Incra LS-TS on Sawstop - your thoughts?

[Victor Robinson]

The only thing that drives me nutty on an otherwise perfect saw is the fence. My Sawstop PCS' fence irritates me to no end. Sawstop users are probably familiar with the slight shift (~1/16", maybe a little less) towards the blade when the fence is locked down. This makes setting blade-to-fence distance accurately a little cumbersome, even when using brass setup bars.

Now I may or may not need that level of precision in my woodworking (which is mostly smaller items like boxes), but the idea certainly appeals to me. I am also enticed by the idea of being able to return to a given cut width at a later time. I really enjoy having this capability in my router table, where I have the LS-17 positioner/wonderfence.

I've started to consider the 32" TS-LS positioner. I don't have room for the larger 52" system. I realize that I would be losing ~4-6" of rip capacity, but I don't cut large sheet goods on the TS so I don't think this would bother me. I also have a router insert in the extension table of the saw - adding the Incra fence will probably require a repositioning/reconstruction of the extension table.

Basically, it's a ~$375 investment with a fair amount of labor, and I'm guessing if I like the Incra, I can sell my 36" Sawstop fence and rails for some amount (not sure what - any ideas?).

Those of you that have done this - have you found it worth it? I'm wary of a few "high-profile" reviews that report dissatisfaction with the solidity of the Incra fence. Any tips or advice, things to watch out for?

[Van Huskey]

First, if you watch Marc's review and read his comments (I assume that is what you are referring to) his issues with robustness was more perception than any actual problems. He also did not have your problem with his PM fence which was serving him well and continues to.

Second, I love the Incra fence and would not want a TS without one.

[ken carroll]

I just sold my Griz 1023 with Incra TSII fence. I have a couple PM-66s with Biesemeyers at the moment (at least one will go at some point) and I really miss the Incra.
Frankly the Bies type fences are a huge let down after an Incra.
The idea of measuring to 1-7/16" then doing a half dozen other measurements and then coming back to EXACTLY 1-7/16" is really great.
I have cut full sheets of plywood with mine so as VH says any perception of lack of robustness is not backed up by fact. IMO of course.

[Van Huskey]

One other thing I really like about the Incra fence is the ability change an interference fit from moderately tight, to very tight, to 5lb dead blow tight all with the turn of the knob AND be able to repeat the exact dimension a month or a year from now. Try that with any of the other TS fences.

[Michael Peet]

Hi Victor,

I put a 32" Incra fence on my PCS. I do not cut sheet goods on the table saw either (until they are down to manageable sizes, anyway). The repeatability is nice, all the "overhead" is not so nice. I have had to remove it completely a couple times for long cross cuts, but fortunately it comes off pretty easily by loosening 4 knobs.

I will also note this - the two angle bars that the stock rails mount on will need to be removed to install the Incra system, however these bars are also used to help level the wings and extension table. I wasn't sure if the Incra fence rails would be strong enough to do the same, so I had a local machinist fabricate a couple adapters out of steel bar stock. These adapters run the length of the table in front and back, have holes to match those on the SS so you can bolt them on and level the table, and also have some tapped holes for mounting the Incra rails. This may have been unnecessary, but then again I tend to over-engineer and they certainly didn't hurt.

Edit to add pictures -

Here are the two adapters (they are identical) along with a full-scale printout I made of the sketchup model before I committed to the fabrication:
178895

One of the adapters alongside one of the original angle bars:
178897

Adapters installed:
178898

Incra rails installed. Compared to the stock angle bars, you can see why the Incra rails alone are not ideal to aid with table leveling because they only attach at 2 or 3 points:
178894

Sketchup model. No warranties etc etc. Double-check your saw's measurements if you decide to use this:
178896

Mike

[mreza Salav]

I am not sure why you have that movement on your fence when you lock it. On my sawstop fence I get zero (at least not enough to be able to measure meaningfully) movement
when locking down. Have you carefully tuned the fence? I found you need next to no play at all in the fence and yet will be able to slide it.
basically those white plastic adjustable pieces on the fence should solve your problem. Aside from a little shallow spot (like 0.003") in the laminated ply on the surface of
the fence I had no complains about the fence. That dip was also solved by shimming behind it.

[Ruhi Arslan]

I cannot say anything but only the good for Incra systems. It makes even me look like I know what the heck I am doing on the TS. I would suggest you to get the longest raisl you can fit in your shop even if it may require moving your TS on a rolling base. Rails are "strong" enough to hold the extension table and/or router table but with legs for stability. I called Incra recently to order a longer set of rails to replace my 72" rails. They talked me out of it by suggesting alternative setup helping me to realize I wouldn't need to get another set. Now, that IS customer support!

[Van Huskey]

I had forgotten to point out the one point to note about the Incra + Sawstop equation. The Incra is a metal fence. I think every TS I have owned over the years has an "arc of shame" on the fence where I have kissed it with the blade when I should have had a sacrificial fence on. This just scarred my fence (maybe a little blade scarring on the couple of metal fences I have had) but on a Sawstop the result is going to be a little different and more expensive.

[David Giles]

Very happy LS-TS 32" user here. Some SS have deep tables and may need longer Incra fence and support piece. My Incra fence was bowed, but it sanded out on the jointer table. The gold looks cool with the black. It is plenty substantial. I check my accuracy yearly and rarely have to adjust the fence. You give up right side working space. You gain repeatable accuracy. I moved the router wing to the left side of the saw. Outfeed tables are either very complicated or very simple. Mine is a 6" wide board that spans the fence to bench space.

[Van Huskey]

Some SS have deep tables and may need longer Incra fence and support piece.

The PCS he has is a small table so I think the standard fence will work. The ICS is a larger table and like my PM2000 and the new Uni need the longer fence.

[Richard Shaefer]

The PCS he has is a small table so I think the standard fence will work. The ICS is a larger table and like my PM2000 and the new Uni need the longer fence.

I have a SS contractor with the big fence. I know what you mean about the little shift when you lock it. It's easy to fix, just fine tune the fence setting with the lock handle snugged down. It'll move, and it'll lock in the same position.

[Victor Robinson]

Thank you for all the info. I can't imagine my router table without the Incra fence so I can see how one would be hard pressed to live without the repeatability on the TS fence once it's there!

It's good to know I can tweak the fence to get rid of the slight shift. I had read this enough times on the boards that I thought it was just something inherent to the SS fence.

Also good to hear that the regular TS-LS fence works on the PCS...my next question was going to be whether I needed the XL version (Michael this is true right?).

Any other thoughts are welcome!

[Chip Lindley]

The only thing that drives me nutty on an otherwise perfect saw is the fence. My Sawstop PCS' fence irritates me to no end. Sawstop users are probably familiar with the slight shift (~1/16", maybe a little less) towards the blade when the fence is locked down. This makes setting blade-to-fence distance accurately a little cumbersome, even when using brass setup bars.

Now I may or may not need that level of precision in my woodworking (which is mostly smaller items like boxes), but the idea certainly appeals to me.

Victor, I had "that level of precision" wayy back in the '70s with an extremely crappy Craftsman TS fence! I suffered with it far too long! Your SawStop is an expensive saw. The stock fence on it should be no slouch either! There should be NO shift when you lock your SS fence down. It is a Biesemeyer clone same as zillions of others. Thre are also zillions of satisfied Biese- and Clone-users out there.

IMO, your pair-a-dimes shift is symptomatic of something wrong with the fence OR it'a alignment. If you have squared the fence to the blade (per the SS manual) with the two adjustment screws, then perhaps the cam was drilled cock-eyed, Or another part is not flat or square. So as not to embarass yourself, go through the adjustment procedure one more time. If accuracy does not improve when the fence locks down, call SawStop! I am betting they make it right.

Incra stuff is touted for it's accuracy, and come at a hefty price. Some Incra items might be very useful. But, I find the Incra TS fence to be "contrived" with all that hardware covering the whole saw table. That is a lot of real estate going to waste that could be used for assembly or a very decent router table. Simpler is better! Although my PM AccuFence (Biese Clone) has a rule graduated only in 1/32" incriments, I can interpolate easily to 1/64" (or less) if necessary to split hairs. That is all the accuracy I require of a decent tablesaw, and I am kinda picky!

[Matt Gillam]

I just installed the 52" Version on my TS, and I CAN see where the perception of lack of robustness COULD come in to play, but once you lock everything down(as the manual tells you to) you can clearly see it's not GOING ANYWHERE!

Not to thread-jack, but does anyone know how to post in the classifieds? I'm looking for an item, and don't have "privelage" to post there...I'd tell you what it is, but I don't want to get booted before I start. Thanks!

Matt

[Victor Robinson]

Victor, I had "that level of precision" wayy back in the '70s with an extremely crappy Craftsman TS fence! I suffered with it far too long! Your SawStop is an expensive saw. The stock fence on it should be no slouch either! There should be NO shift when you lock your SS fence down. It is a Biesemeyer clone same as zillions of others. Thre are also zillions of satisfied Biese- and Clone-users out there.

IMO, your pair-a-dimes shift is symptomatic of something wrong with the fence OR it'a alignment. If you have squared the fence to the blade (per the SS manual) with the two adjustment screws, then perhaps the cam was drilled cock-eyed, Or another part is not flat or square. So as not to embarass yourself, go through the adjustment procedure one more time. If accuracy does not improve when the fence locks down, call SawStop! I am betting they make it right.

Incra stuff is touted for it's accuracy, and come at a hefty price. Some Incra items might be very useful. But, I find the Incra TS fence to be "contrived" with all that hardware covering the whole saw table. That is a lot of real estate going to waste that could be used for assembly or a very decent router table. Simpler is better! Although my PM AccuFence (Biese Clone) has a rule graduated only in 1/32" incriments, I can interpolate easily to 1/64" (or less) if necessary to split hairs. That is all the accuracy I require of a decent tablesaw, and I am kinda picky!

Hehe, thanks Chip. I embarrass myself on a regular basis though, so it wouldn't be anything new. :) That being said, if I can adjust the SS fence to perfection, that's great. It probably still won't uninterest me in the Incra though - it's the repeatability I'm after.

[Todd Bin]

Hello, I have a SS with an Incra fence. I love it. If you look at this really old thread that I posted you can see pics of the fence on the SS and the fact that you can mount one of the outfeed roller systems with the incra fence.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?77616-Outfeed-rollers-with-Incra-fence-on-Sawstop&highlight=

Some factors about incra vs. Bies type

1. Incra is metal and will trip the break if the blade hits it while moving. I have never done this (knock on wood) but you must be cautious.
2. The incra does take up more room to the right of the saw because of the "arm".
3. Does not really support some of the saddle type jigs that people use with the bies fence
4. It is extremely accurate and repeatable
5. It is solid. No issues with it moving while making a cut etc.
6. It doesn't really take up real estate for a glue up just push the fence back
7. But given pt. 6 you can't keep a lot of crap sitting on the saw table to the right of the fence.

~Todd

[Don Bullock]

Victor, I had "that level of precision" wayy back in the '70s with an extremely crappy Craftsman TS fence! I suffered with it far too long! Your SawStop is an expensive saw. The stock fence on it should be no slouch either! There should be NO shift when you lock your SS fence down. It is a Biesemeyer clone same as zillions of others. Thre are also zillions of satisfied Biese- and Clone-users out there.

IMO, your pair-a-dimes shift is symptomatic of something wrong with the fence OR it'a alignment. If you have squared the fence to the blade (per the SS manual) with the two adjustment screws, then perhaps the cam was drilled cock-eyed, Or another part is not flat or square. So as not to embarass yourself, go through the adjustment procedure one more time. If accuracy does not improve when the fence locks down, call SawStop! I am betting they make it right.

Incra stuff is touted for it's accuracy, and come at a hefty price. Some Incra items might be very useful. But, I find the Incra TS fence to be "contrived" with all that hardware covering the whole saw table. That is a lot of real estate going to waste that could be used for assembly or a very decent router table. Simpler is better! Although my PM AccuFence (Biese Clone) has a rule graduated only in 1/32" incriments, I can interpolate easily to 1/64" (or less) if necessary to split hairs. That is all the accuracy I require of a decent tablesaw, and I am kinda picky!

Chip's flashback to the '70s Craftsman was too much for me. Wow, how I struggled with that fence. Even now thinking about it makes me ill. It's the main reason I finally upgraded to a SawStop ICS with an Incra fence. What a difference!!!

As to the OP, it sounds like you have been given information on adjusting your SS fence to get rid of the slop. While I agree with Chip that the Incra fence seems somewhat contrived with all that hardware covering the right side of the saw top, I sure love the way it works. Eventually I plan to add a router to the right side of my SS and the Incra fence will be useful for it as well.

[Victor Robinson]

Hmm, one of the things that makes me hesitate is the placement of the router table. Right now, with my secondary router table in the saw's right extension, I can stand at the end of the saw and feel like I have full control at the router table. If the router table with the Incra is to go on the right side of the saw, it becomes a front-to-back feeding table but you still have to stand at the front of the saw, which to me feels like I would have less control.

I suppose one option would be to put the router table in the saw's left extension, but would require repositioning of the positioner support to use as router fence (how cumbersome would that be?). Seems like moving it back to use as saw's fence would throw off the rules/calibration. Again, not sure how much a pain this is in practice.

By the way, anyone have an idea how much the Sawstop rails and fence can be sold for?

[Van Huskey]

Hmm, one of the things that makes me hesitate is the placement of the router table. Right now, with my secondary router table in the saw's right extension, I can stand at the end of the saw and feel like I have full control at the router table. If the router table with the Incra is to go on the right side of the saw, it becomes a front-to-back feeding table but you still have to stand at the front of the saw, which to me feels like I would have less control.

I suppose one option would be to put the router table in the saw's left extension, but would require repositioning of the positioner support to use as router fence (how cumbersome would that be?). Seems like moving it back to use as saw's fence would throw off the rules/calibration. Again, not sure how much a pain this is in practice.

By the way, anyone have an idea how much the Sawstop rails and fence can be sold for?


On the PCS the router must be on the right since the motor door is on the left. I too was concerned about the router table on the left BUT I have been fine with it, however I must admit there are operations that I prefer to be in front of the router table for, but I have more than one router table...

[Victor Robinson]

On the PCS the router must be on the right since the motor door is on the left. I too was concerned about the router table on the left BUT I have been fine with it, however I must admit there are operations that I prefer to be in front of the router table for, but I have more than one router table...

Ah yes, forgot about the motor door.

[Michael Peet]

Also good to hear that the regular TS-LS fence works on the PCS...my next question was going to be whether I needed the XL version (Michael this is true right?).

I don't think you need the XL because the PCS is narrower than the industrial version, like most other saws.

In case you didn't see it, I updated my first post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?157602-Incra-LS-TS-on-Sawstop-your-thoughts&p=1613736#post1613736) with pics.

Cheers,

Mike

[Glen Blanchard]

It probably still won't uninterest me in the Incra though - it's the repeatability I'm after.

Victor - I'm not taking anything away from the Incra fence as it is a great product, no doubt. However, I have the ICS with the SS fence AND all the repeatability one could desire via the Wixey table saw fence digital readout. Just as repeatable as the Incra. Now for micro-adjustments, it's a bit more dicey. Just another option.

[Victor Robinson]

Victor - I'm not taking anything away from the Incra fence as it is a great product, no doubt. However, I have the ICS with the SS fence AND all the repeatability one could desire via the Wixey table saw fence digital readout. Just as repeatable as the Incra. Now for micro-adjustments, it's a bit more dicey. Just another option.

Hey Glen -

Actually, that's the other option I'm seriously considering. I know the Wixey would take some of the guesswork out of setting the fence. But actually, I've found when I want to cut something a certain width based on setting the fence at a certain measurement, the SS fence does just fine and locks down right on that spot. If I want to cut something 4" wide and lock the fence as close as I can to 4", I'm usually only off by a few thou.

However, I frequently find myself trying to replicate sizes by lining up another part between blade and fence, or widening grooves ever so slightly, etc. It is these times that, though the fence locks down where the cursor says it will, also shifts slightly in terms of the fence-to-blade distance (not at the cursor). I think this is a micro-adjustability issue/desire.

That all being said, the cost difference between the Incra fence and the Wixey is actually fairly negligible assuming I'm able to sell the SS fence and rails for a fair price (and maybe that's a misguided assumption).

[Don Bullock]

Hey Glen -

Actually, that's the other option I'm seriously considering. I know the Wixey would take some of the guesswork out of setting the fence. But actually, I've found when I want to cut something a certain width based on setting the fence at a certain measurement, the SS fence does just fine and locks down right on that spot. If I want to cut something 4" wide and lock the fence as close as I can to 4", I'm usually only off by a few thou.
....

Are you sure the few thou you're off isn't caused by your blade? It could be bent enough to cause the difference.

[Glen Blanchard]

Hey Glen -

But actually, I've found when I want to cut something a certain width based on setting the fence at a certain measurement, the SS fence does just fine and locks down right on that spot. If I want to cut something 4" wide and lock the fence as close as I can to 4", I'm usually only off by a few thou.


I use my Wixey on my SS almost exclusively. The fence does indeed require a little tap-tap-tap a few times to get it on the nose, but that's just because there is no micro-adjuster.

[Michael Causey]

Victor,

I have a Sawstop PCS with Incra TS-LS Combo #2 (router table, 32" rails, Wonderfence) on order. I hope it works well and installation is easy. If you email Incra, they will answer all your questions, but Mark will strongly suggest you have a separate router table if you have the space. I have a Kreg router table, but find it a bit inaccurate and cumbersome. I want the repeatability, ease of use, and accuracy of the Incra.

I'm new to woodworking, but I'm confident this set-up will work great. The only issue I've anticipated is you must install the router table on the right side, which makes the use of the router table cumbersome. I'm going to try to reverse the normal position of the table and then flip the positioner 180 degrees to use the table. I'll see how that works. Incra says it's not hard to flip the positioner.

I'm hoping I can hook up my SS to my Festool CT36. Someone here did that claim good results. I'm hopeful, but a bit skeptical. He promised a video, but that didn't materialize.

Good luck.

[Tom Ward]

I noticed Mike Peet started this thread and posted the photos. My questions are what was the cost for this mod to the Sawstop, and have there been any adjustments or changes he might make? I'm interested in a SS and also like Incra products for the accuracy. It would seem to help hold all the cast iron wings up better than the Incra rails. Has anyone from SS or Incra offered an opinion or commented on this joining of products?

[fRED mCnEILL]

I switched from a Beis fence with the Wixey DRO to the Incra with the 52" rails. LOVE-LOVE-LOVE IT.I cut a lot of sheet goods and one of the things the bothered me when I first got it was having to reposition the positioner when ripping over 31 wide. In particular what I didn't like was having to lean over the saw to tighten the knobs on the other side. But then I discovered that in was only necessary to tighten the two knob on one side. The fence is plenty ridgid that way. I am frankly amazed at how ridgid the fence setup is. I was concerned when I first got it but that has not proved to be a problem. One of the things I like about the Wixey was it was easy for my old eyes to read it-one of the things I didn't like what it constanly got out of calibration. No problem with the incra as its all mechanical. Still have the old eyes problem but I solved that by mounitng an led light to shine on the scale. Did I mention how much I love thie Incra. Gave the Beis to my friend.