Drafting machine advice

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Anybody an expert on this technology? I much prefer to use pencil and paper to sketch projects and for years I've been using a t-square and it's various accesories. I think it's time to step into the 20th centuary and get a Vemco or similar machine now though. Luckily this old tech is now cheap second hand, but I know nearly nothing about it, so...

First question, elbow or track type? I'm inclined to get both, but for furniture sketching, is that just silly?

Second, scales. Any recommendations on which scales, and for educational reasons, why? I'll be working on furniture and light architectural sketches. I suppose those two uses would benefit from different scales?

Thanks,

[Ron Bontz]

I use the elbow type Brunning I think. My advice is save the space and learn to use a CAD program like Sketchup, or turbo cad , something like that. There is also VIA cad, Design Cad and of course AutoCad. Best of luck.

[Paul M Miller]

I've always preferred the elbow arm type machine over a track or parallel. I always removed the vertical scale on the machine; it was easier to just use a triangle resting on the horizontal scale. A triangle is easier to accurately position to your tick mark than moving the whole machine. I also very seldom used the machine scale for measuring, preferring to use a 12" scale because the edge is sharper and sits closer to the paper.

An "opposit bevel scale" is much handier to use than a flat scale. With an opposit bevel you can push down on one side which lifts the opposit side to get your fingers under it to pick it up. I never cared for the 3 lobe type....too much searching to find the side you want to use.

I don't have much experience with architectural drafting. That might be a different ball game.

Paul

[Kevin Neal]

I'm not an expert, but I can relate to the love of pencil and paper for drawings. I always used a Vemco track type setup and preferred it to the elbow/swing arm style. I still have my big strat-o-steel drawing table in my office at work. Take your pick of scales. Any will work you'll just have to pick the kind you like and set your measurements to match. I have always preferred engineering scales myself.

I miss the old days of hand drafting when drawings were a work of art with drafters own personality. However, I wouldn't be caught without my AutoCAD now. The precision and speed just can't be matched with a pencil. Working in 3D model space allows you to completely visualize and then break apart a project into individual pieces. Keep your tradition, but if you haven't already, learn the new software tools as well.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Thanks guys. I bought an elbow style Vemco, it's shipping, and I think I will get a track type too. Just seems to me that the track type fits my "style" better.

I have zero training with drafting, so being self taught is probably what makes learning CAD unatractive. I've messed with sketchup, and I just spend so much more time fiddling then I should, that the creative train of thought soon disappears. Paper is way faster and more fluid for me.

Room for drafting is no problem. I'm actually working on the new shop, which is the trigger for the desire for a Vemco, and in it will be a little loft space for drafting, if all goes as planned.

By scales, I meant the interchangeable rule type that attach to the machines, not the free floating triangle type. Thanks again,

[Eric Getchell]

By all means, whatever is the easiest!

I too tried SketchUp a while back and found it very difficult to use, so abandoned it and went back to paper. However, about a year later I downloaded the electronic version of "SketchUp Guide for Woodworkers" by Timothy Killen (Taunton Press) and have since done all my projects on the tool. I didn't realize the product is initially configured for architectural drafting of large objects (buildings), so the first thing the author does is walk you through the configuration changes to set the product up for woodworking. Within the first 30 pages I was off and running and never looked back. With any new tool (electronic, paper, or power), the first use is always the most difficult.

Again, only my experience as I was at the same crossroads you were, and by no means trying to sell you on anything - be it a book or a new drafting process!

[Larry Edgerton]

Hi Steve

Another Vemco user here. I have a drafting table that originally had a parrallel on it but I took it off and just use the arm. I too tryed a cad program but I was spending so much of my effort trying to get the program to do what I want I was losing my creativity. Went back to paper, I like the process better for the kind of work I do. If I was better at the mechanics of cad it would be nice when you decide on wholesale changes and have to start clean sheet, but that is the price I pay for being computor illiterate. I would never be good at computors as it just doesn't click with me.

[ian maybury]

Most of my design time has been in engineering, with CAD becoming mainstream only as I was moving out of full time hands on design. Since then my design has been hobby and DIY related.

The big problem with CAD for a relatively new user to my mind is that until you have spent enough time at it so that it's become automatic it's stressful and tiring to use - which bungs up the creative process. It does for me anyway.

For sure CAD on the other hand is unbeatable for clarity, visualisation, ease of re-working/re-using modules - and as an enabler for design tools that use data entered in the initial model...

[Mike Malott]

I'm a track type fan as well.

If you can find a Mutoh, they are a quality, later version (1980s) Japanese drafting machine. I have a Mutoh Model S from ~1982... great machine.

I've always used clear 18" scales, full scale inch & half-scale inch graduations, on my drafting machines.

Mike

[Gregory Lyons]

My own 2 cents, as an old school board drafter, is to go with a parallel bar setup instead. Even the best elbow type machines end up flexing by the time you get to the end of the straight edge and the handle/pivot tends to rub on the paper and smudge your work. A properly setup parallel bar will not flex and tends to leave your drawing in better shape at the end of the day. I dabbled with various machines over the years and alway came back to the parallel bar; I still have 2 or 3 at the house.

[Paul M Miller]

I agree with the the stability of a parallel, but I always had too much stuff like triangles, lead pointer, erasers, etc on my board that got in the way of a parallel. Maybe if I was a little more organized and kept my tools on a table or drawer off to the side it would have worked for me. Another plus for drafting on a board vs CAD is that for a large drawing, you need a large plotter. Trying to scale a piece of furniture to an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper is difficult to see. I'm not against CAD, I used AutoCad and SolidWorks for years, and they are great tools, but for my personal shop drawing, I like the board.

Paul

[Pat Barry]

I think you should step all the way to the 21st century and brush up your computer skills a bit. Download the latest free version of Sketchup from Google, watch a bunch of you tube videos and have at it. You get a little proficient and just a little time and you won't regret it.

[Gregory Lyons]

Well, as I still make my living running AutoCad (Civil 3D actually), I have access to several large format printers so output isn't an issue. I do occasionally get nostalgic for my drafting board days, but there is no way I could be anywhere near as productive on paper as I am on screen.

[Ted Calver]

It depends. I have a Vemco in the shop that I use for quick straight line layouts. It's mostly a big easel though. On the same board is a thick pad of large size sketch paper that gets used for free form and conceptual design (the most use). For serious stuff that needs precision, I run Civil 3D and/or SketchUp and like Greg, prefer the screen and a large format plotter.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Got the elbow machine yesterday, don't know how I drew without one. Need to upgrade the "drafting" plywood sheet though. Good stuff!

I downloaded the ebook that Eric mentioned too about Sketchup as well. I can see how useful it is, and someday I will take the time to learn it. Tonight though, back to the Vemco!

[Erik France]

If you're talking about the drawing surface you might take a look at the white bathroom wallboard. We used that on all of our mayline tables in college. It's harder than the table mats, but a whole lot cheaper. It's the stuff that looks like a dry erase board.

[Jon McElwain]

Congratulations on going old school! I am also dependent on AutoCAD for my living, and while it is certainly a much faster tool than drafting by hand, the old pen and paper definitely has its appeal. I still have an old Vemco drafting arm, but I like my made in the USA Vemco Track system the best.

As far as scales go, I would start with some scales in standard inches first. Architectural scales will translate to your shop much more fluidly than engineering, unless you plan to buy a tape measure in tenths of an inch (usually used in heavy construction - roads etc.). The engineering scales are easier to work with for the math, (no fractions) but at some point you will have to translate them into standard inches for constructing your project in the shop.

You will need some accessories as well. Get a quality drafting compass, with articulated legs and quick release - I use a Staedtler Mars 552 should be around $30 online. Next, use a decent mechanical pencil - get a 5mm and 7mm to start so that you can make different line weights. Remember to ALWAYS roll your pencil while you are drawing a line to make sure you maintain consistent line thickness. A draftsman will have several pencils/pens set with different lead hardnesses for light lines used to lay out your drawing, and heavy lines to make the final drawings. I use HB for my final drawing/dark lines, and 4h for lighter construction lines or layout lines. As far as type of mechanical pencil goes - I have used every high end drafting pencil out there, but now I pretty much only use my pentel side click advance pencils. They work well, they are comfortable, and they hole lead without slipping. Avoid the super cheap ones. Yo can use regular wood pencils, but you have to sharpen them about every 6-10 inches of line that you draw to maintain a consistent line thickness. Mechanical is much better.

Get an Alvin eraser shield as well. This is a very thin stainless steel sheet with precision cut holes through which you can erase. Lay the shield with one of the hole shapes over the portion of the line you want to erase and erase precisely. Should be less than a buck - way worth it. A good T-square will help you precisely set up your drafting arm. I respectfully disagree with a previous poster who recommended only using a horizontal scale. Having the vertical scale set up accurately is far faster. You would have never seen a professional draftsman without the vertical scale - he would have been fired for going too slow.

These are the basics, but you should be able to do most of what you want to with them. After all that, a French curve, various templates with ovals, repeated shapes like hexagons etc. are useful. A can of Alvin drafting powder applied to your drawing will minimize the otherwise inevitable smudging. A good articulated light is highly recommended as well. Mount it so that it can be positioned over the hand opposite of your drafting hand for the best lighting. If you want some really cool old school drafting stuff, google "Leroy lettering machine." This was a device that attached to your drafting arm and actually drew your letters for you. I am guessing they are not made any more, but I am sure they are available on e-bay. One last thing, for your drawing surface, use a 3/4" melamine board, edge it, and use a vinyl drafting board cover. The vinyl cover will take a compass point securely, and is a semi-soft surface for nice crisp lines. It can be cleaned with sponge using Bon Ami powder cleaner (like Comet) and a little water.

Hope that is helpful. Let me know if you have any other questions!

Jon

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jon, Erik, thanks for the advice. Jon, I'm going to read that a couple more times, and I will be taking you up on that offer for more info!

[Paul M Miller]

[QUOTE=Jon McElwain;1621292] I respectfully disagree with a previous poster who recommended only using a horizontal scale. Having the vertical scale set up accurately is far faster. You would have never seen a professional draftsman without the vertical scale - he would have been fired for going too slow.

As with most things, there are usually several ways to accomplish the end goal. It's a matter of getting used to a particular method and doing what works best for you. In over 30 years as a "professional draftsman" I was never slowed down to the point of getting fired by using triangles in place of a vertical scale. I worked next to a guy who had done engine cavity layout for Buick for many years. He didn't use a machine of any kind; just two triangles. He was one of the fastest drafters I've ever seen. It worked for him.


Paul

[Jon McElwain]

In over 30 years as a "professional draftsman" I was never slowed down to the point of getting fired by using triangles in place of a vertical scale. I worked next to a guy who had done engine cavity layout for Buick for many years. He didn't use a machine of any kind; just two triangles. He was one of the fastest drafters I've ever seen. It worked for him.
Paul

Wow, I would have liked to have seen that! Obviously I stand corrected. In our civil engineering office, that draftsmen largely left their triangles on the shelf near their workstations. I suppose there will be some significant differences between civil and mechanical drafting. More parallel lines in mechanical? Anyway, the owner at our office hated the triangles, so they were not used often.

Regards,

Jon

[Gregory Lyons]

Wow, triangle hate? With all due respect, that just sounds silly. Honestly, drafting machine, parallel bar or T-square, it all comes down to personal preference, but I have a hard time picturing anyone being a productive drafter without using triangles.

I worked in civil engineering also (still do); back in the good ol' days we had a drafting room (the bullpen) with 25-30 drafters and maybe 2 or 3 used drafting machines. While the track type are better than the elbow, there's just too much flex in any of the machines I worked with. There were a bunch of them downstairs in the print shop storage area.

[Ron Jones near Indy]

A lost of good info in Jon's post. As a retired drafting teacher I liked either the T-square or the parallel straight edge. Why, easily used by left handers and right handers alike.

[Marty Paulus]

25 years ago (wow am I getting old!) I learned to draw using several different tools. Depending on what I was working on would dictate which method I would use. For product design work I would use triangles. I felt they were more accurate. For tool design I used an machine with an elbow. It was much faster as the scales were the arms and speed was the name of the game in that area. Today I have been trained on a very high end CAD system for work but rarely use it. I actually like using sketch up for most of my personal work. Quick and easy and I have cut list to help lay out the work on the lumber.

[Mike Schuch]

For a big table and big drawing I would definitely go for the bar type. Much easier to maintain straightness over a long line.

For a smaller table and smaller drawing the bar type tend to get in the way and the arm type is more maneuverable. On a small drawing the scales are going to be pretty much the width of the velum so you don't have to worry about trying to maintain a straight line from one end of the velum to the other.

I have never had rubbing problems with either.

The elbow of the arm type will hang over the edge of the table most of the time so that may be of concern if there is something directly next to your table.

I prefer the clear scales as opposed to anything opaque. It is much easier to measure when you can see the tick mark over the reference line rather than just next to the line.