as you may change your mind once it is finished. No matter - poly or a danish oil will work just fine!

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I agree with your self assessment on the form, and I'd get a shape you like before soaking. I'm a little worried that there may be cracks near the rim and base already, and they may get worse through the drying process... If you can eliminate them, you probably should before drying. I've not done the DNA on osage, so I don't really know if more than 24 hours is called for. I think WOP would be fine for the finish as would the oil. I'm looking forward to seeing it finished.

David,

Thank you.......there is a crack at the bottom, a defect of some sort in the wood, and there is a small crack at the rim [actually 2] but I did put some thin CA glue on them and sprayed some accelerator on them this afternoon.

Regarding the finish, do you think a coat of danish oil, cure, then buff, then WOP would produce a good finish?

[David E Keller]

David,

Thank you.......there is a crack at the bottom, a defect of some sort in the wood, and there is a small crack at the rim [actually 2] but I did put some thin CA glue on them and sprayed some accelerator on them this afternoon.

Regarding the finish, do you think a coat of danish oil, cure, then buff, then WOP would produce a good finish?

Beware... the DNA bath seems to sort of dissolve CA, so I don't know how it'll hold up while drying. Not sure if epoxy would have the same response, but someone else here's probably tried it.

I think you may be able to skip the WOP all together if you get a good build of the oil... I guess it all depends on the look you're after.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, I do have a secret for instantly drying and stabilizing my rough turnings but I am loath to reveal it. Not because I want to keep it to myself but more because of the inherent danger it can present. But you have been so forthcoming with your words of kindness and encouragement that I would feel terribly guilty if I did not offer you this incredible process. So here it is (Caveat: Use this process at your own risk. I will, in no way, be held liable if you blow up yourself, your shop, your home, your town or any combination thereof. JK,does that cover me?)

First of all, you want to gather up your roughed out turning, a five gallon pail and some of each of the following items: Windex, Clorox, nitro glycerin, denatured alcohol, anhydrous ammonia, Coors beer and horse urine (under no circumstances should you yield to the temptation to use our own!). Take all this stuff a good distance from your house and shop (and anyone else's too), preferably into a deep cave. Mix the ingredients together in the pail. There is no "formula". Measurement is unnecessary as long as some of each ingredient is present in the brew. But... and this is very important... add the nitro last!! OK... ready? Pour in some of the nitro, toss in your turning, slap the lid on and run like hell. One of two things will happen. If all goes well, there will be an audible gurgling sound from the bucket. The top might vibrate around a bit and then it will harmlessly pop off and you will see a large puff of whitish vapor emitted from the pail. When you go back over to where it is, you will see to your delight that all of the liquid has vaporized, taking with it all but exactly 12 percent of the moisture content of your roughed out turning!

The other thing that could happen (needless to say, this is the reason for running like hell after you toss in the nitro and the turning) is that the whole thing can explode with enough force to take out anything within a few hundred yards. Of course, this also reduces your rough out to a bunch of tiny splinters spread over a large area (at least those that are not incinerated in the explosion). Obviously, if this occurs, you have to start all over and you will need to get a new pail too. On the other hand, if everything goes according to plan, you will have a perfectly dried, un-cracked and un-warped piece to chuck back up on your lathe. This is so much better than waiting six weeks or six months while your wood dries "naturally". You can go right back to work on your latest inspiration with almost no interruption at all.

Oh and one other thing... people always ask what the odds are of this actually producing a dried rough out instead of an explosion. I always say that the odds are "pretty good". And it doesn't hurt if you happen to be a bit of a pyromaniac. That way you will be happy either way!

I guess now that I've posted this on a public forum, everyone will be doing it. I've been trying to patent this process but for some reason beyond my comprehension, I have not been able to find a patent attorney that would touch it with a ten foot pole. Go figure. So I guess I might as well make it public.

Good luck and let us know how it works out for you...

[Roger Chandler]

David,

:eek::eek::eek:..........:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

That being said.......when one goes "shopping" for the "catalyst ingredient -nitro glycerin, I think in our current environment that a visit to ones premises from the BATF, FBI or Homeland Security Agency might be a distinct possibility!

Were you just telling me to go blow myself up, in a round about way? :eek::D:rolleyes:;)

[Curt Fuller]

................... a five gallon pail and some of each of the following items: Windex, Clorox, nitro glycerin, denatured alcohol, anhydrous ammonia, Coors beer and horse urine (under no circumstances should you yield to the temptation to use our own!)........... .

Wait a minute, isn't Coors beer and horse urine the same thing? I've always heard that they feed Budweiser to those Clydesdales and then let them fill the Coors bottles.

Actually Roger, the one consistent thing I've noticed about soaking green wood in DNA is that it still warps when it drys, might not crack, but will warp. For that reason, to answer your question about remounting, it will probably not remount without some serious wobble. I usually have a dimple left on the original tenon. I use that for a starting point with a spur drive, a large cone on the tail end, and return the tenon and reshape the vessel. Then you can return it to the chuck and resume the hollowing.

[David DeCristoforo]

"when one goes "shopping" for...nitro glycerin...a visit to ones premises from the BATF, FBI or Homeland Security Agency might be a distinct possibility..."

Yeah... I forgot to mention the possibility of being arrested. Sorry...

[Roger Chandler]

"when one goes "shopping" for...nitro glycerin...a visit to ones premises from the BATF, FBI or Homeland Security Agency might be a distinct possibility..."

Yeah... I forgot to mention the possibility of being arrested. Sorry...

David,

I got a real good chuckle out of your post! :)

[Allen stagg]

But the anhydrous ammonia is kinda hard to get isn't it? We use it where I work all the time, but hard for most people to get. Mayby that will stop most here from trying your recipe. lol

Osage Orange from what I have used is a very tight grained wood and shines when turned and possibly kinda oily wood? Just from what I have used, it seems like it may not soak up the DNA rapidly but that is just my observation from what It appears by looking at the wood.

[David E Keller]

Wait a minute, isn't Coors beer and horse urine the same thing?

LOL... That was my first thought exactly! I had a fraternity brother who's father owned a Coors distributorship. We got the beer for free, and he still couldn't get anybody to drink it.

[Dick Strauss]

And you can expect a visit from a DEA agent if you are trying to buy the anhydrous ammonia and are not a farmer (meth cookers love the stuff)!

[Roger Chandler]

And you can expect a visit from a DEA agent if you are trying to buy the anhydrous ammonia and are not a farmer (meth cookers love the stuff)!

No worries here, Dick! I am one of the good guys! I don't want to come within miles of anything having to do with anything of the sort!:eek::(:(:(

[Roger Chandler]

Update:

I finished off the outside of the form this morning.........refined the shoulder and curve, and decided that I would take the larger part on the bottom, and make sort of a pedestal base for the Osage Orange HF. [Hey, I like feet on a bowl, and a pedestal on a HF! :D]

I liked the look, as it gave the piece some lift, and now I have it soaking in 2 gallons of DNA. I think I will allow it to soak at least a couple of days, and then allow it to dry.

The walls are a pretty consistent 1/2 inch thick except I did leave a little weight on the bottom where the pedestal is, and to give it some ballast for stability.

Question for Steve S. or someone else knowledgeable. How long do I need to allow it to dry before turning off the tenon, and hollowing to final thickness?

With the added pedestal/foot, it will stand about 10 1/2 - 11 inches tall.

I used my recently made steady rest also, and it worked like a charm, and really gave a solid, no bounce hollowing experience. I am glad that I made it a couple or so weeks back.

[John Keeton]

Roger, I have dried two pieces in DNA - both were turned thinner than yours - one walnut, and one cherry. Both were dry in about 3-4 weeks. I would say it depends on how wet the osage is, your ambient conditions once you take it out of the DNA, and the drying characteristics of osage - which could be a big factor.

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I have dried two pieces in DNA - both were turned thinner than yours - one walnut, and one cherry. Both were dry in about 3-4 weeks. I would say it depends on how wet the osage is, your ambient conditions once you take it out of the DNA, and the drying characteristics of osage - which could be a big factor.

John,

I guess my newbie status in DNA process is showing..........I was thinking in drying time maybe a couple of days.............I had in mind some how that this DNA process is a very accelerated process. I hope it does not take a few weeks! :eek:

[John Keeton]

Roger, I probably phrased that wrong!! I didn't check them until 3-4 weeks later!! Big difference and I apologize for the confusion.

You should check out this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?38615-For-those-interested-in-DNA-bowl-drying).

And, this article (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=turning&file=articles_473.shtml).

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I probably phrased that wrong!! I didn't check them until 3-4 weeks later!! Big difference and I apologize for the confusion.

You should check out this thread (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?38615-For-those-interested-in-DNA-bowl-drying).

And, this article (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=turning&file=articles_473.shtml).

John,

You went to some considerable effort to provide me this information. I want to acknowledge your giving attitude as a moderator. This SMC family is a tremendous resource, and you have been a real help in many ways, just as Steve Schlumpf has also. This turner with so much to learn is grateful for the kindnesses, which are many indeed; that both yourself, Steve and a good number of other "Creekers" have shown towards me. Thank you so much!

[Jon Nuckles]

David,

Your drying formula reminded me of an old Monty Python piece about using dynamite to cure athlete's foot (if I recall it correctly). The results of the initial testing were: 3 killed, 15 injured, and 4 missing and presumed cured.

[David E Keller]

Roger, I re-turn them when I can't smell the DNA any more. I'm sure there's a more scientific method, but since I already have a nose, I've chosen to use what I have. As for drying in a couple of days, the microwave is the only way I know of to try and do it that fast. I wouldn't do that after a DNA soak!

[Roger Chandler]

Roger, I re-turn them when I can't smell the DNA any more. I'm sure there's a more scientific method, but since I already have a nose, I've chosen to use what I have. As for drying in a couple of days, the microwave is the only way I know of to try and do it that fast. I wouldn't do that after a DNA soak!

Yeah, David.........I don't think microwaving after DNA would be the best idea! :eek: I think I will have to exercise a little patience, and let it air dry inside my house, and see how quickly it dries in room temp, and moderately low humidity.

I might have to check out that "nose method" but I also have a moisture meter as well.

[John Keeton]

...but I also have a moisture meter as well.Roger, I wonder whether the "conductivity" of the wood with DNA is different than with water - sufficiently to effect the reading?? Don't know - just posing the thought. Also, if you have a pin meter, it will only test the surface and may not give an accurate reading of what the inside MC% is.

[Roger Chandler]

You have a point John...........I thought about that after I had made the post...:o