Oh no I won the auction. What do I do now?

[John Shuk]

I bid I almost didn't mean to win. What do I do now. I just couldn't resist the call of the cast iron. LOML doesn't know yet. Where am I gonna start. The good news is it was $610.00 and I have a couple of people I know with alot of experience and knowledge about electric motors and what will work or not. I hope I can draw on some of the knowledge here as well. I don't have 3 phase so gotta change that. What am I gonna do? Not sure if this is a gloat or not but it is gonna be a project.

[Ted Shrader]

John -

Congratulations. It definitely is a gloat. Can you use the "It just followed me home. Can I keep it?" appoach.

How are you going to get it from where it is now to and into your shop?

Congarts,
Ted

[Rob Russell]

Before you go replacing the motor, get a Variable Frequency Drive for it. The VFD will handle single to 3-phase power conversion and means you won't have to mess with motor mounting, etc. Dealers Electric has some decent prices and you can do well on ebay too.

How many HP is the motor?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John.........congrats!.......it looks like a pillow and cot mattress might fit it! :eek: :D
Good luck!

[John Shuk]

3 hp motor 3 phase. Seller says it won't start and he thinks it's the switch but can't rule out motor.

[John Shuk]

Here is the description on Ebay. I was thinking that if the cast iron is good that is the most important thing.
Yates American#10 12" Jointer 72" bed, Ser# R-3344

72" bed, 3 knives, 3hp, 220v, 7.6amp, 3phase,

Massive direct drive motor: Westinghouse 3450rpm, frame# 726A, motor S#5846830

Does not run. Most likely switch is bad although I cannot rule out motor.

SELLING AS IS!

It is a couple of hours from here so a trailer will do the trick. Just have to get it on and off. It is in Souderton, PA

[John Shuk]

I feel a little quesy.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I feel a little quesy.

Price out a MiniMax FS30 (http://www.minimax-usa.com/jointer-planer/fs30.html) - you'll feel much better.

Nice jointer btw. :)

[Mac McAtee]

If it is the motor you can have it rewound by a motor shop. But, 3 ph motors are workhorses and it is unlikely that it will be the problem.

As old as it is you would have to be a very lucky person to find a single phase motor to fit it. Best bet is the VFD option, they work like a charm, just make sure that the one you get can convert single to three phase. Some older ones cannot.

[Wes Newman]

John,
That feeling that you have is buyers remorse. It will go away after a few good beatings by the Mrs.;)

[Scott Loven]

What about a phase converter? You can buy a kit of of ebay for a few$$, Hope your shop isnt in the basement!

[John Shuk]

What about a phase converter? You can buy a kit of of ebay for a few$$, Hope your shop isnt in the basement!
That's the rub. It is in the basement. I could always keep the jointer in the garage. I just got so caught up that I wasn't thinking straight. I also look at it as a challenge and might just refurbish the machine on "SPEC". I will have to get this beast here and think about what to do next. I am thinking phase converter as well. What is more cost effective a converter or the VFD?

[John Shuk]

What about a conversion to a belt drive? Any thoughts? I've seen Baldor motors on EBAY 3hp single phase that sell for $75.00 They claim they are new in box. Feedback review suggests that people are happy with them. I have a feeling that I am going to be learning quite a bit from this project.

[Karl Laustrup]

How about a conning tower, a few model airplanes, and some model sailors, put a number on it and call it a model aircraft carrier.:D Land based of course.;)

Hey John, just trying to help with the war department.:eek:

Seriously, I think once you get that puppy up and running you'll have a grin from ear to ear.

Enjoy!

[James Carmichael]

How about a conning tower, a few model airplanes, and some model sailors, put a number on it and call it a model aircraft carrier.:D Land based of course.;)

Enjoy!

LOL, just one problem Karl: they don't call flattops "bomb magnets" for nothing!

Congrats, John, that looks like gloat to me.

First project for the new jointer: A nice doghouse with accommodations for the dog and you. If you don't have a dog, maybe you should adopt one for company :D At least it will be made up of nice, wide boards that are good and square.

[Scott Loven]

Talk to the people at Old WoodWorking Machines (http://www.owwm.com/)
I am sure they can help you with your chalange! I would think that a phase converter would be much cheaper than a VFD. The motor looks like it was designed for that jointer, so you cant replace it with just any motor.
Scott

[Steve Jenkins]

I wouldn't consider replacing with a belt drive. If the motor is shot (doubtful) have it rewound and use either a vfd or phase convertor.

[Rob Russell]

John,

A couple of things.

First, if this jointer is direct drive, I doubt that you want to mess with converting it to belt drive. That means fabricating a mounting system for the motor, mounting a drive pulley on the jointer head shaft, making a belt guard, etc. It's going to be a lot easier to just generate 3-phase power for the machine. I agree with the earlier comments about 3-phase motors being workhorses. If need be, you can have the motor rebuilt, but I wouldn't worry about that being the case.

Let me try to explain in a bit more detail what your 3-phase options are and make a comment about basement workshops. You can get a Variable Frequency Drive for the machine or build/buy a phase convertor. There are pros and cons to each approach.

A VFD takes AC power, charges an internal DC bus, and then uses electronics to pull power from that DC bus and create 3-phase AC output. Many VFDs can take single phase 240v input (to charge the DC bus) and then generate 3-phase output. Something else is that 3-phase motors are frequency sensitive. Feed it a 60 HZ signal and it spins at the nameplate RPM (nominally either 1800 or 3600 RPM). Change the frequency and the motor turns slower or faster in proportion to the frequency's relation to 60 Hz. For example, set the VFD to 50 Hz and the motor will spin about 16% slower. Set the frequency to 75 Hz and the motor will spin 25% faster. The variable part isn't a big deal to you right now, what's important is that this little box of electronics will generate the 3-phase for you. One note - you use the VFD to start and stop the machine, leaving your jointer "On". VFDs also include things like dynamic braking so you can program in how long you want the motor to take to stop. In other words, hit "stop" and the motor spins down in 3 seconds instead of coasting for 15 or 20 seconds based on the mass of the cutterhead. A VFD can only run 1 machine at a time.

The other option is a phase convertor.

For our purposes, there are 3 types of phase convertors - digital, static and rotary. Digital Convertors. We can rule digital convertors out. They cost more than you spent on the jointer, although they do provide clean and balanced power.
Static Convertors. A static convertor is basically just a relay (fancy switch) and a start capacitor. Once a 240v 3-phase motor is spinning, it will run on 240v single phase power - but at about 50% power. You could even test your motor by getting a start capacitor and appropriate switches (1 on/off, 1 for the start cap) and run the machine as a 1 1/2HP jointer. A static convertor is a single machine convertor.
Rotary Phase Convertors (RPC). Given that a 3-phase motor will run on single phase power once it's started, you can use an extra 3-phase motor as a rotary phase convertor. Once started, that "idler" motor will generate the 3rd leg. You can add run capacitors to better balance the current and voltage loads between the 3 legs. An RPC is the sort of thing you could build yourself if you want to spend the time researching how, buy a panel kit on ebay or just buy a fully functional RPC. A RPC will run 80% to 95% efficient, depending on how well it's balanced. RPC's can run multiple machines simultaneously, and the cumulative HP of those machines can be up to 2 or 3 times the size of the idler motor and can start a machine up to the size of the idler, depending on the start load.


The cheapest solution is a static phase convertor. A static convertor is sized to the motor HP (bigger motor means bigger capacitor(s)), so you'd buy something like a 1 to 3 or 3 to 5 HP static convertor. A static convertor is under $100.

VFDs are an exellent option and the price on VFDs has come down over time (as is true with anything electronic). One real advantage of the VFD is that you can move it from machine to machine simply by putting a pair of twistlock plugs on it and literally moving it around. It would mean that you could buy other machines up to 3HP and run those, which may fit well with your tool buying plans. An example of where a VFD would be really useful is on a drill press. By dropping the frequency, you can slow the DP down. Buy a big ole honker 3-phase floor drill press at auction that has a slowest spindle speed of 400 RPM. Put the VFD on, drop the frequency to 30 or 35 Hz and spin the DP at 200-250 RPM - perfect for large forstner bits. There are issues with running some motors at slow speeds for a long time, but a few holes isn't going to do anything. A 3HP VFD will run, new, about $300 from Dealers Electric (http://www.dealerselectric.com/). Go to their section on Teco Westinghouse drives, the FM100 series.

The most flexible, and in some ways most complicated, method is a RPC. You get the ability to run multiple machines and at close to full power. To do it "right", you also need to have a distribution system - a 3-phase breaker panel. That's simply like your home panel with an extra bus and the breakers have 3 section to them. You can get a 5 HP RPC for around $400 or larger for not a lot more. I don't like the idea of running a machine from a RPC just by plugging it in to the RPC - there's no overload protection sized to the machine's motor. Some machines (like mine) have overload protection built-in, but your old jointer won't.

Lastly - a basement shop doesn't mean you can't have your jointer down with your workshop. Here's a link to another SMC thread that discussed combination machines. Thread link (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11989&page=3&pp=15). You can see from the pics in my post that's it's entirely possible to get large, heavy machinery down a hatchway into a basement. As a point of reference, my jointer/planer is a 20" jointer, 7' long and weighs 1500-1600 pounds. You'd need to measure the clearance in your hatchway with the motor hanging off the back of your jointer. Worse case is that you'd need to remove the motor and rebolt it on down in the basement.

I hope this gives you some more info to mull over.

Rob

[Chris Daigh]

John, when ever you mix Ebay with tools, crazy things happen. My weakness is Ebay and wood, ok Ebay and anything. Show the wife who wears the pants. OK lie and tell her it is such a great deal you couldn't pass it up, just don't tell her it doesn't run. You'll be fine in a few weeks. Please post her response.

[Fred Voorhees]

John,
That feeling that you have is buyers remorse. It will go away after a few good beatings by the Mrs.;)

Wes, not to highjack this thread, but has anyone ever told you that you look like country music star Brad Paisley? The resemblance is striking!

[John Shuk]

Rob,
That is some awesome information you gave me. Your basement shop is exactly like mine with the Bilco door. It is heartening to see what you put down there. I also have access to a large derrick with a secondary bed winch and was thinking of using that to get it into the basement. My friends father has a RPC he built with a WW ONE! surplus motor that is about 2 feet in diameter. He is an amazing guy and another wealth of knowledge. My plan is to get the machine here from Pa. then put it in the garage to work on and test the motor and such. I may even take the motor off and bring it to my buddies and test on his 3 phase power. I have to ask. Does it look like I might wind up with a butt kicking jointer for about $1200? Do you think this is a worthwhile project? I am looking forward to bringing some new life into this old dinosaur. I think there is something about a jointer that makes it one of the more satisfying machines in the shop. Dare I call it elegant?

[Charles McKinley]

Hi John,

It sounds like you have a good tutor. Build a RPC. Last I heard used 3 phase motors were about $10 per HP. I have about a grand in my 16" Cresent that is older and missing the guard. Relax as long as you won't miss a mortgage payment over it you did well. The adventure brgins.

[Jim Becker]

Does it look like I might wind up with a butt kicking jointer for about $1200?
Yea, it does. And I know you'll very quickly learn why some of us constantly praise wide jointers...it opens a lot of doors for being creative with lumber. Despite the "scrutiny" of the boss and the efforts necessary to restore and move the machine into your shop, I think you did a good thing taking advantage of a rare opportunity.

Before I scored the FS350, I almost got my hands on a Northfield from the local community college. They were successful in getting a big grant to redo the entire shop. The old 12" jointer had been spoken for, but the individual was being "really slow" about consumating the deal. They offered it to me if he didn't complete the transaction in a week. Unfortunately, he showed up. In retrospect, for my shop, I ended up with the right machine for my needs, but certainly would have enjoyed restoring and using a classic hunk of iron.

[John Shuk]

Hi John,

It sounds like you have a good tutor. Build a RPC. Last I heard used 3 phase motors were about $10 per HP. I have about a grand in my 16" Cresent that is older and missing the guard. Relax as long as you won't miss a mortgage payment over it you did well. The adventure brgins.
It won't break the bank and the mortgage will be paid. I told my wife today and I think eventually she will talk to me again without raising her voice. I'm looking forward to this project. I am going to curtail my tool buying for a while I think.....at least for today. Do accessories count as tools? I think she will someday forgive me but there was NO WAY she would have given permission. I think we can all see the lesson here.

[Rob Russell]

John,

The only thing you should be "concerned" about is if the jointer has a square head. If it does, you definely want to replace it with a round head. The reason is kickback and I've read in other forums that knives in the square heads could loosen more easily an fly out (not a good thing). The machine may have babbit-style bearings, but those can easily be rebuilt (again - from reading on other forums).

What you bought is a piece of vintage American woodworking equipment. You'll probably spend some time and $ getting it working perfectly, but once done it should run extremely smoothly because of all the weight and that's a good thing.

Rob

[Steven Wilson]

For one device the VFD will be more cost effective. If you're thinking phase converter then forget a static phase converter and consider a rotary phase converter. If you're considering adding a number of three phase devices then something like a Kay Industries phase converter would be the ticket; not cheap though! A decent VFD would be usefull on a jointer. Besides, if you end up going with the VFD now and then decide on a phase converter later then you can always use the VFD to provide speed control to a drill press or lathe.

[mike lucas]

I know with the old (30`s-60`s) DeWalt radial arm saw`s the 3 phase motors could easily be switched over to single phase, but not the other way around. It was cheaper to make one motor then two. The 7.5 hp motors became 5 hp motors on single phase, 5 hp was 3 hp, and 3 hp was 2 hp, 2 hp was 1 1/2 hp.

Maybe other compaies did the same thing. (To bad they don't all do that!) If so, a 3 hp motor on 3 phase, would be a 2 hp motor on single phase.

[Wade McDonald]

I might suggest the phase converter over a VFD for this use for 2 reasons: 1) you don't need variable speed on a jointer, and 2) VFDs can be tough on motors, and you don't want to burn it up, as there is likely no relacement, just rewinding. To check if burnt out, you can probably just look at the windings for signs of burnt insulation/varnish.

Buyers remorse- perhaps good here? I don't know how much trouble getting it in your basement is gonna be, but this probly weighs 1200 lbs +. You could always offer the seller say $100-$150 and ask them to reauction it. Are you ever going to move? Not to say this tool isn't gloatworthy and worth a lot of trouble, but there should be a limit. If it needs refurbishing that you can't do, how do you take it in?... If it wasn't a matter of the basement I wouldn't mention this, but it suddenly becomes "landlocked." Just know what you're getting into.

Wade

[Rob Russell]

I might suggest the phase converter over a VFD for this use for 2 reasons: 1) you don't need variable speed on a jointer, and 2) VFDs can be tough on motors, and you don't want to burn it up, as there is likely no relacement, just rewinding. To check if burnt out, you can probably just look at the windings for signs of burnt insulation/varnish.

Why do you say that VFD's can "tough on motors"? I know that if John were running an old motor at low frequencies (and therefore lower RPM), overheating could be an issue. I'd be interested to know what else could cause problems for an older motor.



Buyers remorse- perhaps good here? I don't know how much trouble getting it in your basement is gonna be, but this probly weighs 1200 lbs +. You could always offer the seller say $100-$150 and ask them to reauction it. Are you ever going to move? Not to say this tool isn't gloatworthy and worth a lot of trouble, but there should be a limit. If it needs refurbishing that you can't do, how do you take it in?... If it wasn't a matter of the basement I wouldn't mention this, but it suddenly becomes "landlocked." Just know what you're getting into.

Moving the jointer out of the basement becomes the reverse of getting it down, you just need winches that are rated for the weight of pulling the weight up the stairs instead of controlling a slide down (depending on the move method you use).

Rob

[Alan Turner]

Congrats! You will love having the old iron. Don't even think of reauctioning it. I got my old 12" down the stairs, in pieces. The cast base was about 600#, and 4 strong guys had no trouble with it (I was not one of them). While it was apart, I cleaned it up, and when it went back together, it did so, right on, with no shims.
Mine had already been converted to a belt drive single phase. There is almost no tool in my shop I like more than that old jointer. I put a Byrd head on it this past summer, and in terms of your bride, I do believe that a new head is only an accessory, not a tool, so it does not count as a tool in any such discussion, and for sure does not go against your tool budget.
Alan

[Matt Woodworth]

You bought that? I was looking at it every day. I just couldn't pull the trigger because I'm so far away and I already have a perfectly fine 8" jointer. Still, you have something special. Keep us updated on how it goes.

[Wade McDonald]

Why do you say that VFD's can "tough on motors"? I know that if John were running an old motor at low frequencies (and therefore lower RPM), overheating could be an issue. I'd be interested to know what else could cause problems for an older motor.


Moving the jointer out of the basement becomes the reverse of getting it down, you just need winches that are rated for the weight of pulling the weight up the stairs instead of controlling a slide down (depending on the move method you use).

Rob
I've researched a bit before implementing VFDs in my shop. I think they're the way to go for many tools, and I actually plan on converting some single to 3 phase motors for the variable speed, though I'm not quite there yet- so this isn't from practical experience. One technical reason has to do with the high frequency switching causing high voltage spikes which can exceed the voltage rating of insulation; at some point insulation technology improved and voltage ratings became uniform and higher. A great resource is the practical machinist VFD/RPC forum (first link); this gets responses from VFD designers and other EEs in the industry. The second link is a thread for "VFD old motor" and has some discussion of certain issues with older motors and ways to mitigate them, though other threads discuss even more issues and may seem a bit less rosy.

If it weren't direct drive, I wouldn't think twice about using a VFD, though I would clean the motor up some- heck cleaning makes sense even if you gets yer 3 phase from the utility co. Since it is direct drive, any motor risk matters more, though the link lists ways to further mitigate the risk. I seem to recall some other issues too, even at full speed, but the consensus is if you don't push the motor often you're probably ok. If the motor lists a high service factor, that should be enough, else you could set the VFD output limit a bit lower than the amp rating on the motor plate; lose some small portion of hp for peace of mind.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000614#000014


On moving- I assumed as much. My impression is that it would still be a major hassle to move it in or out, but maybe its really no big deal once you're set up; heck maybe its all in the eye of the beholder;). I can think of many reasons it would have to be removed to be rehabbed. But- after reading the auction listing Q and A most of the major issues are addressed. Perhaps my skepticism was partially unwarranted. Though until it cuts wood properly, you can't be sure. Personally, me not put cast iron beast in a basement less'n I feel pretty durn good about condition. (BTW- while auction listing estimated 800 lbs, which is fine for an import 12", it seems WAY off for a USA cast iron beast- plan for hoisting 1200- 1500 lbs IMHO.) Someone else's risk tolerance may be different.

[Sparky Paessler]

Rob

I just recently bought a jointer simular to yours. I also put it in the basement. I moved it in there by myself. Was able to take the tables off and carry them in and then wreasle the base down the ramp. I changed out the 5 HP three phase motor to a 3 HP single phase motor I got from Harbor Freight. Yours looks like it has ball bearings instead of babbit like mine. Have fun with it. I love mine.

You can see mine at Fay & Egan (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15237)

[John Shuk]

Rob

I just recently bought a jointer simular to yours. I also put it in the basement. I moved it in there by myself. Was able to take the tables off and carry them in and then wreasle the base down the ramp. I changed out the 5 HP three phase motor to a 3 HP single phase motor I got from Harbor Freight. Yours looks like it has ball bearings instead of babbit like mine. Have fun with it. I love mine.

You can see mine at Fay & Egan (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=15237)

Sparky,
It does have ball bearings. I have spoken with the seller and he has had the tables off as well as the motor. It was used about a year ago. I plan on putting the machine in my ground level garage then when I get it going to my satisfaction down She'll go.