Salvaged D8

[Joe A Faulkner]

Most of my spare time has gone into remodeling the shop for the past several months. I have a thread over in the workshop forum on that little all-consuming project. This summer I became interested in handtools. I've restored several planes, bought some bench chisels as well as few mortise chisels. A few weeks ago, I picked up a couple of old backsaws from a fellow creeker. Shortly after they arrived, I noticed this old rusty saw in one of the outbuildings on the property. It looked beyond repair, but I thought, other than a few hours of time, what do I have to lose? I cleaned the handle and gave it a few coats of paste wax. The blade was treated to various scrapers, and grits of wet/dry sandpaper. While its far from perfect, the price was right. Once I get the shop back in order, I hope to build a workbench. This saw might see some action on that project.

[harry strasil]

Good find, You will love it I am sure. nice job

[george wilson]

Yes,a good find. Certainly better than Marv's finds.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Nice! Looks like it's got plenty of life left in it too, and with a finer finish tooth count (9 - 10 TPI?). I've found those are less common in a full hand saw size.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Joe,

Good job on reconditioning that old guy. It's quite surprising sometimes what's beneath all that rust and grime. Will you be filing it?

[Tony Shea]

Will you be filing it?


I think you'll be surprised at how useful this saw will be especially after undertaking the filing proccess. It looks like a great saw and believe it would really benefit from a good sharpening.

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

In contrast to your find, here is one of mine. I have to say, the ergonomics is a bit lacking. George is right, yours is certainly better. :D

179387
The only thing I can think of to do with this is to make it my Avatar. :)

[george wilson]

Another amazing chicken house saw find,Marv!!!:) Or,is it a rotting rain barrel full of water saw find???:)

[David Weaver]

When you find old saws like that, I would take the ones that have pitting on them like that one and turn them into rip saws. Pitting is a real downer on a crosscut saw. Not that they won't work, but it affects a rip saw a lot less (i am making my comments based on the assumption that it is about an 8 pt crosscut).

Sometimes, though, the rusty ones are so cheap it is hard to resist, because they are worth more as possible stock for a frame saw with free spare nuts than they are to let them keep rotting away.

Well done on the save.

[george wilson]

Sometimes they get so rusty,when you scrub the rust off of them,you find that you have scrubbed a hole right through them!!:)

[Chris Fournier]

Joe,

In contrast to your find, here is one of mine. I have to say, the ergonomics is a bit lacking. George is right, yours is certainly better. :D

179387
The only thing I can think of to do with this is to make it my Avatar. :)

Nothing wrong with that handle! In the fireams world we refer to that as a "bull pup" grip. Perhaps you should have a restrcited hand tool license though...

[george wilson]

Chris,you are only half right, it's a bull-something grip!!:)

NOT referring to Joe's saw.

[Paul Incognito]

That's a nice looking saw Joe!
Using old tools that I've rescued from the brink is much more satisfying to me than using new tools.
Enjoy It!
Paul

[David Weaver]

you find that you have scrubbed a hole right through them!!:) in that case, I'd file the hole cleanly around the edges, and put it on ebay and say "SUPER RARE Disston Saw with Hole!!!!" on the auction.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Joe,

Looking at your saw a little more closely, there is something puzzling about it. The top isn't shaped like a D8. It's more like a No.7, but it doesn't have a lamb's tongue like a No.7 or D-7. The blade just below the handle is curved inward like a D8, where as a No.7 is curved outward. Is it a cover top? In other words can you see the edge of the blade showing through on the top? It appears to be a "let-in" handle as all D8,s are. The grip hole looks to be smaller than a D8. It has 5 screws, but a No.7 has 4 screws. It's the shape of the top that is the most puzzling.

[Joe A Faulkner]

Hi Marv, Though you can't see it in the photos, the etching is legible and says D-8. The attached "Before" picture of the handle shows the top of the handle is open to the blade.

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

Very strange..... All D8,s had the "let-in", cover-top handle. In fact, the D8 was the first to have that handle design, starting in 1874 I think. When you removed the handle are there any extra holes in the blade indicating that the handle might not be original?

Thanks for the picture

[Joe A Faulkner]

No, there were not any extra holes in the blade, but, as you can see if you look closely, the nuts don't line up all that well. Also, there were remains of deteriorated, non-metal, non-rubber washers under the nuts. The consistency of what remained was something like cardboard. Perhaps the handle is not the original.

[Marv Werner]

Joe,

My favorite source for Disston saw information is at this link http://disstonianinstitute.com/ This is the D8 page.... http://disstonianinstitute.com/d8page.html

If you want to snoop around on that site maybe you can find something I didn't. My guess is as you said, the handle might not be original. You might keep your eye open for another old D8 with a crappy blade but a good handle. Or maybe George has one laying around that he will donate. :p

[george wilson]

Sorry,I am such a tool pig I hardly have room for my good tools.:)

I do not keep non functional tools around,because I actually make things with my tools,Marv.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Sorry,I am such a tool pig I hardly have room for my good tools.:)

I do not keep non functional tools around,because I actually make things with my tools,Marv.

George, really. Marv takes ill-treated saws and makes them useable. As long as I've known him, his business is not making furniture. Only complaint I'd have is his apparent obsession with western saws. :)

Pam

[george wilson]

What about your obsession ,Pam ??:):):)

[Marv Werner]

Hi Pam,

You are right, for years, I've focused on western style saws, but lately I've been giving pull saws some thought. I'm about to finish making what I'm calling an East-West, Push-Pull backsaw. From time to time I see a post that asked the difference between a pull saw and a push saw. My East-West saw is kind of an experiment. The handle can be mounted on either end of the plate. I have cut a few tenons with it and it works quite well, but not as aggressive on the pull stroke without applying some downward pressure on the toe end. It doesn't have the same feel as a Japanese saw, but does provide some aspects of one. The saw is not intended to be sold. It's more to satisfy my own curiosity and to build a unique saw and perhaps inspire others to make one for themselves. I don't expect the saw to become anything of great interest among woodwoorkers, mainly a conversation piece. The tooth profile is that of an ordinary western style backsaw. I'll post some pictures of it in a few days.

[george wilson]

I have had a flush cutting dowel saw for many years. It is a German one,with the handle that swings around so you can use it in either direction,depending upon where the dowel is. It has teeth that cut in either direction,but the result is that the saw does not cut well in either direction. It is perfectly sharp,too. The increased negative rake on the teeth just do not want to aggressively cut into the wood like normal saw teeth do.

[David Weaver]

From my experience turning a zona pull saw blade around after find it was loose, trying to make a push gentleman's saw, I think trying to make a saw that pushes and pulls is a lost cause. I never realized how much different the rake was on a pull saw until then. If you take a plate out of a pull saw and turn it around and try to cut with it, you can't even start the cut - the negative rake is so severe that it just digs in like a brake.

You just don't get pressure on a pull saw on the back stroke, which is one of the reasons I abandoned a japanese-saws-only kick I was only about 3 years ago - the ability to "lean into" a western rip saw is something you can't really get with a japanese saw. I have katabas down to about 5 teeth per inch, and while they work, they are grabby and not nearly as nice to use as a nice disston 12. Getting the correct orientation with them is also problematic. To pull more aggressively, you would always have the tendency to pull the japanese saws back "into the straws" on a board, but the saw does not rip quickly that way. You would almost have to stand under the cut.

I don't have a tablesaw, and really wasn't using one then, so ripping is a big issue. Not so much on short pieces where you can just put the piece in the vise and use a ryoba. Ripping aggressively on inch thick stock, I can almost get an inch a stroke on cherry or other medium hardwoods with a decent western saw. I just can't get close to that with a ryoba or a kataba.

Anyway, I think the geometry is just too different to make a useful saw that pushes and pulls.

[george wilson]

With my back trouble,I could not pull any tool and exert downwards force without soon messing my back up.

[Marv Werner]

Well, David, I guess I have just wasted a lot of time making the saw. It's odd though, when I did a test cut with it, it cut quite well on the pull stroke. It only made good sense that if it would cut on the push stroke, it should also cut nearly as well on the pull stroke. All it needed was a little more downward pressure at the toe end to cause it to be as aggressive as when pushing it. Teeth on a saw don't really care which way they cut the grain whether pushing or pulling, at least on the saw I made. The good thing about actually making a saw to perform in a certain way, instead of just conjecture and theorizing, is, you have an opportunity to see firsthand what it can actually do. The saw is filed rip profile for cutting tenons. It's actually easier to pull the saw than it is to push it. The cut is started with the wood tilted when sawing so the saw is cutting on a horizontal plane. The cut is made to depth on one side, then the work piece is turned around and sawed the same on the other side. The last part of the cut is done with the wood straight up so the saw is still cutting on the horizontal or at a comfortable angle. I'm not here to convince anyone with a closed mind to new ideas. I'm just relating what I actually did, not just theorizing. Pulling the saw takes less effort than pushing it. I would guess that it would be easier to pull than push if one has a bad back. But, what do I know?

[David Weaver]

Easy, marv. I was relating my *actual experience* with a saw that cut well on a pull cut, and was way too aggressive to even use on a push.

Cutting well and cutting quickly enough to be useful might be two different things.

I eventually refiled the teeth on that little saw to cut on the push (because that's what I wanted in the first place), and it does that fine, but it cuts too slow on the pull now with zero rake to be useful to work with. It would need to have a weight on the end of it to make it pull well.

Your time in the shop, you can do whatever you want. I personally won't screw with it again, it's too easy to have two separate saws that work better and faster at their respective tasks.

[george wilson]

Actually,I find it much less stressful on my back to push any tool. If I were accustomed to years of using pull tools,like a Japanese carpenter,my muscles might be used to the different action. By pushing,I can use my upper body weight to push a saw or plane.

The German 2 way dowel saw was made in the 1950's,and seems to be made of perfectly good steel. The negative angles of the cutting edges do not want to cut the wood as well in either direction. It is possible that 2 less aggressive cuts(forward and back) may equal 1 aggressive cut(just 1 direction.)

The only way to prove the 2 way saw would be to take timed cuts with it,and compare the time it takes it to cut the same wood with a 1 way saw.

I don't quite understand why it is necessary to have to re- situate the wood,when it has always been standard procedure to just cut it as it sits with a normal saw. Would having to move the wood always be convenient?

I have to get ready for eye surgery,so I haven't time to discuss this further right now. Besides,Marv doesn't want to hear opposing views about his saw.

[George Clark]

perhaps it's an ultra rare D7.5 :D:D:D

[David Weaver]

I have to get ready for eye surgery,.

Yikes! Good luck with that! If something goes wrong, tell them you want to save the eye so you can put it on a string and scare kids at halloween. :)

[harry strasil]

I use frame saws a lot and I have tried pulling them, they didn't cut very well and jumped up and down a lot like riding a bucking bronco or a bull at a rodeo. Yes, I did that in my youth, till I had a horse go down with me and injure my back at age 13, then I got in the rodeo clown part of rodeoing, after awhile, that made my back worse from diving into a barrel and managing to get out of the way of an irrate bull. LOL I guess I am a saw pusher too, altho I do have an 8ppi disston sharpened pug tooth that saws well in either direction, but i really haven't gotten used to applying pressure on the pull stroke yet. Some day I want to make me a pug tooth dowel saw with no set. I have several short scraps of blades around from making the webs for my bow and frame saws.

[john brenton]

Sounds like an interesting gimmick...and I don't mean that in an insulting way. There have been various attempts to cross the two, the most recent one I've seen being a sort of japanese toothed back saw with a western style handle designed for pushing in the Garrett Wade catalog (I don't know why I get that or where I signed up for it. I find nothing appealing in it).

I guess it would depend on the particular rake of the saw that you're using. I believe the "turbo cut" webs for frame saws are meant to be pushed...so there has to be something there...although I am inclined to believe that if I tried to push a blade with teeth on it like my ryoba that it just wouldn't work without a whole lot of light handedness and technique. There'd probably be a lot of broken teeth after I was through with it.

On the subject, my ryoba saw ROCKS. I had one about 10 years ago that I used for bamboo, but picked this one up along with the Footprint chisels from an ad on CL. I was going to sell it but I love that thing. It's Silky brand and is taper ground. It's almost too easy to cut perfectly (whatever that means) straight and clean...I feel like I'm cheating. The rip side really does leave a glossy surface as if I had planed it. I would like a large one, but from what David says it doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment.

[David Weaver]

You can always try pushing it and see what happens. On the ryobas, the teeth are so aggressive that when you turn them around, they stick in the wood like a bunch of ice picks.

The turbocuts look like a crosscut filing (like the other side of the ryoba) with no rake. They would probably be kind of doggish on the pull in a rip cut (there has to be someone here who could tell us), but a frame saw would be the place to do it. On the zona saw, I tried pulling down once I filed them zero rip, but your urge is to put your other hand on the back side of the spine to put downpressure on it, which doesn't lead to good things. A frame saw is already designed so that it's weighed on the ends, so maybe it would be better.

But if it cuts so well on the push, why bother pulling it? Everyone does things differently, I guess. There was a discussion about using pull saws last year where people were wondering if you should stand back far from the work or lean forward and have your head right over it. I don't know what the "rules" are for using pull saws, but it's easier for me, especially with the ones with no spines, to have my head straight over the work in a pull cut. Some folks really objected to that or thought it was odd.

[john brenton]

It does sound odd...I'm imaging the arm movement and I actually just stood up and grabbed the ruler off the desk and pretended it was a pull saw. Maybe it's not so odd if you're talking about sawing for joinery, but if you're talking about cutting to dimension that sounds hard. From the way I just did it, it seems that it's all elbow and forearm that way. The way I cut I put a lot more of my body into the movement...I'm not "putting my a** into it", but a little more fluid motion throughout the body through the midsection and into the legs.

There's a video of a guy using a japanese saw to cut a 2 x 4 and if I would have watched that video years ago I would have never bought a japanese saw. The guy is just pumping up a storm and hardly making any progress. It took him about 100 strokes to get through the board and he's just pumping away. I barely use any pressure, and just listen to the saw cut. It sounds gay, but it actually is getting pretty zen like. I just softly cut and listen to every tooth slice through the fibers. The cuts are square and finish quality.

I stand back away from the action while sawing at a comfortable angle (comfortable physically and a smooth cutting angle), but do saw with my head over the work at the end where I even out the cut from having made more progress at the top than at the bottom, kind of the same stance and technique you use for a coping saw...that was really hard to describe for some reason. I do like the feedback you get from a pull saw. You can really hone in on the angle that best cuts through the fibers smoothly.

I would never even think of using a pull saw configuration on the push. To me it makes no sense as pulling a pull saw is just as effective as pushing a push saw...but people want to try new things.

[David Weaver]

>>I would like a large one, but from what David says it doesn't sound like a worthwhile investment. <<

Taper ground japanese saws are really sweet, they go through the cut like butter. Maybe slow butter, but still butter. The ones I've used are higher-end saws than the production floppy plate induction hardened Z and Gyochuko saws, though. They are really really nice for finish work and they do not blow anything out on the aggressive side of the cut.

I don't know what the advantage would be to a big one, though, unless you were going to use it to cut large tenons. A 10 point 16 inch tenon saw (for me) cuts tenons much faster, though, and aside from having a lot fatter of a kerf and a little less of that (insert homer simpson sound when he eats donuts) feeling than a taper ground ryoba, I think for practical purposes I would just rather save the japanese saws for the really delicate cuts. I do like a pull saw for dovetails, but I started them that way. Waiting for a noncritical project to think about maybe going to using a western dovetail saw.

Even the Z8 crosscut saw will leave the surface you're talking about - waxy endgrain, but it won't feel as nice as a taper ground saw does.

[john brenton]

Absolutely. Any saw can do that if it's filed and set right...but I must admit that most of mine aren't, and I've never put in the time to learn how to make them that way.

I don't mean get a larger joinery saw, but a larger saw for ripping and x-cutting to dimension. Japanese saws are great when you don't have the set up for working with western tools. For example, I don't have any bench vises as I haven't gotten around to putting a new top on my bench, so it's been convenient for me to clamp a piece to the bench and have gravity and the force of the pull keep the work in place.

I just recently built a sawing bench, which has made ripping with a western saw a little easier. I don't know. I tend to agree with you and save the japanese for delicate work, but the saw I have really excels at tenons of all sizes. I cut some 3.5" X 6" tenons and the ryoba made it a breeze with no back to impede the depth.

If you ever decide to venture out into japanese saws again, the Silky Hibiki is a great choice.


Even the Z8 crosscut saw will leave the surface you're talking about - waxy endgrain, but it won't feel as nice as a taper ground saw does.

[David Weaver]

You can make yourself a temporary saw bench with some glue, your ryoba and a 2x12. I made one I really should be ashamed of out of a 2x12 and a 2x4, but I really don't have any interest in making a "pretty" one until find a perceived limitation with the one I have. I'm not remotely close to being as fanatical about shop fixtures and benches as a lot of folks are, though - I like to spend my time and money on tools, and make the other stuff (including furniture) only when I have to.

Hopefully it didn't come across as I was implying that a polished edge is no big deal, I only meant the japanese machine cut saw teeth do it better than any western saw I've ever seen. The Z8 crosscut is a decent option for anyone doing small joinery on a budget, it leaves a great finish. In fact, all of the gyochuko and Z saws, do a very nice job of polish for their tooth size. The saws like you mention do it at least as well or better, and they feel nicer when you're sawing.

[john brenton]

No, I understood exactly what you were saying.

I did build a little saw bench recently and I really like it. It's the one popularized by Christopher Shwarz and I made a little space for my saws underneath instead of making a till. As soon as my wife get's back (if she can get back...some documents got lost in the mail!!!) with the camera I'll take a pic of the saw bench and the tool cabinet. I finished the cabinet the same night that I posted the pics...with the wife and kids out of town I can actually accomplish things. It came out ugly as sin but I love it...it was such a PITA to have tools all over the place.

PS. To the skeptic that thinks everyone is lying about everything and thinks that I just proved that I'm a liar too, I took the pics on my phone, which took a dump the next day.

[george wilson]

out of surgery and can hardly see. My "new" eye is under a plastic guard. I feel wall eyed. I can make out vague shapes and colors through it,but at strange angles. Computer screen seems tilted at a 30 degree angle through it. Might be the guar. I'm going to go rest for a while/

[john brenton]

Sounds like they gave you some pretty good drugs to boot. I think it's safe to be on the forum, but stay away from the lathe!


out of surgery and can hardly see. My "new" eye is under a plastic guard. I feel wall eyed. I can make out vague shapes and colors through it,but at strange angles. Computer screen seems tilted at a 30 degree angle through it. Might be the guar. I'm going to go rest for a while/

[David Weaver]

George - I think now is the time to do impressionist art until the effects wear off. Maybe you can strike it rich.

[george wilson]

Might be the guar??? What did I mean by that? They numbed my eye with an injection near the eyeball,and though they kept me Hopefully,tomorrow,the side effects will have worn off and I'll be better,I was relaxed so much by their calmative in the I.V.,I did not know the surgery had taken place. I still can't see very well,but by magic the images in my right eye have ceased being tilted at about 30º.

[harry strasil]

I think you meant, it might be the guard that is distorting your vision George.

[george wilson]

No,I have peeked out from under the guard. It's the numbing injection near my eye. just a while ago,the tilted vision righted itself,though I still get fuzzy vision. This is all normal,and will clear up soon according to the doctor,and friends who have already had this surgery. The hard part is going to be when they do that big eye in the middle of my forehead!!!:)

P.S.,I JUST saw what you were referring to!!

[Pam Niedermayer]

What about your obsession ,Pam ??:):):)

Heh, heh. I appreciate really good tools that make my woodworking even more pleasurable, and will wax episodic about them occasionally; but it's more about writing practice than trying to proselytize.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

You are right, for years, I've focused on western style saws, but lately I've been giving pull saws some thought. I'm about to finish making what I'm calling an East-West, Push-Pull backsaw. From time to time I see a post that asked the difference between a pull saw and a push saw. My East-West saw is kind of an experiment. The handle can be mounted on either end of the plate. I have cut a few tenons with it and it works quite well, but not as aggressive on the pull stroke without applying some downward pressure on the toe end. It doesn't have the same feel as a Japanese saw, but does provide some aspects of one. The saw is not intended to be sold. It's more to satisfy my own curiosity and to build a unique saw and perhaps inspire others to make one for themselves. I don't expect the saw to become anything of great interest among woodwoorkers, mainly a conversation piece. The tooth profile is that of an ordinary western style backsaw. I'll post some pictures of it in a few days.

Look forward to the photos. As you've hinted, I don't think there's much future for such a beast; but no harm trying.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

I have had a flush cutting dowel saw for many years. It is a German one,with the handle that swings around so you can use it in either direction,depending upon where the dowel is. It has teeth that cut in either direction,but the result is that the saw does not cut well in either direction. It is perfectly sharp,too. The increased negative rake on the teeth just do not want to aggressively cut into the wood like normal saw teeth do.

Some years ago I bought what was touted as a dovetail saw, red handle, that worked that way. It is equally bad at cutting in both directions. :)

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

From my experience turning a zona pull saw blade around after find it was loose, trying to make a push gentleman's saw, I think trying to make a saw that pushes and pulls is a lost cause. I never realized how much different the rake was on a pull saw until then. If you take a plate out of a pull saw and turn it around and try to cut with it, you can't even start the cut - the negative rake is so severe that it just digs in like a brake....

Don't know, David. I tried reversing the blade on a bow saw, and it worked well in both directions.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

... There was a discussion about using pull saws last year where people were wondering if you should stand back far from the work or lean forward and have your head right over it. I don't know what the "rules" are for using pull saws, but it's easier for me, especially with the ones with no spines, to have my head straight over the work in a pull cut. Some folks really objected to that or thought it was odd.

If it's not necessary to use a saw with both hands and a feet-apart stance, I stand normally straight for pulling, only thing moving is my arm at the shoulder. In the first case, I stand way back. In the second case, I stand the length of my forearm away, more or less. I'd expect your method to seriously strain my back.

Using this method, I typically cut dovetails with two or three strokes each side (say 3/4" thick, 1" high).

Pam

[john brenton]

Might be the guar??? What did I mean by that?

Drugs are great.

[David Weaver]

Pam, what kind of blade was it and how was the tooth profile?

It was so much grab on the zona saw that it pulled the plate right out of the spine when I tried use it on the push, but that was a different type of blade - they punched the teeth with something that made them look like little hook bandsaw teeth.

[David Weaver]

Using this method, I typically cut dovetails with two or three strokes each side (say 3/4" thick, 1" high).

Pam

That is about how many I take in something soft, well or even cherry or walnut which can be sawn pretty easily with a little more persuasion on a good rip dozuki.

I shouldn't make it sound like I'm hunched over, i'm just standing almost right against the vise with my head down. One quick light stroke to get the dozuki on track and three or four strokes to get to depth. I don't know what others do, but I cut tails first and stand back to set the angle of the saw against a mark I might have or a reference guide, and then if I'm using a guide to set it, I take it away and then just cut all three tail lines going in that direction at once if I'm cutting three tails. Then turn the angle of the saw and go back the other way and cut the sides of each tail - that's the fastest way I've found to do it, and the dozuki works well enough for that I don't know if I'll ever get away from it, no matter how many dovetail saw kits I put together. I never mark tails on through dovetails, I hate spending time on layout when it's not necessary. Same method on the pins - all of the same angle first, but obviously they are marked off the tails.

I will always mark everything as little as I can get away with. It's tedious and boring.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, what kind of blade was it and how was the tooth profile?

It was so much grab on the zona saw that it pulled the plate right out of the spine when I tried use it on the push, but that was a different type of blade - they punched the teeth with something that made them look like little hook bandsaw teeth.

If you're asking about the red reversable handle "dovetail" saw, I remember nothing more. It was about 10 years ago, and I think I threw it away, or at least put it in a place where it wouldn't bother me anymore. :)

Pam

[David Weaver]

No, i know what you're talking about with that one. i got one when I very first started woodworking, irwin branded saw with the offset blade and you could flip the handle to use it either way. What an awful saw! When I have something like that and i'm going to throw it away, my FIL takes it.

I meant the saw that you said pushed and pulled fine, as opposed to the one that pushed and pulled and wasn't worth having for anything.