Tenon saw dilemma, Wenzloff or Bad Axe?

[Tim Null]

I am looking for a large tenon saw. I am considering the large Bad Axe, known as the Jack Saw, the Harvey Pearce large tenon from Wenzloff or the large tenon Weenzloff from Lee Valley. Any thoughts? Bad Axe will take the longest, and I am starting a bench build and would like to use it for the tenons. I can wait, but if the saws perform the same, then I would rather not. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Chris Vandiver]

You might also want to consider the 16" thin plate(.015) tenon saw from Lie Nielsen. Very nice saw and reasonably priced.

[David Keller NC]

Tim - There isn't a "best" one. What this comes down to is your preferences in styling - Bad Axe makes an early 20th century American-style "Disston" saw; Wenzlof supplies L-V with a late 19th, early 20th century British-style saw, while the Harvey Peace saw is a late 19th century, small-maker American style saw. The L-N design is based on mid-19th century British designs.

Any of them will perform superbly; it's largely a matter of taste and what your intended use is (capacity under the back, for example).

[Tim Null]

Thanks for the input guys.

So is there no real difference in how they will cut? I will be using it for the bench build, with large tenons. I already have the LV carcass saws, the Grammercy sash and a Wenzloff pane filed crosscut.

I want a saw for larger tenon work and the occasional small rip. Any real difference in performance between the styles?

Thanks again.

[David Weaver]

What does the "jack" mean. Is it filed with combination teeth? Or is it just rip teeth with a little bit of fleam on them?

I wouldn't worry too much about which one you get, as long as there is enough space under the back. Even if you get a rip saw, if you need it to crosscut in a pinch (though you shouldn't unless you have a deep cut), it'll have teeth fine enough to do that without making a mess of the work.

I have no experience with anything other than mike's kits, but as David says, really any saw that is made of good materials and is set up properly will be fine.

[Jason Chestnut]

Wow. What a dilemma to have. 10 years ago, you'd be trolling eBay, hoping to score a saw that could be rehabbed. We really do live in exciting times for hand tool woodworking.

[David Weaver]

Yeah, and thanks to you "new saw buyers", I can get old ones for cheap on ebay with a little bit of care.

the older saws do have some quirks - if they're really old, they often need significant work on the teeth, sometimes some care on the wood, and some finagling with the back to get them "straighter", but you can do that when you get a classic saw for $20-$40.

[Tim Null]

Thanks guys.

The Jack Saw is filed "hybrid" and according to reviews is like a jack plane, does may things well. I saw the review by Chris on the Lie Neilsen, looks really good and the price is very good as well. May go that route.

[Joel Goodman]

I believe the LN has a thinner plate in the 16" than Mike's. In the 14" I think the LN plate is thicker. Something to consider.

[David Weaver]

I'm not exactly sure what the plate is on mike's saw, but I ordered a kit and specified a .025" plate for a 16" saw.

I know this is often disputed (one way or the other) but my .025" plate 16" saw cuts much faster than a smaller lighter saw that I have with a .020" plate, both freshly sharpened rip with 5 degrees of rake. The issue, i'm pretty sure, is that the thicker saw has a taller and thicker plate and a heavier spine.

to me (and this is only an opinion) there is a difference between how fast the saw cuts and how much work you're actually doing. You will do less work with a thinner plate, but I don't know that you will really cut much or any faster. It would be easier to tell if you could if you use one of the LN thin saws and one of the LN thick saws next to each other on the same piece of wood and count strokes.

I do not worry about a thin plate on saws that large, you're not going to be cutting dovetails or tiny close-in work with them, anyway, and if you can saw to the waste side of a line with a saw with a .015" plate, you can do it with one with a .025" plate.

It's more of an issue of buy the thin saw if it pleases you to do so, but not on the assumption that a thicker plate saw is clunky and inaccurate.

I do like the thin plates on smaller saws, though.

[Marv Werner]

Hi Chris,

I'm always a bit Leary with a large thin plate tenon saw. Once deep in the cut, if the set is not extreme, the blade will drag in the kerf and heat up and warp. The more it warps the more it drags. When the blade cools, it will go back to straight, but that doesn't help when trying to saw an accurate.

[Marv Werner]

Tim,

If you talk to Mark Harrell, ask him about thin plates and warpage. He's had some experience, not all good.

[Chris Vandiver]

Hi Marv,

I haven't had that experience with the 16" thin plate(.015)from LN. It is the best ripping back saw I have used(and the set is minimal).

[Marv Werner]

Hi Chris,

How much blade from teeth to the back? This seems to make a difference in dispelling the heat.

[Chris Griggs]

On his website Mark Harrell states that he thinks thicker plates are better for very large tenon saws that will make deep cuts. He explains that a thin plate is more likely to bind in a deep cut since it will heat up more and is therefore likely to expand (although wax will help). It's worth noting however, that he says this in reference to his huge 18" saw.

I haven't hear a bad thing about the LN 16", and may very well get one some day since it is so reasonably priced. However, if money was no object I'd get a Bad Axe just because they look so cool (yes, I want some saw bling). Also, since you already have some crosscut saws I would go with a dedicated rip over the hybrid filing. But that's just me. In the end its what you think will serve your purposes best.

[Joel Goodman]

Hi Marv,

I haven't had that experience with the 16" thin plate(.015)from LN. It is the best ripping back saw I have used(and the set is minimal).

I believe the 16" is .020 -- I think they offer a thin plate dovetail at .015.

[Tim Null]

Hi Chris,

Good point on the filing. I have been in contact with Mark, 4-6 weeks wait. I am also contacting Mike, he may have something already made up. The Lie Neilsen is tempting as well. I am a bit worried about the comments on the thin plate. Chris liked his test saw. All actual reviews have been positive. But the saw gurus here seem to think it would be a concern. I trust their opinions, which is making me think twice. Not sure which way I will go. I am about to start a modified Roubo bench build and don't really want to wait, but if waiting a few weeks gets me the saw that is best for me then that is what I will so.

I hate waiting.....LOL

[Marv Werner]

Tim,

Here's a suggestion..... if you don't want to wait, consider this.... back in the day many woodworkers actually used a panel saw for cutting deep tenon cuts. The blades were taper ground and sturdy enough to make a straight cut and to any depth you want, no back to limit depth. The only thing is, you will need a panel saw with rip teeth. I suggest a 10PPI with teeth with an 8 degree rake angle. Perhaps one of the present day saw makers will file one of their crosscut saws rip for you. Mark Harrell has refurbished saws that he sells on his website. I bet if you asked him, he would modify a regular handsaw for you. It could even be a 26" saw. It will cut tenon cheeks as well. If you decide to do this, have him file the rip teeth as regular rip teeth, not hybrids. What he has for sale varies from day to day. You can go on his site and see what he has at this time. Or you could send him one you might have. If all he has to do is refile an existing saw, maybe he'd do it sooner for you. He's a good guy, if you say please, he just might do it right away.

[Chris Vandiver]

Marv,

There is 4 1/4" of blade below the back.

[Andrew Gibson]

I have a large tenon saw kit from Mike. it is 16" long and has 4" below the back, and is 10ppi rip. I used it to cut the half blinds on my bench. The saw is quite nice, but untill you get used to it is a big saw. I also have a pair of 22" panel saws from Mike.

I think you would be hard pressed to go wrong with any of your choices.

[Tim Null]

Andrew,

I did not see a large tenon kit on his site. I have a panel saw crosscut that I did as a kit. Turned out great. I enjoyed making the handle. Did he have the tenon as a kit before?

I e-mailed him about it, hopefully he will respond with good news.

[Chris Vandiver]

Hi Joel,

You are absolutely correct. I was mistaken, the plate is .020. Still an excellent saw at that thickness.

[george wilson]

The only reason the LN saw is less expensive,is most likely that they have the means to produce them very efficiently,being already a tool factory. I think they are fine.

[Tim Sproul]

But the saw gurus here seem to think it would be a concern. I trust their opinions, which is making me think twice.

I'm no guru but they should be reminding you that the sharpening of the saw has a lot more to do with performance than the brand.

[Andrew Gibson]

Tim, I don't remember if the large tenon saw was on his site, I found his sight to be confusing. we e-mailed back and forth several times, that is how we got everything figured out... I ordered 4 kits from him.

Maybe look at a half back saw... I would like to have one of those at some point.

[John Coloccia]

My only dilemma would be sneaking three new saws into the house :) There are some pretty nice saws out there these days, aren't there?

[Chuck Tringo]

You may also consider a custom miter box saw from Lie Nielsen if you are not keen on a .02 thick blade....prices start at $195 and I would imagine that if their are only minor differences from their current 16 inch tenon saw, it wouldn't be any higher....maybe give them a call to make sure they file it rip as miter box saws are cross cutters.

[george wilson]

If I had to choose,I'd get a LN or a Wenzloff. They are just prettier than the Disston repros by Bad Axe. Absolutely nothing wrong with Bad Axe saws,I just like the other styles better. And,I have old Disston saws in prime condition that didn't cost me el buckos muy grosso.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Since Andrew mentioned "half back" saw, what's the general opinion here about usefulness of that type of saw? I have two, purchased primarily because I liked the looks more than having a need.

In using them (one 11 point cross cut, one 9 point rip), I understand why you don't come across many of the used market: the old guys simply didn't buy very many! But I am only a hobbyist, with sometimes too much expendable cash in my hands, hence I own a couple (incidentally even if I don't use them very much, the looks more than make up for the saw till space they take up - I will never part with them).

[Brian Kent]

Could someone explain to me what the difference is between a carcass saw and a tenon saw. I know tenon is larger. What is the difference in usage?

[David Weaver]

I would be surprised if anyone ever has a strong opinion about them. A short panel saw seems to do everything they do quite well, but they are nifty looking. I think if anyone has a strong opinion against them, it's only because they're opposed to people spending a lot of money on new tools.

I'd love to have a couple of them for giggles but have absolutely no idea what I'd do with them that I can't do already. What do you think of them in use. They kind of remind me of the nissan stanza, except they look really nice.

[Matt Radtke]

Could someone explain to me what the difference is between a carcass saw and a tenon saw. I know tenon is larger. What is the difference in usage?

Generally, a tenon saw is longer, taller, and more coarse. The theory is that A) you'll need to cut tenons deeper and B) the extra plate helps keep the saw vertical by raising the center of gravity, making it easier to see and feel if you're off a bit.

iirc, the idea behind the different classes of saws is something like

a) dovetail saw for cutting dovetails in drawers (most fine and little)
b) carcass saw for cutting dovetails in a carcass (more coarse, bigger)
c) sash saw for, I dunno. Cutting sash bars? (more coarse still, even bigger )
d) tenon saw for cutting tenons (coarsest, biggest)

[Andrew Gibson]

I thought the definition of the different saws came from saw makers trying to sell you as many saws as possible...

Thats OK with me, I like saws, but I don't have enough money to throw at them... one day, one day.

I mentioned the half back saws because I like the way they look, and I am sure one would look very nice hanging in the lid of my tool chest...

[Tim Null]

Have been e-mailing Mike. He is going to do a kit for a large tenon saw for me. He says he does not have enough parts already made, so they are not on the website and are by request only. I already have a panel saw of his and I enjoyed doing the handle. This save a bit of money, which I am already looking to spend on wooden vise screws and hardware for the leg vise. Mike is a great guy to work with, looking forward to getting my hands on the saw kit!

[Tony Zaffuto]

What do I think of my half-backs? They're really nice to look at, but I only reach for one when I make a conscious effort to use it! They seem to be the multi-tool of joinery saws, with specific saws probably better for the job. But I like how they look.