Laser Engraving Guns - Jigs??

[Chris DeGerolamo]

So, we have been engraving a lot of guns and gun components and I have had to create many a jig in order to get them to seat on the laser bed to ensure no movement. I looked at gun vises and did not see any that would meet our needs. I (re)use what we have but it takes more time to set these things up (time=$)...

My question to you all is have any of you found a slightly more universal way to keep guns, etc. secure in the machine? It is not feasible for us to make a jig for every customer coming through our door with a different make of gun.

Thanks in advance.

[Mike Null]

Do not underestimate PlayDoh or modelers clay.

[Dan Hintz]

Do not underestimate PlayDoh or modelers clay.
178841..........

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I have silly putty and use it frequently...I was hoping for something with less "wiggle room"

[Amy Shelton]

I use Fun-Tak, blue sticky stuff for hanging posters on walls. I believe it's found in the school supply section.

[Dan Hintz]

Get rid of the silly putty... it's too soft for heavy objects and anything initially level may shift as it sits. Modeler's clay (and even Play-Doh) will be more stiff.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

178844
I think that what I am looking for would operate similarly to this but also allow me to set the firearm on its side.

[Dan Hintz]

Wow, seems like overkill to me. Have you tried packing foam, say, about 1.5-2" thick (depends upon the size of weapon)? Glue the foam down to a piece of plywood for positioning repeatability. Once you have the cutout (scan the weapon for an outline for cutting), I bet positioning accuracy would be the same or better as any manual mount in a vice.

[Mike Null]

Chris

What kind of guns are giving you a problem? I've done a number of gun stocks without using anything but shims.

I agree with Dan about the foam and I would use hot glue to make the jig. Fabric stores have a wide variety of foam.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Overkill yes, and overpriced (~300). Foam is not a bad idea...all my other jigs are plywood. I like the scan idea too.

As you [all] know, engraving jobs like these take little time in the machine; all of the time I spend on these projects is math and planning. The less time I spend setting up, the more money I make (duh).

I'll keep my eyes and ears open. Thanks Dan.

[Robert Walters]

Chris,

There is polymer clay that's sold in every craft store in the USA.
One brand name is "Sculpty" iirc.

Once molded, you bake it and it turns solid.
Comes in dozens of colors.

One BIG note... It is PVC based - BAD BAD THING for lasers, humans, furry creatures, and voids warranties.

But as long as you aren't lasering the clay itself, it may be usable for your needs.



If you want a more universal fixture....

Why not get a plate that has threaded holes in it that you can fasten other standoffs of varying height to.
Then use bungy cord (like) things and or velcro to actually secure the firearm to the fixture.

You could line the inside of the clamp fixtures with silicon or rubber sheet to give grip and prevent slippage,
and won't mare/scratch the firearm either.

If you include risers, then you can rotate the clamp on one axis as needed to get to the top, bottom and sides - something like a rotisserie.

[Dan Hintz]

Sculpy is a poor material to use for anything that requires precision... it shrinks a good 10-15% after baking.

[Robert Walters]

Sculpy is a poor material to use for anything that requires precision... it shrinks a good 10-15% after baking.

That may be a good thing, could use the shrinkage as a place to put protective/slip-resistant padding into.
Felt, rubber sheet, silicon, etc.

I actually molded some polymer clay to glass beads and baked both together.
There was no noticeable shrinkage that I could see.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I wouldn't say that any are giving me trouble. I am just looking for a more universal solution as compared to making a bunch of jigs. I have several already for Picatinny rails, glock slides, etc. but I know that they are far from universal. So, say a customer brings a pistol to be engraved "here" and "here". I want to be able to have the gun set up inside the machine within minutes. It seems that I always end up losing most of my money setting the darn thing up (not really losing money on these jobs just the best way I could think to word it).

Using just shims, to me, would leave to much room for error, say if something were to bump the firearm. Maybe I'm too neurotic.

The threaded rod idea is good and something I had not considered, thanks Robert.

[Jay Maiers]

Perhaps a carving vise with a variety of jaw inserts?
http://www.chippingaway.com/woodcarving/VisesForWoodcarvers/PanaViseForWoodcarvers.htm
(Forgive me if it's a silly idea. I'm a CNC, power tool, and gun guy; I don't have a laser :) )

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Jay that's not too shabby. Thanks!

[John A Myers]

Cut a cardboard box down that will allow you to put the gun part in the box in the orientation you are going to laser, cover the bottom with wax paper, place the part inside the wax paper and then spray insulation spray foam between the wax paper and the box sides. Let the foam set up. The foam expands a lot so you only need a little to hold the piece.

[Dee Gallo]

Okay Chris, here's my crazy suggestion: take a plastic bag and fill it partway with water. Place it on a flat tray, put the gun on it and freeze it. Voila! A reusable custom fit jig. Yeah, I know... kinda out there.

But, the same idea with sand would work, if you had a shallow box to fit into the laser which you could register as normal. Just run a test vector line for alignment with the red dot first.

:D dee

[Dan Ashlin]

Why not take a peice of mdf and have your laser cut holes on a grid for dowels, then you can put the gun in and place dowel rods around it to secure it on the X Y and all you have to worry about is placing something like modelers clay down to level it on the Z. once you set up one, you should be able to run multiples with no problem. plus, you've made yourself a nice cutting pin table.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

And I thought I had some clever ideas! I so impressed with the variety of solutions. Thanks!

[Dan Hintz]

Okay Chris, here's my crazy suggestion: take a plastic bag and fill it partway with water. Place it on a flat tray, put the gun on it and freeze it. Voila! A reusable custom fit jig.
All I can think of is losing power to the freezer one day and screaming "I just lost thousands of dollars worth of jigs!" ;)

[Richard Rumancik]

There is a difference in approach if the fixtures are supposed to be reusable or not. There is no point spending a lot of time and money if it is for one use. But if you get repeat jobs then for that you might want a better fixture.

Just a small point. These are fixtures, not jigs. Fixtures hold parts, jigs guide tools (as in "drill jig" which guides a drill bit).

I was thinking of something like sand, too - but maybe put it into a bag so you don't get it into the gun. Another option to sand might be a bag of steel shot. Once you push it in, it will probably stay. The weight is to your advantage.

Another option - make a shallow box and fill with large steel ball bearings. You might even place several strong magnets in the bottom of the box, so the bearings stick together a bit. Might be some other tricks with magnets if you are okay with the magnets.

The insulation idea might work fine. Why not just shoot it into a heavy plastic bag, just like formed-in-place packaging? Lay the gun down on the filled bag (again, a shallow box would help) and let the foam set up. A fast setting foam would be best, or else restrain the gun. (The foams I have used tend to grow for an hour or more.)

I have used automotive body fill for some fixtures. It does not have to be a continuous "bed". You can make a simple plate or box, apply body fill in a few places, add a protective sheet of heavy polyethylene, place item in proper orientation, and let it set up. It's better if the imprint is not too exact to allow for variation; just pick up on a few major features. (Note: body fill gives off heat when curing so be careful using this on plastic items.)

For smaller items, rather than body fill, you can use hot-melt glue to define a few fixturing mounting points. (You can also use poly sheet or aluminum foil, or not.) Again, be selective as to where you pick up on the part so it is restrained but not excessively.

Pick up some Lego blocks and see what they will do for you. In combination with hot melt or other ideas you can make holding fixtures pretty fast.

[Robert Walters]

I'm not sure if what I was trying to describe came across clear enough.
One issue I was trying to address is NOT scratching/marring the firearm.

When I said velcro, I meant something like this (with added padding for grip):
www DOT dealextreme DOT com/details.dx/sku.12000

with different sizes to accommodate the barrel, stock, etc.

Or even a plastic/wood version of a clamp set on a base plate that has holes on a 1" (or whatever) grid:
www DOT harborfreight DOT com/58-piece-combination-step-block-and-clamp-set-3-8-eighth-inch-16-nc-studs-1-2-half-inch-clamps-5952.html

T-track would work well too, there are some universal kits here too that might give you some ideas:
www DOT rockler DOT com/c/jig-parts-t-tracks.cfm

Then all you have to do is take a photo once you figure out the layout for each firearm and repeat the same layout.

Mount the base plate on a 'U' base frame, then you can rotate it to get to the top and sides of the piece.

[Bill Cunningham]

For 1911 slides, and other small parts I use a drill press vise with rubber on the jaws. They are low profile, fast to set up, and hold things pretty secure. In Canada, we can only do some parts on a 'restricted' weapon. ( restricted weapon here, is any handgun not deemed 'prohibited', or anything the previous government deemed scary looking!) So the only parts we can do are anything that is not the 'frame'. Transporting frames anywhere, including to a gunsmith requires a separate permit than the one that allows to to transport it to a range, along with a whole bunch of other rules written by paranoids..

[James McMulllian]

So, we have been engraving a lot of guns and gun components ...

Don't forget that you are required to have a Federal Firearms License in the US to engrave customer guns (see question 1 http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html#license-activities) . You probably already know this but it worth stating for others so they don't get in trouble with the ATF.

[Robert Walters]

Don't forget that you are required to have a Federal Firearms License in the US to engrave customer guns (see question 1 http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html#license-activities) .

The FFL application reads: "Do you plan on making a profit? If NO, then do not submit this application."

So, does that mean I can sell him an engraved luggage tag for $1300, and engrave his gun for free? LOL

[Martin Boekers]

First a few neat things (sorry couldn't help myself!)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9__JVljIdL8&feature=related

www.metacafe.com/watch/279002/snow_powder_smart_snow_christmas_magic_snow/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB9Sv-l7sRY

Ok !!!

What I carry in my camera bag all the time is a couple Ziplock bags one filled with sand and another peas (peas don't
weigh as much). this takes the place of a tripod when I'm in a hurry. I can set it most anywhere then set the camera on top
of it, this forms a nice stable "hold" for the camera. This may work for you,
but I would use a sewn fabric as it would allow more "adjustability"

Also You might try building a small box and fill it with sand or something similar, place a piece of Saran Wrap over the top
to keep the mess limited. Then you can work the gun into a level, stable position. For alignment take a thin sheet of acrylic
and etch a numbered grid on it. You can set this on top and in alignment to the sandbox then move the box into position on your table. This will be a fairly accurate guide.

I keep waiting for someone in this industry to come up with reasonable holders.

I do a ton of crystal globe and engrave the bases, each base (if I'm lucky) is just
slightly different (I assume they are hand polished as the angles vary) I've work out
a shimming process, but it would be nice to have a good fixture.


Marty

[Ross Lowry]

James,

What if the customer just sends you the grips or gun stock and keeps the actual gun with them?

[James McMulllian]

James,

What if the customer just sends you the grips or gun stock and keeps the actual gun with them?

Then you would be in the clear. You can not work on the complete gun. You can work on pieces but not the serial numbered part. Basically anything the ATF considers a gun is a no-go without an FFL. Example: If the customer took apart their ar15 themselves they could give you any piece to engrave except the lower receiver.

[Ross Lowry]

Thanks for the clarification James.

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Don't forget that you are required to have a Federal Firearms License in the US to engrave customer guns (see question 1 http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html#license-activities) . You probably already know this but it worth stating for others so they don't get in trouble with the ATF.

To make a long story short, we have had the ATF in our office regarding a matter with one of our clients and the only issue they were concerned with is/was whether or not any AR15 lower receiver (serialized part) had been in our possession without the owner being present. Never once were we asked any questions regarding FFL, surely they knew we did not have one.

[John Mark Johnson]

Just saw this thread. Are you guys using Cermark. I am having am lot of trouble getting consistant results. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks

[Chris DeGerolamo]

Just saw this thread. Are you guys using Cermark. I am having am lot of trouble getting consistant results. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks

I have never too much cared for Cermark. I have told clients looking to etch on stainless steel gun components that there would be an additional cost to cover the Cermark material...I hate to turn down business but I am not sure that I would do it anyway. I couldn't imagine messing up a firearm and having to pay to replace it. I already get butterflies engraving on other things.

To be honest though regarding the application of the Cermark, I had good luck cutting it with a lot of DNA to make it fairly thin then applying several light coats with a foam brush, waiting for coats to dry in between applications of course. I utilized this technique on a bunch of old bricks I engraved a month or so ago and the resulting coat of Cermark was consistant among the group...far better than the results we were getting with the spray gun with zero overspray and less loss of product. And I was able to apply it indoors without a mask...

[kyle bonnell]

I use a small drill press vise. 2.5" or a 4" work well for these types of jobs. I lasered my walther last night using a vise and it turned out very nice.

[bill liscombe]

Hi Chris,
try this link http://zoneballistic.com/colinsballistics/riflevise.html I have built one of these for my rifles. Actually cut the stands and clamp mechanisms with my engraver. It will take anything from a 1022 to a 7.62 nagant

[John Coloccia]

I've been reading through this thread. I do NOTHING with laser engraving, so take this with a grain of salt....

...but from what I understand of laser engraving requirements, I would take a sheet of metal as a base, and glue various shims and blocks of wood to magnets. When a gun came in, I would shim it and the use the blocks to hold it in place. I'm 99% certain that with a handful of shims and blocks I could securely clamp any firearm in whatever configuration I wanted. In fact, I'm pretty sure that with a handful of shims and blocks, I could probably clamp anything I wanted in any configuration I wanted.

In fact, now that I think of it, I could probably make a small fortune selling such a clamping system to engravers all around the world. When someone steals this idea and makes a fortune, I do ask that you call it "Coloccia Clamping" at least. LOL.

[Mike Null]

John

Sorry but I stole your idea before you had it. I will share any royalties, of course.;)

[John Coloccia]

John

Sorry but I stole your idea before you had it. I will share any royalties, of course.;)

Does anyone actually make such a system or do you have to home grow it? Many many years ago, I used to use something very similar for building model aircraft. It made it very easy to jig up everything dead straight. For whatever reason, it doesn't appear that it's still available.

[Mike Null]

John

In my case in true "Yankee" fashion I use materials on hand such as parts of name tag magnets glued or taped to blocks, engravers plastic as spacers, acrylic laser cut to shape if needed, leather scraps, bubble wrap etc. If I need something for multiple operations I will use mdf or wood in combination with whatever to do the job.

[Scott Shepherd]

I'll one up your fixture John. I took modeling clay, stuffed it into a sandwich bag, then I can take any object, press it down into the clay it and sits just how I need it. We don't need no stinkin' magnets :p

[Chris DeGerolamo]

I like the bag and clay idea for smaller objects....thanks for the vice/clamps idea bill.

[Jerrimy Snook]

Tormach posted this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bFmv5rLYWk&feature=player_embedded) on their blog back in January of last year. It shows their super-soft jaw kit for a milling machine vise. The material they used is a plastic that is solid at room temperature and can be molded when warmed in water or a heat gun. They had some fun with it and clamped an egg in the mill to cut a hole in the shell and scramble the egg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feXzzjIcJJI&feature=player_embedded).

[Gary Hair]

Tormach posted this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bFmv5rLYWk&feature=player_embedded) on their blog back in January of last year. It shows their super-soft jaw kit for a milling machine vise. The material they used is a plastic that is solid at room temperature and can be molded when warmed in water or a heat gun. They had some fun with it and clamped an egg in the mill to cut a hole in the shell and scramble the egg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feXzzjIcJJI&feature=player_embedded).

That is some awesome stuff! I just ordered a 34oz jar of it on amazon, can't wait to try it out!

[Brent Dekaspark]

So, we have been engraving a lot of guns and gun components and I have had to create many a jig in order to get them to seat on the laser bed to ensure no movement. I looked at gun vises and did not see any that would meet our needs. I (re)use what we have but it takes more time to set these things up (time=$)...

My question to you all is have any of you found a slightly more universal way to keep guns, etc. secure in the machine? It is not feasible for us to make a jig for every customer coming through our door with a different make of gun.

Thanks in advance.

I have only been doing laser marking for a couple years and am pretty much self taught.

For the majority of the guns that we mark (mostly handguns), we use magnetic chucks. We lay a soft protective cloth over top of the chuck, set the slide on the cloth, and flip the lever. Most handgun slides are ferrous so the chuck hold them extremely tight. Some Stainless doesn't work on it, but most do. Even with shims, the magnets in the chuck are so strong it will still keep it in place. The chucks are typically all steel construction and very heavy - no need to worry about it moving unless you want it to.

They make magnetic chucks that are V-Shaped, flat, large, and small. Here is my personal favorite: ebaydotcom/itm/5-X-2-PRECISION-MAGNETIC-V-BLOCKS-VBLOCK-CHUCK-0005-/350430544071?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519749c0c7

[Kevin L. Waldron]

Have you thought about using some kind of jig that could hold a cylinder to go down each different barrel. It would appear to me that the only thing that would be parallel with the laser head for all guns would be the barrel. With the barrel parallel you should be able to change angles if your jig were adjustable and simply level the area that needed to be lasered ....filling or shoring up as required. ( Various size wooden dowels could work as the rods are even some kind of teflon/poly. )


Just a thought.

Blessings,

Kevin