PDA

View Full Version : Stain not getting into the pores!



Steve Sloan
01-24-2011, 2:48 PM
Hi All,

I'm finishing quite a bit of red oak trim in my basement, in the form of wainscoting, soffits, and a bar. Some of the wood is veneered but the main problem I'm seeing is on the solid stiles and rails and cove trim. Here's what we've done so far:



Sand with 100, 120, 180 w/ random orbit sander and 220 grit by hand.
Vaccum between each grit and after the 220 grit.
Wiped down everything with a mineral spirits-dampened cloth.
First stain was actually an alcohol based dye: Behlen Solar-Lux Medium Red Mahogany
We then evened out the blotchy spots where the Behlen had gone on too heavy by "pulling" it out with a water-dampened cloth.
Second stain was Minwax 225 Red Mahogany standard-issue oil-based stain, wiping off excess after 10 minutes.

So the issue is that now, on some of the boards, you can see the big fat pores of the oak coming to the surface and they look lighter - significantly lighter than the surrounding dark-stained wood. Almost like no stain ever 'stuck' to the pores. This is not just the occasional light spot. On some boards, it's like there are little light specks all over it and you don't have to be really close to see it.

In an inconspicuous area, we tried some dark gel stain, but when wiping off the excess, there were the specks again. I even tried another coat of Minwax. Still have the light colored specks.

On a test piece, I went ahead and put on a coat of poly but you can certainly see the light specks through the poly. Certainly did not look like the deep dark color I was hoping for, so I'm scared to go any further with the trim until I solve this problem.

Anyone ever seen this before? What did you do about it?

Thanks a bunch,
Steve

Tim Sproul
01-24-2011, 6:45 PM
It sounds like you want the unfilled pores look but the pores need to be colored darkly. Try applying a lot of alcohol based dye. Alcohol has less surface tension than water and is more likely to flow into the pores. You can also try working the dye into the pores with a brush. The surest and easiest way is to use colored grain filler and fill the pores.

Steve Sloan
01-24-2011, 7:02 PM
Hi Tim,

thanks for responding. I don't really care if the pores are filled or not. Thank you for your suggestion of colored grain filler - can you recommend a product? Would I mix the minwax with it? Would this approach throw off the rest of the surrounding wood?

Thanks again,
Steve

p.s. see below for pictures of the issue.

179588

179587

179586http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

Tim Sproul
01-24-2011, 8:38 PM
Looking at your pictures, I would suggest using a sponge or rag heavily soaked in the dye. Squeeze the dye into the pores. This will be messy but faster and easier than filling the grain..

Steve Schoene
01-25-2011, 8:16 AM
The stain has likely sealed the surface sufficiently that the dye will be unlikely to take evenly, and nothing will really have changed about why it didn't take within the pores. A pigmented stain should work, though I'm not sure Minwax is the best choice. It has always seemed to me to have relatively coarse pigment. If you want to avoid having too much effect on the dyed color on the surface, I would apply one coat of shellac--say 1 1/2 or 2 lb. cut. Then use a good pigment only stain and make sure when you wipe off the stain that you wipe across the grain to avoid pulling the stain out of the pores. Then let it set up for perhaps an hour before wiping with the grain to remove any stain left on the surface. This is pretty much the same proceedure that you would use with pore filler, except you would use a plastic scraper to wipe off across the grain, and burlap to finish the job.

Chris Fournier
01-25-2011, 5:29 PM
That's pretty classic when it comes to oak and ash from my experience. I'm curious why you used water to move around an alcohol dye Steve?

When this has happens to me, which is pretty often, I mix up my own "glaze" by using oil or varnish as the carrier/binder depending on the topcoat and I add a pigment like universal tinting colours (which I stock in the shop) or even an earth oxide mix. You can shoot for any colour that you choose, blending in to match the dye, contrasting or just plain black. After the dye coat lay on a sealer coat of your choice - this is important. Once the sealer coat is on I brush this coloured slush or glaze on the project and let it sit for a bit and then try to push it into the pores. I wipe it off thoroughly, let it dry and either scuff sand or use a solvent to make sure that the glaze is only in the pores, Usually one shot does it once you get the technique down - pretty much an "open pore filling process." Now you can carry on with your topcoating.

Along these lines I once I got myself in huge trouble on a commission. I had clear coated padauk with varnish and after several coats I wet sanded with mineral spirits. Great I thought! Well, it wasn't great because once the solvent had flashed off white powder from the sanding had filled the pores and looked like your oak. Nothing I could do would remove this white gunk in the pores and recoating wasn't an option in the 11th hour. I sat down and really thought that I was cooked and then a light bulb came on. I thinned some past wax with mineral spirits and then tinted the paste wax with earth oxides to a darker but complimentary colour to the padauk because I knew that it would darken with time. I applied two thin coats of the tinted paste wax, buffing each coat and the pores looked perfect. Truly what I'd call a cover up but it worked and I delivered the piece the next day as promised. Trouble was that the furniture was going to an island and a barge had been rented for the delivery date which was the next day. One of the few times that I pulled a rabbit out of my hat.

Steve Schoene
01-25-2011, 10:44 PM
Solar Lux isn't really an alcohol based dye though it may contain alcohol, it's a water based dye dissolved in a gylcol ether which thinned mostly with acetone as well as alcohol in the package to reduce grain raising. But the dye still is water soluble. Personally I think it dries to fast for anything but spray application, I like the extra time afforded by water soluable powdered dye that can be really flooded on so that the concentration of the mix determines the shade rather than precisely how evenly you apply it.

I agree with making ones own stain (or since the surface should be sealed before the stain is applied, it is correctly called as Chris does, a glaze. You don't have to use formal glaze base, some BLO to keep it from getting tacky too fast, some varnish to provide a strong binder, and enough thinner to make it work comfortably. UTCs work, but I also use dry earth pigments or artists oil paints (avoiding the cheapest student grade paints which may have things like wax as stiffeners.) Use on unsealed woods the same material makes a good wiping stain.

Stephen Pereira
01-26-2011, 5:09 AM
I'm having the same problem as the OP. I've thought of using tinted glaze as suggested by Chris but was thinking that perhaps, in time, the open pores of oak or ash might reappear.

Maybe filling pores with tinted past wood filler would work better?

Chris Fournier
01-26-2011, 1:37 PM
I'm having the same problem as the OP. I've thought of using tinted glaze as suggested by Chris but was thinking that perhaps, in time, the open pores of oak or ash might reappear.

Maybe filling pores with tinted past wood filler would work better?

I have pieces that are approaching 20 years old where I used this technique and they look just like the day that I glazed them.

Glaze is way easier to work with compared to filler!

Stephen Pereira
01-26-2011, 2:45 PM
Thanks Chris..I'll use your method. Commercial and/or your home made glaze is alot easier to come by locally than paste wood filler..cheaper too!!

del schisler
01-26-2011, 6:54 PM
Hi Tim,

thanks for responding. I don't really care if the pores are filled or not. Thank you for your suggestion of colored grain filler - can you recommend a product? Would I mix the minwax with it? Would this approach throw off the rest of the surrounding wood?

Thanks again,
Steve

p.s. see below for pictures of the issue.

179588

179587

179586http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

Looks like you should have used a blotch control on the board's and that wouldn't happened. Here is a blotch control video to look at. By charles neil I use his stuff and it is great. http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=InTheWorkshop#p/u/16/IfCYMdrP8rM

Steve Sloan
01-28-2011, 12:46 AM
Hi Everyone, thank you for all your comments... I'm going to do some experimentation, but here are some questions back:

@Steve Schoene: you recommend trying a "good pigment only stain". Only thing I know is that you don't seem to like Minwax. Could you recommend at least a brand?

@Chris Fournier: why you used water to move around an alcohol dye Steve? I read about this as a fix to uneven dye in this magazine:
http://www.tauntonstore.com/finishing-wood-017017.html
... realizing your point at the time, I asked my wife (a chemistry major) about alcohol vs. water. She told me they are both polar, so it made sense that if something dissolves in alcohol, it should also dissolve in water. Apparently most alcohols have water in them anyway. Plus, I tested it in an inconspicuous area and it seemed to do exactly what we wanted, it pulled out some of the dye. Also, I couldn't imagine that water would leave any residue behind that would interfere with the oil-based Minwax, if the water was left long enough to evaporate. In Colorado it is so dry that this drying time was not a concern.

Also @ Chris Fournier: It is great to hear someone else has had this issue! Thank you! To clarify though, it sounds as if your glaze suggestion is supposed to be between the dye and the Minwax (in my case), since you say "after they dye coat". I wonder if this will work for me since I've already stained everything with Minwax... It sounds like maybe the wax trick you used on the padauk or a tinted wood filler would be more appropriate for my situation... agree?

@ Steve Schoene: I agree the solar-lux dries a bit too quickly - I will definitely look into mixing a water based dye for the future.

@del schisler: You could be right about a conditioner helping to prevent this issue. In my defense, everything I had read said Cherry and similar woods suffer from blotchiness, not Oak.

Ron Swenson
12-05-2012, 12:37 PM
Hi All,

I'm finishing quite a bit of red oak trim in my basement, in the form of wainscoting, soffits, and a bar. Some of the wood is veneered but the main problem I'm seeing is on the solid stiles and rails and cove trim. Here's what we've done so far:



Sand with 100, 120, 180 w/ random orbit sander and 220 grit by hand.
Vaccum between each grit and after the 220 grit.
Wiped down everything with a mineral spirits-dampened cloth.
First stain was actually an alcohol based dye: Behlen Solar-Lux Medium Red Mahogany
We then evened out the blotchy spots where the Behlen had gone on too heavy by "pulling" it out with a water-dampened cloth.
Second stain was Minwax 225 Red Mahogany standard-issue oil-based stain, wiping off excess after 10 minutes.

So the issue is that now, on some of the boards, you can see the big fat pores of the oak coming to the surface and they look lighter - significantly lighter than the surrounding dark-stained wood. Almost like no stain ever 'stuck' to the pores. This is not just the occasional light spot. On some boards, it's like there are little light specks all over it and you don't have to be really close to see it.

In an inconspicuous area, we tried some dark gel stain, but when wiping off the excess, there were the specks again. I even tried another coat of Minwax. Still have the light colored specks.

On a test piece, I went ahead and put on a coat of poly but you can certainly see the light specks through the poly. Certainly did not look like the deep dark color I was hoping for, so I'm scared to go any further with the trim until I solve this problem.

Anyone ever seen this before? What did you do about it?

Thanks a bunch,
Steve


Using a glaze as suggested by another post is a pretty sure-fire method to address the problem. Here's a couple of alternatives that I've used with good results.

I. Double - dye.
- Prepare your work as usual and apply a heavier than normal coat of wood dye. I use an aniline dye in a water/alcohol mix. Don't wipe it off, but allow it to dry completely.
- Hand sand your work across the grain with fine (I use 320 grit) paper. Allow the dust (which is already stained by your dye) to pack into the open pores. When finished, wipe your work with a clean cloth across the grain to remove clumps of sawdust, but leave the stained dust to remain clogged in the pores. Don't use a tack cloth or compressed air to remove excess dust. This also removes any grain that raised with the water mixture.
- Apply a second coat of dye to which you've added a little clear shellac. I use 8 part dye solution to one part shellac out of the can to yield around a 1/2 # cut. Float it on across the grain without too much fussing around. The dye/shellac solution will soak into the dust plugs in the pores, and the bit of shellac will make them stay stuck when dry. I do my wiping off carefully across the grain - timing is important. Too early, you wipe out some of the plugs; too late the shellac starts to get tacky and messy. I try to wipe after a couple of minutes. Allow to dry completely.
- Apply a seal coat of shellac.
- Apply final top coat of colored varnish, shellac, lacquer or whatever.

Alternative II. Ammonia Oak fuming. (The concentrated ammonia required for this (28-30%) is dangerous. Don't do this before you've read up on require safety precautions handling the ammonia, it can cause serious injuries to eyes, lungs, & skin!)

- Place your ready-to-finish work in a suitably sized airtight container (the smaller the better.)
- Employing the appropriate safety measures (gloves, goggles, ventilator, splash protection at a minimum) pour some concentrated ammonia in an open glass dish and place it in the container with your workpiece. I do this outside and upwind, if there's a breeze.
- Seal the container and walk away for 48 hours.
- Open the container with the same safety precautions, preferably outside, and remove your work, with gloves. Discard any un-evaporated ammonia in the garden - it's a good source of nitrogen for the plants.
- Allow the work to out-gas for a day or two, finish sand again, and then proceed with finishing.

The ammonia vapors oxidizes the lignon in the oak, turning it a dark brown to black, which also includes the insides of the pores. The effect is pretty dramatic on quartersawn white Oak, because the rays contain almost no lignon, so they will appear white against a blackened background.

Experiment with this method on scraps to make sure you like the effect before trying it on your workpiece.

Troy Turner
12-05-2012, 4:57 PM
Steve -

Welcome aboard! Looks like you have a lot of good info your way. I don't have anything to add other than you've shown us some good close ups of a project and now we'll want to see the rest of it when you're finished ;)