Another waterstone flattening thread

[Jay Maiers]

I've found a good bit of information regarding the flattening of waterstones. Many posts here suggest that 120-220 grit sandpaper spray-fixed to a granite tile is a good way to go. Does regular wood sandpaper work for this, of do I need to go with something heavier like emery cloth? If I use emery cloth, can I flatten the stones while they are wet, or should they be dry?

A few folks have also suggested drywall sanding screen. Does this stuff work better or last longer than sandpaper?

After flattening, will a rinse take care of grit removal, or do I need to scrub and rinse?

Thanks,
Jay

PS: If it helps, I have a pair of combo stones that I purchased from Highland Hardware a number of years ago. I doubt they're Norton stones; I'm thinking that they're the generic version. Grits are 200/1000 and either 1000/4000 (likely) or 1000/8000.

[John Coloccia]

When I was flattening with a granite plate, I didn't bother with spray adhesive. I used wet-dry and sprayed the granite and the paper with water. The water did a fine job of holding the paper down to the granite. I always flatten my stones wet, not for any deep mythical reason other than it helps clear away all the junk. I never did anything afterwards other than spray the stone clean.

Now I use a DMT Duo for that. As others have said, check it with a straightedge to make sure it's really straight, but mine is pin straight.

[David Weaver]

Wet and dry, do the stones wet with enough water to carry the swarf. Then you can just wipe up the swarf or let it dry. If you use wet and dry, it doesn't matter how long you let it go.

Use 60 grit on the 200 stone and something like 180/220 for the rest.

A rinse of the stones and wipe of the surface with your hands will get all of the grit off of them, no need to go nutty and scrub them or anything. Pay attention to the edge of your tools when you sharpen - if you get a decent polish with a couple of deep stray marks, then you'll have to chase down how they get there, otherwise don't go crazy.

Eventually, it's nice to get a diamond hone that's for stones only to dress the stones instead of using sandpaper. It'll make your life a lot easier, even though it's not cheap. Something with a flatness guarantee (like a DMT duosharp or something) is preferable, such that if it isn't flat, you can exchange it for one that is. A DMT at 325 grit makes a nice diamond hone for 1000-8000 waterstones. Nicer hones are available at a higher price.

And of note, don't get a DMT from a woodworking retailer, they are off the wall. I have gotten three duosharps on ebay and amazon, brand new, and I think the most expensive one in 8x3 size was $65 with shipping (do not use smaller than an 8x3 hone with full sized waterstones). The woodworking retailers are off the deep end for what they think you'll pay for a DMT - they cost as much as an atoma with a rubber base there, and an atoma is a much nicer hone.

[David Weaver]

but mine is pin straight.

Mine, too.

[Tony Shea]

I personally glue just regular sandpaper (220grit) to a peice of 1/4" thick plate glass and go at it. Granite will do the same thing. I have never had good luck doing it wet on emery cloth but my stones are not meant to be soaked in water anyways, just sprayed. I am able to just brush the mess away a keep at it. While wet it is not easy to get rid of the slurry.

I am at the point that I want a coarse DMT 10" stone specifically for this function though as I am getting tire of constantly changing the paper on the plate glass. The stones really where the sandpaper quickly, especially my harder 8000 grit stone. The scratches left behing from coarser paper are not easy to remedy therefore I just stick with 220grit and rub my 4000 and 8000 together real quick afterwards to clean the scratches.

I've never been able to figure out how people use the drywall sanding screens while keeping them flat on the surface. they do a very poor job at sticking to any surface due to the little surface area. I've always wanted to try that method but never got it to work.

[David Weaver]

By the way, I see the DMT WM8FC-WB hone (325/600 grit combo) on amazon with a base for $56 shipped (they are $100 at ww retailers with no base - I feel bad for people who have blown their hard earned cash on them at that price).

They may have the 325 paired with 220 if you like more coarse than that.

[john brenton]

I use the drywall screen and it stuck just fine with the 3M spray adhesive. I did let the adhesive get a little tacky first before applying it though.

One of the things about the screen is that if you just go back and forth with it it will leave ridges on your stone. I have two screens next to each other and I use a circular "wax on" motion to avoid the ridges.

I have a 10 X 3 DMT that I go on the bay for about $80 (shipping included), but I have reservations about using it on the stones too much. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that using my other diamond stone for lapping shortened it's life. It was a crappy hone though...it was the Smith's brand that they sell at Home Depot. I do use the DMT for lapping every once and while just to make sure that the stone is flat...because I know the granite plate I use isn't. There is a very slight and gradual belly in it that really doesn't bother me...but just to be safe I'll make a few passes on the DMT.

[Jay Maiers]

Thanks guys.

Regarding the flatness of my granite plate:
I've got an 18" Starrett combination square ruler and a set of shim guages that go down to .0015. How crazy do I need to get when measuring the flatness of the granite tile? If I find it to be outside of acceptable limits, is a granite surface plate the next best option? Woodcraft has one on sale right now for a reasonable price, and I'm sure that Enco or MSC has them as well.

[Tony Shea]

Do you reccomend the DMT Duo for flattening stones or would the DMT Dia's work as well? Are the rumors about the Dia-sharps not being truely flat true?

And where does one find a source to buy the Atoma hones?

[David Weaver]

If you find yours isn't flat, the one at woodcraft would be fine. All of those chinese granite plates like WC and enco have are very very flat.

Can't tell you what isn't flat enough, but I wouldn't worry about a thousandth and a half if you can't get your feeler between the granite and the stone.

[David Weaver]

Schtoo has atoma hones (google "tools from japan"). So does alex gilmore on ebay ( the japan blade - not sure what his user is on ebay, but "atoma" will find it if he has them), but he doesn't *always* have them. There are options other than schtoo direct from japan, but they are more expensive. Spring for the base if you get one, it's a great base, and it makes using the hone a lot easier.

I'd like to take credit for schtoo having atomas because i tooted greatness about them for a long time, but i'm probably not as responsible as I think for getting him to stock them. I still like to take credit, though :)

I have seen advise against using them on oilstones (because the substrate is replaceable and held on via an adhesive that isn't solvent resistant), so if you want to do that, stick with the DMTs. If you want to just use them on waterstones, the atomas work great and they are nicer than the DMTs on waterstones with swarf because the diamonds are arranged on the surface with lots of space between them. No issues whatsoever for me using them on shaptons.

[David Weaver]

By the way, I dont' know what anyone else recommends, I only advocate the duos because it gives you a 325 side to use on the stones, and not subject to regular honing (keeping them keen makes them work on the stones a lot better), as well as a 600 side for honing, which is a nice first step straight off of a grinder or something. You get more for your money, and the ones I've gotten have been flat.

[Charles McKinley]

I use a cement block. I got the tip here or WC and I have been happy with it. It is FAST, Flat and cheap.

[michael osadchuk]

Jay,
I use regular sandpaper on marble or granite cast off floor tiles or kitchen backsplashes.

I'am in the distinct minority in that I attach the sandpaper DRY and flatten my waterstones DRY.

I do this because I find I can use any cheap sandpaper - and a wider range of grits than is typically available wet n dry - and it is much less messy: the stone dust easily vacuums off the paper without shredding the regular sandpaper.
As others have pointed out before, the catch in this system is waiting for the stones to dry out....... because I pretty well have multiples of most stone grits, this isn't a problem for me.

I use ultra thin (.002") double sided transfer tape as an adhesive at the perimeter only of the sandpaper....
http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,110,43466,56667&p=56667

I go down 100 grit to flatten 220 and 800 or 1000 grit waterstones

good luck

michael

[Derek Cohen]

.....I've never been able to figure out how people use the drywall sanding screens while keeping them flat on the surface. they do a very poor job at sticking to any surface due to the little surface area. I've always wanted to try that method but never got it to work.

Hi Tony

Several years ago, when I used King waterstones, I built a "waterstone board" to combine the tasks of holding and flattening waterstones (800/1200/8000 grit).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/waterstoneboardWC.jpg

I used 220 grit drywall screen for flattening. This is attached on the left, dry, and held in place at one end with a clamp (use a free hand to tension the screen by holding the other end).

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Waterstoneboarddetails.jpg

The advantage here is that the screen, which is quite stiff, lies flat and, when the mesh is full, you can just lift the near side end and swab away the water and mud. This worked very well, and I only changed it to a diamond plate when I moved to Shaptons.

Some are concerned that the mesh may leave scratches on the stones. This is not an issue. It is not the coarseness of the surface that affects the blade, but the coarseness of the grit in the stone.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Larry Edgerton]

A drywall screen will release small granules that can become embedded in the fine stone. The same reason that you don't use the same water for different grits. You don't want to contaminate the stone.

I use a diamond plate on a base and do the flattening under running water. It is fast and I feel that the diamond stone is the most stable and less likely to lose its cutting agent into the waterstone. Have been using the same diamond for twenty years now.

[Derek Cohen]

A drywall screen will release small granules that can become embedded in the fine stone.

Hi Larry

I never experienced this.

Frankly, I there that there is as much more of a problem likely from loose grit, or even sandpaper.

Today I use Shaptons. Initially I purchased a DMT Duo Extra Coarse for this, then managed to acquire a brand new Shapton diamond honing plate at a lowered price at a sale. It does work very well, but then so did the DMT.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Drew]

I use a cement block. I got the tip here or WC and I have been happy with it. It is FAST, Flat and cheap.

Me, too; flatten the coarse stone on the cement block with water and some fine sand (like play sand), then rinse well and use the now nicely flat coarse stone to dress the fine stone. Done and done.

This might sound totally crude (it's really not), but it's a method commonly used by Japanese carpenters, who, as far as I know, only use waterstones (and are absolute fiends about sharpening.)

[Stuart Tierney]

I'd like to take credit for schtoo having atomas because i tooted greatness about them for a long time, but i'm probably not as responsible as I think for getting him to stock them. I still like to take credit, though :)


The credit is yours. I was really apprehensive about selling them, until you convinced me they are good. Then I used one.

And used it, and used it some more. I'd love to get my hands on a DMT, just because. ;)

The only annoying part, Tsuboman, makers of the Atoma were immune to my charms, so I still have work through an agent to get the dang things.

I wasn't too broken up, the same week they said "use an agent, please" some obscure kanna maker going by the name of Tsunesaburo decided to let me sell their stuff.

Call that week a little bit sad and whole lot of "holy schmoke!"

Very, very exciting. Check the blog, our visit is in there. Even had my picture taken there, and put that up for viewing. I'm normally very careful about posting up my own picture anywhere, but once you see where I'm sitting, it was hard to resist not putting it up. ;)

Stu.

Back to bashing in price lists. What fun...

[David Weaver]

Stu - maybe you can get them to make a 1/10th, 1/8th and 3/16th inch laminated (western) plane irons? I see they have one that's 5/64ths...saw it on the evil empire's page, and may be tempted to order one anyway and just put a heavy chipbreaker on it.

If they could be bugged to make a couple in 3/16ths (for a double iron) or even 1/4ths (in a single iron) ground flat, I would LOVE to have one to put in an infill. LOVE to. Obviously couldn't support the cost of making one of those one-off, but I hear there's a guy in japan who sells tools who could get them from there to here if they cared to make a run of them to spread out the cost :)

Tsunesaburo would be a good pickup, it would really round out your offerings nicely.

[john davey]

Would sandpaper on MDF work to flatten a stone??? I am brand new to water stones and know people put sand paper on MDF to sharpen so I was wondering if it would work for the stone flattening. Thanks, John

[David Weaver]

As soon as MDF would get any water, it would swell and then dry with the swelled spot raised. BTDT with a router table that got the moisture from the ambient air.

I suppose if you managed to seal it completely without compromising its flatness, you could use it, but it'd be more trouble than it's worth. Just get a piece or two of floor tile from HD.

[David Weaver]

Stu - send me an email about the DMT. I just looked at our postage rates to japan, and they really stink! A duosharp could probably be mailed over there at a reasonable price, though, but anything with a steel base that could make a box 2 pounds or more would really stink up the shipping price.

[Stuart Tierney]

Stu - maybe you can get them to make a 1/10th, 1/8th and 3/16th inch laminated (western) plane irons? I see they have one that's 5/64ths...saw it on the evil empire's page, and may be tempted to order one anyway and just put a heavy chipbreaker on it.

If they could be bugged to make a couple in 3/16ths (for a double iron) or even 1/4ths (in a single iron) ground flat, I would LOVE to have one to put in an infill. LOVE to. Obviously couldn't support the cost of making one of those one-off, but I hear there's a guy in japan who sells tools who could get them from there to here if they cared to make a run of them to spread out the cost :)

Tsunesaburo would be a good pickup, it would really round out your offerings nicely.

Whaddya mean "would"? It's a done deal. :)

From what I was told, what I've seen and what was made known, maybe not right now, but one off irons will be very possible, any way you want them. Expect to open that wallet up wide though, but not excessively so.

That's in the future though. Just gotta convince all you heathens than kanna are actually very nice. Plus specced out for hardwood furniture work will be pretty much 'off the shelf'.

(That, and I can have one working out of the box faster than any other plane you care to put up against them. That was a real surprise...)

Stu.

[Sam Takeuchi]

But they are only good for softwood...

No I'm kidding. I've been toying with the idea of contacting them for the past couple of years to have custom blades made. I had to move away from Japan last year so I haven't managed to do that yet. Maybe once I move back there in a few months.

[David Weaver]

Whaddya mean "would"? It's a done deal. :)
That's in the future though. Just gotta convince all you heathens than kanna are actually very nice. Plus specced out for hardwood furniture work will be pretty much 'off the shelf'.



That'll be good, maybe get rid of the notion that they're bad for hardwoods or difficult to use. First plane I ever used, i didn't use it on a softwood for several months. Worked fine on everything from cherry to curly maple. It continued to work even after I read that a standard angle plane is no good for hardwoods.

I think if people gripped them right the first time, they'd have less of an aversion to them. I only wish you'd have had them in your store 2 years ago, I'm loaded up and (i should be ashamed) have a perfectly good 70mm yamamoto kanna that was never set up, even after selling one off.

[Jay Maiers]

As soon as MDF would get any water, it would swell and then dry with the swelled spot raised. BTDT with a router table that got the moisture from the ambient air.

I suppose if you managed to seal it completely without compromising its flatness, you could use it, but it'd be more trouble than it's worth. Just get a piece or two of floor tile from HD.

Agreed and agreed.
You could use MDF or melamine if you're flattening them dry.
FWIW, I checked my granite tile last night with the feeler (.0015 is the thinnest leaf). I only managed to slide it under the edge of the Starrett rule once. I thought I was doing something wrong until I turned out the lights and used a flashlight behind the rule to check for gaps. It turns out that I could only see the barest sliver of light across most of the surface. Only one or two slight high spots that blocked the light. I don't know how flat that makes the tile, but it's flat enough for someone at my skill level.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... BTDT with a router table that got the moisture from the ambient air. ...

And "BTDT" is short for what?

Pam

[Chris Vandiver]

And "BTDT" is short for what?

Pam

Pam,
I think BTDT means "been there, done that".

[Pam Niedermayer]

Whaddya mean "would"? It's a done deal. :)

From what I was told, what I've seen and what was made known, maybe not right now, but one off irons will be very possible, any way you want them. Expect to open that wallet up wide though, but not excessively so.

That's in the future though. Just gotta convince all you heathens than kanna are actually very nice. Plus specced out for hardwood furniture work will be pretty much 'off the shelf'.

(That, and I can have one working out of the box faster than any other plane you care to put up against them. That was a real surprise...)

Stu.

I have no experience with Stanley type irons (feels awkward calling them that); but have got several Tsunesaburo planes and other tools, such as a huge flattening plate. Great stuff.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,
I think BTDT means "been there, done that".

Thank you, Chris.

Pam

[Stuart Tierney]

Sam, if you get the brush off from them, let me know. They are not being rude or don't want your business, it's just that it's "not the done thing" as you probably know. They may just go ahead and look after you too, it's not my call but generally they always say to 'use an agent'.

I am unique around here, since I circumvent all that stuff somehow. Must have an honest face or something...

Dave, couldn't have done it even 6 months ago. I would have gotten the brush off just as Sam there might when he asks. Seriously, you can't just waltz up to their factory and get stuff made up. I can now, but that's kind of a 'reward' for the 30 years of BS I have to undo about kanna. I've not yet done my job yet, but I've been given so much to work with it's amazing and so much latitude that it's crazy. I am still in a state of shock over where I am right now.

Pam, yep, it is great stuff. There are probably better kanna out there (as we both well know I'm sure), but for folks who actually use the planes and don't have a blank cheque, Tsunesaburo are exceptionally difficult to beat for the money if it's even possible.

Just need to convince a few more people in this big, wide world of that. ;)

Stu.

[Sam Takeuchi]

For me, it's not a business endeavor and I just wanted to see if they can make a few blades to my specs for my own use. It's not a necessity and I don't have a major incentive other than my own interest, so even if they aren't willing to make a few, that's alright. My blade situation is satisfactory even though not perfect. Perfect would be...have a couple of laminated Togo No.0 blade for LV BU planes ;) No, a blue steel would do.

I think it's really good that they found a venue (you) to get information out about Japanese tools. I wish they would have English version of their website. Their site is one of the most information filled sites on Japanese planes, containing everything from how planes are made, what each different type of steels are like, what they are suitable for, what purpose backing iron have etc., while also showcasing some of their most beautiful pieces. If potential buyers and people who are interested in Japanese planes can have access to that info, that would de-mystify and clear up a lot of misinformation peddled around. It's unfortunate that makers have very little say in what were and are said, and how they were marketed overseas.

[Stuart Tierney]

Sam,

You my twin brother? I had the same thoughts actually seeing all those nice steels just laying around there.

So I asked, and liked the answer. Just need an accurate blueprint and that's it really.

(Hint, LV/LN replacement blades are on my wish list. But don't tell Rob or Tom! And not right now. Enough to do as it is.)


We both agreed that it is information, more than anything else that will help, so as much information as we can nail down and I can translate across into English will be as easily available as we can make it. Video is planned, and more than a few planes will be sent to those who have the loudest voices in this game to see what they think and at least convince them that the apparent situation is far different to the reality.

Even if things were different and I was not in direct contact with them, I'd still do everything I can to get the information out. It would just take a lot longer. With Tsunesaburo backing me up, there's a lot of leverage there.

I just noticed on their blog they have a naga-dai. A nice big one. We'll just keep quiet why that plane got it's picture taken...

(Thanks Mr. U!)

Stu.

[Pam Niedermayer]

For me, it's not a business endeavor and I just wanted to see if they can make a few blades to my specs for my own use. It's not a necessity and I don't have a major incentive other than my own interest, so even if they aren't willing to make a few, that's alright. My blade situation is satisfactory even though not perfect. Perfect would be...have a couple of laminated Togo No.0 blade for LV BU planes ;) No, a blue steel would do. ...

Perhaps Stuart can do this, too; but I've had great luck in asking for custom work through Tomohito Iida. I think Soatoz is also very connected and can commission work, if he ever reopens for business.

Pam

[David Weaver]

Stu - seriously, if you want a duosharp, let me know which one you want (what grits on each side). I know they're light enough that I can mail one to you, no worries about the cost, I'll cover it in the name of experimentation.

[David Weaver]

There are probably better kanna out there (as we both well know I'm sure), but for folks who actually use the planes and don't have a blank cheque, Tsunesaburo are exceptionally difficult to beat for the money if it's even possible.


Yeah, they are just marketed over here at eye-bleeding costs, perhaps by marketing design and by the choice of the planes available, thus we need a white knight behind an internet store and blog to get us some of the "user tools" that are appropriate for folks who don't have a blank check.

No need for hammering, no special googley moogley - just a wrought iron backed 70mm kanna with a plain finish on the iron.

About five years ago, kanna didn't go so well used, but they seem to be coming on strong. I guess four years or so ago, vince (admin on woodnet) sold me an inukubi nakano kanna in a presentation box for $250, pretty much unused. That may be the biggest bargain of all of the things that I have in my shop. It is so nicely made that even sharpening it gives you the same feeling homer simpson gets when someone mentions donuts.

[Stuart Tierney]

Umm, I dunno which one? Never looked at what they have...

Whatever matches up to a #400 Atoma on one side, and I'll match up on the other side with a loose plate or another Atoma.

No rush, but I am curious.

I just hope it's flat...

Thanks, and if I remember, I'll shoot you an email some time soon.


On the kanna, what you want is more than doable. If I get my way, there will be a few new lines from them that are geared specifically to the export market and different disciplines, focus on usability more than anything else.

Besides, the blades largely swap out without changing, so it might only be dai that are specific. Dunno yet, I'm just nailing down what they already make before re-inventing the wheel. As it is, speccing out a kanna is only a few lines on an order and a few extra bucks. From your end, click and go, everything will be right there and easy to find. ;)

Stu.