Domino V/S Horizontal Mortiser Station

[Chris Jackson]

Each year I have one opportunity to purchase new tools in the spring around April. This year I will be able to purchase one tool and I have decided that it will either be a Festool Domino or a dedicated Horizontal Mortiser Station (Grizzly or the like).

Looking for an opinion on the wiser purchase, maybe an angle I'm not examining...

Considerations are as follows:


Most of my work is Cabinets/Boxes (Krenov Style) or houshold furniture items (coffee tables, shelving, etc...).
Currently I do a lot of handcut mortise/tenon joints and occasionally use my benchtop hollow chisel mortiser for through mortises on furniture pieces.
Looking to do more "loose tenon" type joinery specifically table/stand aprons, etc...
Cost is always an issue...but can certainly be outweighed by quality (budget for this purchase is less than $1500).
Mobility is not required, all my work is done at home in shop.
Space is limited but I do have enough floor space left for about a 3' x 3' stationary machine.
That said I'm leaning toward the stationary unit, based on the significant cost difference and I really do not need the added mobility. However, I LOVE Festool products, their dust collection, quiet running and quality build.

But I also love the "in tune" atmosphere, and closeness to the work you get with a very old school stationary machine like a horizontal bore.


Questions are:


Your recommendation Domino or Horizontal Mortiser Machine.
Source for loose tenons if I do go with a Horizontal Mortiser (Festool obviously sells ones for the domino).
Recommendations of Horizontal Mortisers other than Grizzly...I have not seen many others on the market, and a $3000 commercial one is not in my budget.
Thanks for the help!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I don't have a lot of experience with either set-up, but here are some observations for you consideration:

1) Resale value of Festool tools -- they seem to hold almost all of their value on the used market...buy and try it, if you dislike the domino system for whatever reason you can likely sell and try the stationary tool route without much risk. Its not like moving it out of the shop is an issue.

2) If you go Domino it seems (though I could be wrong) you are buying at the premium end of the technology, where as in a slot mortiser you are already up against a budget which may not allow you the machine you really desire (Hammer, Grigio or JDS Multi-Router)

3) All slot mortiser set-ups will universally make mortises with rounded inside ends...requiring you to shape the tenon stock (whether the tenon is loose or integral)...

4) A great stationary hollow chisel mortiser (PM 719T) gets you way under your budget too.

just some things to consider as you draw up pros and cons.

[John TenEyck]

You might consider building your own horizontal slot mortiser instead. Here's one I built for less than $50, sort of as an exercise to see how cheap I could make one. It cuts beautiful mortises (of any size, I might add) and dowel holes very quickly. I make my own tenon stock as well - it's not much effort. The only advantage of the Domino, IMO, is that it's portable, which would have advantages with really large or heavy parts. Other than that, it's way too expensive for my blood. It also did not fare too well in a FWW strength test review compared to loose tenons cut with a mortiser, although it's not clear why.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnTenEyck54/SlotMortiser?feat=directlink

[david brum]

Chris, I think you'll find that using loose tenons and a horizontal mortiser aren't really compatible. Mortisers excel at cutting square holes into flat, long grain pieces of wood. That works beautifully if you're using traditional mortise and tenon joinery. If you're going the loose tenon route, you still need to figure a way to cut mortises into the long grain of what otherwise would have been the tenon board. There probably is a way to set a mortiser up to do it (can't be done on mine) but it would require jigs and clamps, plus may not work well anyway. End grain is really tough. Perhaps you'd have to predrill most of the waste first? I'm sure someone who does it all the time will chime in.

Anyway, I would trade my mortiser for a domino in a NY second. From what I've seen, it looks like a much more capable, versatile device. Put me in the domino camp.

[Chris Jackson]

John, Thanks for the reply! Yours looks much like the one described in a Shop Notes issue out there, might be#68?? I had thought of this with some minor tweaks to make it a bit more rugged (Ball Bearing Slides, buy myself an extra dedicated router base, etc...). Where did you get your plans? Would you mind sharing your methods for creating Tenon stock?

[Chris Jackson]

Chris, I think you'll find that using loose tenons and a horizontal mortiser aren't really compatible. Mortisers excel at cutting square holes into flat, long grain pieces of wood. That works beautifully if you're using traditional mortise and tenon joinery. If you're going the loose tenon route, you still need to figure a way to cut mortises into the long grain of what otherwise would have been the tenon board. There probably is a way to set a mortiser up to do it (can't be done on mine) but it would require jigs and clamps, plus may not work well anyway. End grain is really tough. Perhaps you'd have to predrill most of the waste first? I'm sure someone who does it all the time will chime in.

Anyway, I would trade my mortiser for a domino in a NY second. From what I've seen, it looks like a much more capable, versatile device. Put me in the domino camp.

DB, I think you are confusing a horizontal mortiser with a vertical or hollow chisel unit. I am talking about the purchase of a deidcated horizontal unit which is specifically designed for the purposes of boring end grain. Take a look at a Grizzly G0540 and you'll see the kind of machines we're discussing here. Thanks for your input though.

Chris

[Alex Sauvage]

You might consider building your own horizontal slot mortiser instead. Here's one I built for less than $50, sort of as an exercise to see how cheap I could make one. It cuts beautiful mortises (of any size, I might add) and dowel holes very quickly. I make my own tenon stock as well - it's not much effort. The only advantage of the Domino, IMO, is that it's portable, which would have advantages with really large or heavy parts. Other than that, it's way too expensive for my blood. It also did not fare too well in a FWW strength test review compared to loose tenons cut with a mortiser, although it's not clear why.

http://picasaweb.google.com/JohnTenEyck54/SlotMortiser?feat=directlink

Wauu.. this is very impressive! Just looking at it, makes me want to go and make one. Is there any specific design that you followed or it's all you idea?
Any possible pitfalls or things one might be careful about when making it?
As far as loose tenons go, I believe there was an article a couple of months ago in Wood ??? magazine. Basically rip to full width, plane, round edges on router table and crosscut. It's probably easy to make a couple of dozens of loose tenons in one go since set up probably will take most of the time.

[Jeff Duncan]

[QUOTE=david brum;1613846]Chris, I think you'll find that using loose tenons and a horizontal mortiser aren't really compatible. Mortisers excel at cutting square holes into flat, long grain pieces of wood.

Huh??? Horizontal slot mortisers ARE for loose tenons, they do NOT cut square holes. Not sure where you got that information but it's certainly not true.

I don't believe Grizzly makes a horizontal slot mortiser yet, and I should emphasize yet as it's only a matter of time:>) They do sell a horizontal boring machine which can be used for dowel construction, but that's a different type of joint I don't believe your looking for?

In your budget you will want to focus on the lesser expensive machines sold by Felder and I believe Laguna makes one also. Not necessarily high end machines, but will likely do what you need them too. As for the tenons themselves....you make them. Essentially you fabricate tenon stock out of scrap from the project. I usually make it up in easy to handle lengths like say 4' or so, then cut lengths as I need them for a given project.

I thought about the Festool myself as it seems like it would be very handy to route out slots quickly and easily. I did end up with a slot mortiser however as I wanted to be able to use larger and deeper tenons than possible with the Festool, as i build a lot of interior doors. I should also add that if you go with the slot mortiser you should keep an eye out for used machines. I had 2 machines, both Bini's and recently sold the second to make some room and ended up letting it go for $800. it's a buyers market out there and you may be surprised how nice a machine you can get in your budget if your willing to go used.

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

First, I would think about what you want to make. If you want traditional joinery, or at least a modern version of it, I would go for a big hollow chisel mortiser, and a shaper to cut the tenons. I've purchased a big bridgewood mortiser, a very close cousin to the one grizzly sells for 2700 dollars, and there is no comparison to the powermatic 719 that it replaced. Accurate, easy, and fast. I've been working on my shaper setup, which is an scmi t110 with 8 inch discs. My goal is traditional mortise and tenons in very quick time. So far, I have about 1900 dollars in this setup. I feed on the bottom though, and put in time instead of dollars. This setup has taken plenty of time, as well as dinero.

That said, if you want to put things together fast, and pretty well (I'm definitely not criticizing this), how could you beat the festool offering? Super fast, accuracy built into the machine, the machine references the surfaces that matter (not true for most benchtop hollow chisel mortisers), and in my opinion, it's pretty cheap for the capability it gives you. Plus, with the 1500 dollars, you could maybe get a domino, vac, and a sander.

I better stop typing, I've been working on my taxes, and I don't want to think about this too much or else I may start spending my refund check!

[Paul Johnstone]

ok, I have the domino, and I just looked at the grizzly machine. Here's my impression.

The domino's indexing pins are a big advantage. If you are joining two pieces in a face frame, you know with the domino that they will line up.

Domino will have better dust collection.

You can use the domino to put a loose tennon in the middle of a sheet good, or anywhere.

You say you have 3' x 3' of floor space, but floor space is always at a premium.. the griz machine will require rigging roller stands or something like that for long boards, consuming more space. For long boards, you can rest them on the bench with the domino..

The griz machine looks to be a simple horizontal drill.. I'm not sure it would be that much easier to do loose tennons on this machine than it would a drill press or even a benchtop mortiser.

Your sig says you are fascinated with Festool :)

To me, the only downside to the domino is its price, but it's not that much more than the less versatile Griz machine, and apparently you have the budget for the domino. IMO, the domino is a total no brainer here.

[Richard Coers]

I have had a JDS Multirouter for at least 20 years, love it. I tried the Domino, and was not so impressed. I did not buy one, though sometimes I wish I had since the price was better at the beginning. I didn't feel really comfortable with the Domino, and thought that if I did buy one of these I would mount it to a bench for better accuracy. I didn't like the fit of the Domino splines, they seemed too tight to me. They also don't go very big. I've put in a lot of 1/2" loose tenons over the years. I like the router cut mortises better than some commercial horizontal rigs. They don't have the rpm's that the router does, so they have a rougher cut inside the mortise. Look at the plans at http://woodgears.ca/pantorouter/index.html for a homemade rig. I might consider getting a Domino and build one of these. Good luck.

[david brum]

Sorry guys. It did occur to me that I had confused horizontal with vertical, but only after I'd left the house. That's what I get for trying to communicate before I've had coffee. Please disregard.

[John Morrison60]

Said before, but most important in my mind:
"The only downside to Festool is the cost".

I have both a horizontal mortiser (attachment to my Minimax J/P) and the Domino.
I always reach for the Domino.
Easy to set up, good dust collection, and once you create a routine, almost foolproof.

Eliminates much of the drudgery of M/T joinery.

THE way to go.

John

[Van Huskey]

[QUOTE=david brum;1613846]
I don't believe Grizzly makes a horizontal slot mortiser yet, and I should emphasize yet as it's only a matter of time:>)
JeffD

I wouldn't bet on that, see: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?147803-Shiraz-please-make-a-slot-mortiser&highlight=

[Jeff Duncan]

That's funny, I vaguely remember that thread too, just forgot about the response.

I disagree about price being the only downside of the Festool, that assumes one is only doing certain types of joinery with it. Another downside is it's biggest 'tenon' is still pretty small, and not what I personally would consider adequate for say building doors or other larger projects.

Having said that I still wouldn't mind owning one for face frames and smaller projects:)


JeffD

[Matt Kestenbaum]

it's biggest 'tenon' is still pretty small, and not what I personally would consider adequate for say building doors or other larger projects. Having said that I still wouldn't mind owning one for face frames and smaller projects:) JeffD

True enough,but I believe the OP mentioned Krenovian pieces and household furniture.

[NICK BARBOZA]

I own both and believe each has it's place and excel in different areas.
I use my slot mortiser for larger/deeper mortises in furniture. I prefer to work with loose tenons, and that is why I had been looking for a slot mortiser for quite some time and finally got lucky last spring and found a used one. I got an older Laguna "V-way". Although it is an entry level machine, it has opened many doors for my joinery operations and efficiency. If at some point i can justify the cost of a more professional machine I will likely upgrade. Previously with my larger joinery I did ALOT with hand held routers and jigs for M&T.

I do use the domino regularly, but more often it is for face frames and case assembly. It has also replaced my biscuit joiner for all tasks. I use dominoes in glue ups where face alignment is critical (i.e. table tops, panels). I only have the smallest size bit for it so I do not have the full capability of the accessory kit w/ 4 bits. If I did, maybe I would reach for the domino with joints that require larger tenons.

Now that I have the slot mortiser, it has not effected the amount that i use my domino. For me they are very different tools and as I said before, each have their place. I would keep an eye on the used market for both.

Also, i dont think the Grizzly machine you mention will perform as you hope. The lateral forces produced when mortising will likely not be good for the chuck/motor on that machine. I had the same thought as you do; cheap, horizontal bit and x/y table... but was talked out of it by many here on the 'Creek for reasons already mentioned. Very glad I did!

Good luck!
NWB

[Greg Portland]

I disagree about price being the only downside of the Festool, that assumes one is only doing certain types of joinery with it. Another downside is it's biggest 'tenon' is still pretty small, and not what I personally would consider adequate for say building doors or other larger projects. You'd want to use multiple large Dominos for door joinery.

IMO the major downside to the Domino is that it only cuts Domino-sized holes. If you want attractive exposed tenons then you'll need a completely different system. I have a Domino and am very happy with the speed, ease, and strength of the joints but I also have a different system for traditional exposed tenon joinery.

[Ron Kellison]

I built the Shop Notes version several years ago and it's proven very effective over the years. I have a PC 690 router base permanently attached so it just a matter of moving the motor from the plunge base over to the horizontal router unit. The twin screw depth adjustment mechanism is very precise and holds it's settings. I think it took me about 3 hours to make it.

Regards,

Ron

[Van Huskey]

In this situation one might also want to look at the Leigh FMT.

[Erik Christensen]

I have the domino and the more I use it the more I like it. I use it for all my case work now - things are square and solid with just domino's & glue. They have a 30 day money back guarantee - next time you have a big project in the pipeline - get a domino and use the crap out of it - you don't see value in it send it back - seems like a no brainer to me

[John TenEyck]

Chris, if you go to the bottom of the page at the link below, you'll find a SketchUp drawing of my slot mortiser. The drawing might not be exactly what you saw in the pictures, but it's close. I looked at other's designs for inspiration and built my own based primarily on the two I found in FWW #141 and #174, if I remember correctly. One of those articles showed the use of T-track as guides for the sliding sleds. I've seen other designs with drawer slides, etc., but discarded them out of concern about the amount of slop they might have. Being cheap I decided to use wooden slides, and I've had no problem so far. I routed slots in the work table for securing the fences. The router plate is a piece of 1/4" double tempered hardboard, which felt as stiff to me as Lexan. The two pieces of wood under the handwheels help stiffen it. The 3" high rails under the bottom buide bars were incorporated primarily to reinforce the back and secure it at a precise 90 deg angle to the base. I carefully aligned everything as I assembled to make sure all parts were square in both planes.

Cost all in? Less than $40. The MDF came from a single 2' x 4' piece, for $10. The bolts were about $8, and the hold down clamps about $20.

The machine is very simple and easy to use. The two stops control the left/right moment for the mortise length. Mortise depth is controlled by how far the spiral router bit projects over the workpiece platform. There is no separate depth stop. You just push the table into the bit until it hits the back rest. Simple and precise. Notice that there is a low fence on the back of the work piece table. This is there to assure the work piece registers properly. The tables move smootly and have enough mass to that the router does not cause any jerkiness as the workpiece is feed into or along the bit. I'm using Onsrud spiral bits which cut very nicely. The only thing that doesn't work well with the machine is the dust collection. The pickup I installed doesn't work very well, and I definitely need to find a better solution.

A real benefit to me is that I can make any size tenon I need for a particular project, and they are cheap to make from scrap stock. I just mill some stock until it slip fits into a test mortise smoothly; I'd say 0.002" or so thinner than the mortise. Having a drum sander helps for sure, but you can do it with just a planer, too. Then I rip the stock to width. For a few pieces I just round the edges over by hand with a handplane and sandpaper. If I need a lot of tenons I round the edges over on the router table. This isn't really much of an issue as you don't want the tenon to completely fill the mortise, a 1/16" of slop is better since it allows some latitude in alignment. But you can make them fit precisely if you want. Once the edges are rounded, I just cut them to length on my radial arm saw with a stop. I make them about 1/16" shorter than the combined depth of both mortises.

Hope this helps. John

http://sites.google.com/site/jteneyckwoodworker/current-projects

[Chris Jackson]

Thank you all for the detailed input...I've got some great considerations. I'd like to steer the thread a little bit based on a few items I've heard and supply some clarifications:

-The majority of my work is in fact cabinets/boxes in the Krenov vein. Not super concerned with larger construction, what little of it I do can be accomplished by hand or with my hollow chisel unit.

-I do however have a desire to do a significant quantity of exposed tenons. As one poster commented this is another challenge for the domino.

In regard to exposed tenons, what are the best/better options out there??

[Tim Sproul]

In regard to exposed tenons, what are the best/better options out there??

IMO, the best option is square tenons/mortises for through work.

In the slot mortiser versus Domino, it is not a contest. The Domino will work with pieces that are narrow or wide, small or large. You can mortise into the edge, end or face. You can mortise in the middle of the face - try doing that with a slot mortiser. The Domino takes up 2 square feet of shop space (and probably 0 because you've already got some cabinet space somewhere for it to go into).

You can do exposed tenons with the Domino. Build the case with hidden Dominos. After assembly, mortise where you want the "through" tenons (you need to know this before mortising the hidden Dominos so hidden and through don't interfere). Insert Domino and flush cut. This is obviously just an aesthetic trick and won't provide the additional strength of a well-executed wedged through mortise/tenon.

[Rick Fisher]

I dont think its really a comparison.. There is a horizontal slot mortiser in a door plant I deal with.. it is set to make the same cut, over and over again.. Its 3 or 4 hp.. Its old, Italian, but not Bini.. ??
Anyway.. it cuts really large tennon's .. really fast.. A domino could not complete such a joint at all, and never as fast..

On an Expensive Slot mortiser.. the material stays stationary and the head of the mortiser moves.. Laguna is a great example. The $999.00 machine keeps the cutter stationary. On the $3999. Machine .. you move the cutter, while the work stays still. Really helpful with huge doors..

A Domino however is great for a guy like me who never seems to build the same thing twice. Way more flexible, but small joints.. For most furniture, the Domino is awesome.

I have played with the Felder Slot mortiser.. its about $4000.00 .. Its like a Swiss watch.. 4hp .. huge cutters.. silky smooth control.. I believe the Hammer is way less money, but the table moves instead of the cutter.. no problem for small stuff, could be a problem with 200lb doors..

For a Krenov Cabinet.. I would think a Domino is the only good choice..

[Brian Jarnell]

I now have the Domino and sold my slot morticer to buy it, I have no regrets.178952

[Frank Drew]

In the slot mortiser versus Domino, it is not a contest. The Domino will work with pieces that are narrow or wide, small or large. You can mortise into the edge, end or face. You can mortise in the middle of the face - try doing that with a slot mortiser. I've never used the Domino, and I'm sure it can do all you say. But I don't know why you say a horizontal slot mortiser can't perform those operations (as I've done them all on mine). IMO, there isn't that much a slot mortiser can't do. :D


You can do exposed tenons with the Domino. Build the case with hidden Dominos. After assembly, mortise where you want the "through" tenons (you need to know this before mortising the hidden Dominos so hidden and through don't interfere). Insert Domino and flush cut. This is obviously just an aesthetic trick...Yes, rather like the difference between jewelry and costume jewelry. I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that Chris meant through tenons for strength.

[Ben Abate]

I have a Felder FD 250 and it's a pretty nice machine, there are many others out there but unless you are doing commercial jobs on a time basis I believe the Felder and ones like it cover it pretty well. Now price, the Domino is a buy compare to the price of a horizontal boring machine. The Felder is in the $3000.00 to $4000.00 range. Domino is $800.00 My thinking is if you are mainly doing boxes and small funiture the Domino has it's place in that arena. If you do more on the items of passage and entry doors then the horizontal machine is what you would likely use. I believe there is a place for both in a shop. The horizontal machine is very precise once set up, but then again if the Domino is also if you learn how to operate it. As a few fellows have stated the domino is not that long of a tenon. The horizontal also has it's liimits but normally you can do 3 to 4 inch long tenons and sometimes longer depending on the tooling you acquire One thing to think about is the accessories for the horizontal machine, once you start placing larger pieces on the table (because most of the tables are very small) you'll start to want the extension tables and you'll want an extra hold down and so on and then the multi boring jigs, it gets expensive quick.....

Ben

[Alex Sauvage]

Thank you very much John, all this information is very helpful. I know it went a little bit of topic, but maybe other people will find it useful too. I am just a hobbyist and can't justify spending 800$ on a Domino, leave alone professional mortiser.
There is also question of achievement, making your own tools. I have a project coming up where I wanted to try floating mortises and it will be a perfect reason to built this jig. Thanks again.

[Chris Fournier]

I've used a router with a collar and dedicated mdf mortise jigs to make mortises in furniture and larger exterior door projects for years. Is it a high zoot joinery method? Is it super fast? Is chip collection thoughtlessly easy? No. Is it inexpensive using tooling that already exists in my shop? Is is supremely versatile? Is it effective? Yes. I like that the fact that I can create mortises that suit the task at hand. I like the fact that I make the tenons in house for a fit that I want.

I have been lucky enough to have a slot mortiser on an SCM jointer planer for several years now. This machine makes larger repetitive production runs a treat. It too is very verstaile.

If I only need to align surfaces, I can't beat the biscuit joiner for speed and cost effectiveness.

Do you need an $800 Domino if you have a 2hp or larger router already? I suppose that you may if you are trying to make a buck in your shop. Otherwise the domino is sort of a redundant $800 plus purchase. If it's your cup of tea, well that's another matter and you should likely own one!

[Chuck Tringo]

I'd buy a mortise pal and spend the rest of the money on beer....but of the other 2 choices based on the description of your work...a domino.

[JERRY BRINKMAN]

You may want to look at the Wood Rat or its sucessor the Router Boss. Having used the Wood Rat many times I can attest to the capability to make loose mortise and tennons, it performs very well. You can also make traditional tenons but will have to chisel mortise corners. Also makes very good dovetails. I make my own loose tennons as most posters do.

[Brian Kincaid]

Domino. If you ever want for more(?) add the mortiser and its footprint later. Domino made me SO much more productive in my limited-hours hobby shop. Of course I doubt Krenov would have approved of either machine!

-Brian

[Tim Sproul]

Krenov was practical. He used a slot mortiser to bore dowel mortises.

[Brian Jarnell]

Most of us on here are practical and therfore have a Domino in our kit bag, or one on order, then of course ther are the rest, remember it is not theire fault, simply a blip in the genes.