Mail Order or "Local"

[John Bailey]

As a newly retired guy building a new shop, I'm in the market for a bandsaw, planer, jointer, drill press and cyclone. Having worked almost entirely with hand tools in the past, I'm not too familiar with the value of the different brands of machinery. The Grizzly's seem to be the best in price, and they seem to be the same machines as other vendor's, with minor differences. My closest "local" store is 180 mi. away. I can pick up General and General International there. However, the price will be between $302 and $626 more for the General and General International, depending on whether or not I decide to make a field trip to pick up Grizzly machines, which is about 1200 mi. round trip, and forego the shipping. The General International machines seem to be put together a bit better - cast iron wheels on the bandsaw, longer bed on the jointer, etc. - but I wonder if it is really worth the difference to go "local." Any advice?

John

[Mike Circo]

Well, 180 miles is hardly "local" but...

A good local company is worth its cost. My examples: My local Woodcraft swapped two Jet bandsaws then a Jet for a Delta eventually until I got one that didn't break or cut poorly (EXCELLENT service by them). Each swap took all of 15 minutes and I got to talk with some fellow woodworkers. They also ordered my jointer, notified me when it came, checked it out for damage/issues and helped load it in my van. I got to pick it up on my schedule, not theirs.

Shipping really big stuff is a hassle. If you have the time and desire to coordinate all the steps and proper trucks and handling issues, AND the risks of damage by ham-fisted handlers, then long distance delivery is okay. Just be prepared to invest extra time in assuring all is well.

Caviet. I work full time and am a single parent of two active teens. My time is of the utmost value. Having quick and easy assistance with all aspects of my purchase were very important to me.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi John

I almost always buy local when possible. However, "local" for you doesn't seem to be much better than mail order. It is all going to boil down to service after the sale. The best price in the world is no good if the service people fall down on the job. The same goes if they are nice but can't get the parts you need. If I were in your position, I think I would go with mail order, although for larger machinery, be prepared for what the trained baboons of the common carriers will do to your boxes. In either case, it seems to me that you will have to do some prep work for delivery whether you get it yourself or have it delivered, so again, I think you might as well go mail order.

Good luck with it.

Bill

[Doug Shepard]

Well I'm guessing that the Grizzly outlet you're referring to is in Missouri. I just checked and they have 4.225% sales tax, which you're going to have to pay if you purchase it there. If you go mail order, there's the shipping costs, but no sales tax (unless you're abnormally honest and report a Use Tax on your state tax return). Just one more factor to consider.
There's a lot to be said for local sellers if you run into problems or setup issues. Most buys go off without a hitch and don't need the local support. The shipping can also be a hassle, but most of the time that's pretty idiotproof too. Depends on who you buy from and what carrier they use. My PM66 TS was delivered via FedEx Liftgate Service and couldn't have been simpler, but I can imagine the headache involved if something was wrong and I had to ship it back. If you're torn on the local vs. mail-order issue for support reasons, of the tools you've got listed, I'd concentrate on the heavier (the ones that cost the most to ship back) pieces or the ones that may need more setup support (joiner & maybe bandsaw). The others aren't likely to need much in the way of setup help.

[John Bailey]

Mike,

While 180 mi. seems to be a hike, I drive through that area often, have stopped in the store a time or two, and have begun to start a working relationship with one of the salesmen. So, although it's a long drive, it's the best I'm going to do, and I can pick the machines up personally with some of the advantages you mention.

John

[Keith Christopher]

I always buy local when possible because I want to support local business that support me.

[Darren Ford]

John, as an alternative to Grizzly, you might look for a ShopFox dealer. They are generally smaller businesses and you might have one closer and not know it. ShopFox is a brand of Grizzly, with a dealership network. General consensus is ShopFox is a slight step up from Grizzly and usually has double the warranty of the equivalent Grizzly version.

[Tom LaRussa]

ShopFox is a brand of Grizzly, with a dealership network.
It is? :eek: :confused:

[Ted Shrader]

John -

I'm with Bill on this one. I try to buy locally if at all possible. Helps to keep the businesses in place for continued shopping. However, if there is nothing you want available locally, the choice is out of your hands.

In this case, since you are making a pretty big buy of multiple machines at once, look look at the trip as a vacation, then the trip costs won't weigh against the shipping. You will have the opportunity to touch the machines you are considering and inspect the ones you are actually getting prior to taking delivery. (Applies to both General and Grizzly.)

Have fun choosing,

Ted

[Tom LaRussa]

My closest "local" store is 180 mi. away. I can pick up General and General International there. However, the price will be between $302 and $626 more for the General and General International, depending on whether or not I decide to make a field trip to pick up Grizzly machines, which is about 1200 mi. round trip, and forego the shipping.
Hi John,

This is JMHO, but I'd quickly narrow it down to two possibilities:

[1] Grizzly (and have it shipped or wait for the spring thaw)

[2] Get the General -- not the General International.

My reasoning:

If you are choosing based on price, then simply look for the best deal for your money, which is Grizz. I (and many others here) have the 14" G0555 Ultimate Bandsaw and simply love the thing. You'll also find many very happy owners of late-model Grizz jointers and table saws on this forum. I don't know that Gen Int'l will give you much more bang for the buck than Grizz, and their customer service is really quite good.

On the other hand, if you want top quality, then skip over the Chinese-made General Int'l and go for the real General, i.e., the ones made in Canada. From everything I've heard the real General products are up there in quality with the best Euro machines.

BTW, it must be pretty scenic in your area, eh? :eek: :D :)

[Harish C. Mathur]

I know that I am bucking the trend... But I prefer to go mailorder when I can. Particularly for big purchases. For example, I bought my powermatic 66 from Tool Crib. They matched the best price I could find on the net (I don't remember the price... but I think it was a couple of hundred less than buying locally), no sales tax and shipping to my door was free. The delivery company had a lift gate and moved the boxes to exactly where I wanted them in my shop). Saved me the hassle of finding help to get the saw or arrange for delivery.

The point on being able to get local service is a good one. If you have a problem, it is nice to be able to call. However, in my case the saw was missing parts and the wooden table had a big knot that had popped out of it. This was not due to shipping. I called PM and they shipped me the missing parts and a new table. But service will vary from company to company.

I have a few Grizzly tools and have been happy with them... But there are a lot of varying opinions on them. Have fun.

[Chris DeHut]

One thing that seems to rattle around my brain when making large machine purchases is service.

Where can you get service parts?

Does the company have a good track record of providing service parts?

How does their warrenty policy work? Do I have to send them the broken part and wait for the replacement?

When it breaks, do I have to fix the machine under warrenty, or does the company have a service center I can take the machine too for repair?

Sorry to add confusion to the purchase decision, but these items are just as important as most of the other features we look at in a machine or tool.

Chris DeHut

[John Bailey]

Darren,

I've seen the Shop Fox brand much closer to where I live. I've only seen the smaller equipment and the shops are not full-fledged woodworking stores. They are usually a general hardwarestore that doesn't really offer a full range of services. I would have to special order a 17" bandsaw, for instance, and I haven't seen any floor model planers or jointers. I usually just see a 14" bandsaw and benchtop planers and jointers. I'd like to be able to see a wide range of possibilities. BTW, I'm in Northern Lower Michigan, maybe someone knows of a closer shop.

John

[John Shuk]

I have family in Elk Rapids and I think there is an equipment dealer in Traverse city. My uncle is an accomplished woodworker but i'm not sure where he buys.

[Mark Blumer]

John,

As a fellow Michigander (I not only know where East Jordan is, I have been there!), I can recommend two places to look at ww machinery. Both of them have an excellent selection and reasonable prices. Sometimes you can beat them on the internet and sometimes not but it is nice to be able to see the products up close and sometimes even compare competitive brands side by side (I was able to do that when I picked out my floor standing mortiser).

The first is in Grand Rapids and is called Cabinet Makers Supply Co, on 29th street. They have a huge selection of tools including General.

The second is Johnsons Workbench in Charlotte (about 15 miles south of Lansing). Johnsons is where I bought my PM66 saw, and my Delta 15" planer. They too have a huge selection and they are also a hardwood lumber mill that has been around for over 100 years. They also have the added advantage that if you choose to go there, you will be within 20 miles of my house and could stop by for a cup of coffee and some show and tell.

Mark Blumer (East Lansing, MI)

[Dave Right]

If you are considering picking up at Grizzly, ( Springfield Mo is 828 mi one way and Muncy Pa is 705 miles one way) then be sure where everything is coming from.
I recently ordered a bunch from Grizzly and was going to pick it up all myself
in Muncy Pa which was the closest for me. Good thing I did not just go and figure everything would be there. Some was shipped from Springfield and some from Muncy Pa! When I figured my pickup cost vs delivered cost and time on the road, I would save about $100. Not worth the 14 hour drive!

[John Bailey]

Tom,

Cabinet Makers Supply Company is the store 180 mi. from me that I mentioned. I go through Grand Rapids often as I'm in Chicago alot and my home town is South Haven. Both are through Grand Rapids when I go. It's been yrs. since I've been to Johnson's. I used to go there often because it was the only place I know of that had a supply of "Wormy Chestnut." Wormy Chestnut makes great dulcimers. I didn't recall that Johnson's had many tools back then (about 20 yrs.). In fact, I think, now that I'm shaking my brain a bit, they may have a store in Grand Rapids also. Guess my next trip to Chicago may be a long one.

John

John

[Darren Ford]

John,

Hope this reply doesn't post twice, I flubbed it the first time and now have to retype it. I can assure you my first version, the one that I lost, was far more eloquent and informative :)

I'm not sure how to find ShopFox dealers, corporate info is hard to find. I would call Grizzly and ask them. The founder and president of Grizzly (or at least someone claiming to be) frequents some of the woodworking messageboards (not sure about this one). If you strick out by calling, we might be able to get him to point us in the right direction.

Your observations mirror mine, my local ShopFox dealer is an extremely small business, although he usually does have 4-6 floor standing machines on display (including the floor standing jointer). He can also order anything ShopFox makes. He got a radial drill press for me, and his first quoted price was right in line with mail order. I don't know if there are price restrictions or not.

[John Bailey]

Tom,

I considered the General brand, but I just couldn't afford the prices. If I could, there would be a lot of other brands I would be considering. Maybe I'll win the lotto!!

Yes, I live in a scenic area. 20 wooded acres, year-round stream, (with appropriate sauna) high over looking the Jordan River Valley. Also, I've got a very large, straight Maple that needs to be harvested, and a couple of Cherry trees. It's heaven!!

John

[John Bailey]

Ted,

That's a good point. However, I probably won't have the money immediately to buy everything a one time. If I do that with a road trip, I'll be saving for a few extra months before I buy. Bought locally, with no shipping, I can buy a piece at a time and get to work. I'm used to doing without, so either way won't matter a lot.

John

[Ken Garlock]

The real question is where do you get the most for your dollar. I have bought all my major power tools by mail order.

Built my cyclone dust collector from a kit (Colorado), motor is American made but bought from a company in Michigan, and the blower impeller from Canada.

Bought my Bandsaw from Mini Max is made in Italy, and distributed from Austin Tx.

Bought my Cabinet saw from Wilke Machinery in Pennsylvania.

Bought my 8" jointer from Sunhill Machinery in Seattle Washington.

I will most likely buy my planer from either Wilke Machinery(Yorkcraft) in Pa. or from Wood Master in Kansas City Kansas.

Am I worried about parts and service, not in the least. Each company enjoys a good reputation in the market place, and their customer service is a strong point.

Why did I choose them? I spent time researching the tool I was interested in buying, and came to the conclusion that the companies above have the best features at the best price.

For example, Wilke has the Bridgewood 10LTS in their show room setting next to a Powermatic 66 for comparison. Why pay $2500 for a tool when one of comparable quality can be had for $1400?

My jointer is a Geetec 8" 2 hp.(Yes it is from Taiwan via Sunhill) that as far as I am concerned is a better tool than the famous DJ-20. More horsepower, 2 hp instead of 1.5, and 4 blades instead of 3. Edges coming out of it are ready to glue.

The bandsaw is a Mini Max just because they are the best, not the cheapest. The other day I received a call from my Mini Max salesman just to touch base and see if everything was going well with the saw, and if I needed anything.

Now really, how often do you need to have a major tool repaired? In addition, would you really have some one from a local vendor work on it? My position is that I have a tool that I expect to own for a long time, hence I need to know how it works and how to fix should the need arise. These tools are orders of magnitude simpler than a car of a TV.

I am not saying that any of the above mentioned well known tools are anything other than excellent. But rather, I think I have found machinery of equal or better quality for less money. Many of your will take issue with that, and I may very well be proved wrong, but I am happy with my purchases. :)

[Jerry Olexa]

Local is Better IMHO You can touch/feel/test And when SERVICE or a return is indicated ...It's much easier. I do buy some things by mail usually specialized items or where a deal is esp attractive on a "proven winner" (I recently bought a new Bosch jigsaw for $100 this way) and filters for my DC etc. Just my opinion...

[Mike Tempel]

John, don't forget that if you order from Grizzly that you will be the one unloading their truck. They put a disclaimer that the driver will not help getting the equipment to the ground and if I remember right you must arrange for a lift gate. When my dad bought a shaper from them he had to lower it from the delivery truck into the bed of his pickup and then onto the ground - by himself. It had a damaged table top and Griz quickly replaced it - good service. I seem to be better off going and putting my hands on something before I buy it. If you are already driving 180 miles then look around as there might be another dealer within that driving range. Whatever you get good luck with it and keep us posted.

[Darren Ford]

Mike, you bring up a good point. I have bought mail order equipment before, but its always small enough to be delivered by FedEx or UPS. Our drivers are wonderful and would help any way they could. I have been afraid to order big equipment because of the logistics involved; you need at least 2 people to unload, how can you arrange someone to be there when you don't know when the delivery will be? Also, freight companies always ask if a semi can get to your house, gosh I don't know. I sure couldn't get one to my house, but someone who knows how to drive one might be able to.

When I eventually do order a large piece, I will go to the terminal and pick it up myself, that way I can control at least some aspect of it.

[Scott Loven]

FYI I just saw where Amazon is offering free lift gate + free shipping on big tools

[Steve Ash]

I'll just add the website for Johnson's that Mark Blumer mentioned. It is my local store...I live 4 miles from it, yep it's like a kid in a candy store for me when it is so close. www.theworkbench.com (http://www.theworkbench.com/)

[Dave Rizzolo]

John,

I don't know what your intrest in Shop Fox is, but my local dealer is ML Woodcutters in Brighton, MI. http://www.mlwoodcutters.com/ Quite a distance from you, but if your ever in the Ann Arbor Area, it's a nice place to stop a look around.

-Dave

[Ken Salisbury]

John,

Since you are interested in buying multiple machines, another alternative is to contact General Industrial Supply in Nashville (1-800-371-2220). They primarily sell Jet and Powermatic. Both new and "scratch and dent". I have purchased lots of stuff from them, both new and S&D and have never been disappointed. If you call ask to speak to Rick Warren (owner). Visit their website (http://www.generalindustrialsupp.com/)