Anyone know of a decently priced source of mirrors?

[Jay Steel]

No doubt it's my fault for not keeping up on the maintenance on my laser, but in any case,
I need a new .75" round mirror. I was taken aback, no, actually I felt like we laser owners get screwed anytime we need a part or service, but anyway $118.00 seems like an awful lot of money for a three quarter inch round mirror. So I ask you? I was surfing and saw a a couple sites offering the same size mirror for crafts and stuff for like $1.00 a piece is there really one hundred seventeen dollars difference between the two mirrors???? Has anyone used a cheap mirror? What was the result? I figure if I install a cheap mirror the worst that could happen is that I get a messed up engrave, then be forced to buy an overpriced one, excuse me, optical quality mirror. Or am I wrong? Anyone have a source to get mirrors and lenses for a little less? Thanks, Jeff

[David Fairfield]

Oops, didn't realize the nature of the mirrors in question

[Mike Null]

I think you are not recognizing the quality nor precision of the laser mirrors. I agree prices seem high but I wouldn't think of using your substitute.

[Dan Hintz]

The ones sold on eBay for $10 are exactly the same front-surface, metallized mirrors found on all of our machines. I would never spend $100+ on a mirror unless the cut was somehow unique.

[Larry Bratton]

Genuine Epilog mirrors are only $40.00 last time I checked

[Mike Null]

Dan

I would be concerned about mounting and focusing if those mirrors are loose. My mirrors are mounted to a piece of metal in what appears to be a fixed position. If I were to buy a loose mirror I would be worried about mounting it on the metal holder in the original focused position.

Would that be a concern of yours?

[Gary Hair]

Dan

I would be concerned about mounting and focusing if those mirrors are loose. My mirrors are mounted to a piece of metal in what appears to be a fixed position. If I were to buy a loose mirror I would be worried about mounting it on the metal holder in the original focused position.

Would that be a concern of yours?

I'm pretty sure most lasers use the same mounting method, a mirror attached to a metal mounting piece of some sort. Since the mirrors are adjustable then I don't think it would matter too much if they were mounted to the metal piece a tiny bit off, you could just adjust them to re-align. There is no "focus" in a mirror, they simply reflect - the angle in = the angle out (same thing in a bank shot playing pool...). I will be changing a couple of my mirrors and my dilemna is that I need 3/4" mirrors and have 6 brand-new 1" mirrors that won't fit - I am going to try and cut one of them and I have no idea if that will ruin it or not, fortunately I got them for nothing so it's no loss if they don't work.

Gary

[Dan Hintz]

Mike, Gary got it...



Gary, place a piece of lens tissue over the front surface of the mirror (make sure it's clean)... you can wet it with some cleaning solution to make it stick, if that's easier for you. Flip it over onto a cotton microfiber towel (a tight mesh as opposed to other towels) and score it like any other piece of glass. Place a pencil (or similar small item) under the towel at the score line. Snap. Mount. Have a beer...

[Gary Hair]

Gary, place a piece of lens tissue over the front surface of the mirror (make sure it's clean)... you can wet it with some cleaning solution to make it stick, if that's easier for you. Flip it over onto a cotton microfiber towel (a tight mesh as opposed to other towels) and score it like any other piece of glass. Place a pencil (or similar small item) under the towel at the score line. Snap. Mount. Have a beer...

You're two for two today Dan and I'm striking out... I have never looked closely at the mirrors until I read your post. I have always assumed (very bad word) that they were metal with a reflective coating, not glass. Why I didn't think that they were glass, like any other mirror I have ever seen, I'm not sure, but at first glance they do look metallic. Thanks for the tip, I'll try it later today.

Gary

[Mike Null]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself sufficiently. My mirror on the laser head is not adjustable, has an anodized aluminum backing. My question is: if I must remove this backing and remount with adhesive it will almost certainly be out of focus (this is a lens going into a fixed mount) I am concerned that a self applied adhesive will cause the mirror to deflect the beam inaccurately.

Do these low cost mirrors come with that metal backing?

[Gary Hair]

Mike,
The mirror on the laser head isn't adjustable because the mirror and lens are in fixed positions, not moveable like the rest of the mirrors, they are at a 45 degree angle to each other. Unless you are very sloppy with the adhesive it would be pretty difficult to get the mirror too far out of alignment with the lens. I plan on using a very thin coat of epoxy and I am completely confident that it will spread out sufficiently that there will be no chance of it being out of alignment (you mention focus, but that is only applicable to the lens, not the mirrors). As for the metal backing coming with the mirror - no, you just get the mirror. The reason being that there are different mounting plates for every laser and all you have to do is remove your mirror and replace it.

Gary

[Richard Rumancik]

Jay, a simple glass mirror will etch itself the first time a laser beam hits it. You need to have a metallized surface (often gold) so that ideally 99.9%+ of the energy reflects. (I don't know the exact number offhand for gold.) Plus they need to be very flat. Energy that is not reflected is absorbed, which means a loss of power at the workpiece and heating of the optic.

So you need a proper laser mirror. I did not know you could get $10 mirrors on eBay. I recently bought a $40 mirror from a dealer for the Chinese lasers and thought that was a good deal. Visually it looks the same as factory but I have not tried it yet.

Gary, some laser mirrors are gold plated copper. But silicon is cheaper. It still looks like metal because its the front surface that is metallized.

Mike, on my LaserPro my last mirror (just before the focus lens) is not adjustable either. It is just a flat plate with a clamping screw. I would think that if you cleaned the plate and use cyanoacrylate adhesive with some pressure you could mount a new mirror parallel to the plate. But in actual fact, on my machine, the last mirror was out of alignment from the factory. There is no adjustment on it, yet I could not do a proper beam alignment unless I adjusted it myself. What I did was place a shim of .007" under the one clamping surface. This caused a rotational correction about the y-axis. Now if it had been out in the other axis, I don't know what could have been done. It never seemed right to me that there is no adjustment on the last mirror.

There are all kinds of backing pieces for the mirrors - in fact there are three different backers on my machine alone (with 4 mirrors total.)
The eBay and Chinese mirrors are usually just unmounted mirrors.

[Gary Hair]

It never seemed right to me that there is no adjustment on the last mirror.

The lens is in a fixed position and the mirror should be at a 45 to the lens. Since the lens never moves it can't get out of alignment with the mirror. If the manufacturer can't get a 45 right then there are bigger problems...

Gary

[Mike Null]

Gary

You are right to use the term "alignment" instead of focus for the mirror but my concern is still there. I believe it can be replaced with one of the cheap options and be out of alignment.

It won't be the first time I was wrong---nor the last.

[Richard Rumancik]

Gary, I know what you are saying, but I don't think it is as simple as making one 45 degree angled surface. There is not just one angle involved.

There is a tolerance on the axis of the focus lens in the holder; there is some play in the slot in which the lens sits (at least in mine, the lens goes into a slot, but the holder is not actually clamped to a datum surface.) Then there is possible error in the axis at which the carriage is mounted. There is an angular tolerance between the plane of the lens slots and the stops which generate the 45 degree mirror angle. And axis error of the last mirror on its plate, even if small, is still a contribution. Also, you cannot ensure the beam reflecting off the second-last mirror is parallel to the x-rail (or table). This is because beam alignment is a compromise at best, where you are trying to optimize alignment in 4 corners of the table simultaneously. Perfection in 4 corners is mutually exclusive. So my point is that a fixed final mirror did not seem right, with all the other possible axis errors involved. It is possible that my carriage is actually machined properly at 45 and one of the other errors is throwing out the final beam position. But a shim was the only way I could think of to correct the situation.

They could have allowed a final correction about the y-axis, which could have been done with a simple eccentric pin instead of a fixed stop. I don't think a full tripod leveler would be needed, and the designers probably would not want to do that due to the weight it would add to the carriage.

[Dan Hintz]

Holy schmoly, prices have gone up on eBay mirrors... those things use to go for $10 a couple of years ago, now they're as expensive as the ZnSe lenses. Obviously it's time to move on from eBay for such purposes. There's nothing special about them, they're just metallized front-surface slags of glass... a proper lapping of a solid piece of metal would do the same.


The distance between the last mirror and the focusing lens is on the order of 1-2"... even a (relatively) gross alignment of a couple of degrees will not cause any serious issues with power. If there is not adjustment screws for the final mount, it's a safe bet that a very thin layer of adhesive will not effect the overall angle, so have at it.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I'm pretty sure most lasers use the same mounting method, a mirror attached to a metal mounting piece of some sort. Since the mirrors are adjustable then I don't think it would matter too much if they were mounted to the metal piece a tiny bit off, you could just adjust them to re-align. There is no "focus" in a mirror, they simply reflect - the angle in = the angle out (same thing in a bank shot playing pool...). I will be changing a couple of my mirrors and my dilemna is that I need 3/4" mirrors and have 6 brand-new 1" mirrors that won't fit - I am going to try and cut one of them and I have no idea if that will ruin it or not, fortunately I got them for nothing so it's no loss if they don't work.

Gary

Gary,

If these are laser optics you will not be able to cut or even score them with your laser. I would be very careful if you try. These mirrors will reflect the beam.

If it is regular mirror then disregard this, although you cannot use just regular mirror to reflect the laser beam in a system they will get too hot and break.

[Gary Hair]

Mike,
It is a laser mirror and Dan mentioned scoring it with a glass cutter and then breaking it like you would glass. I came into 6 of them for nothing and although they are too large to fit as is, I thought I could cut them somehow - if I ruin them, so be it, but I'll at least try to cut them.

Gary

[Ron Thompson]

I use Tripar http://www.tripar.com

Great selection.

Ron Thompson

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . I will be changing a couple of my mirrors and my dilemna is that I need 3/4" mirrors and have 6 brand-new 1" mirrors that won't fit . . .

So you need to chop off .125" from each side. Do you need to chop it both axes, or can you accept an "obround" mirror? I assume it does not have to be round. I was thinking that snapping off a .125" edge might be pretty tough. Nothing to get any leverage on. If you just wanted to remove .125" from two opposite edges, then maybe you could mask the mirrors somehow and sandblast the glass away with silicon carbide. (If you are not into sandcarving then maybe you could locate someone to help.) The price of mirrors would make it worthwhile.

A glass shop might also be able to grind it off - they will not have appreciation for the value of the mirror so you would have to come up with a good way to protect the coating and watch over their shoulder.

[Richard Rumancik]

Ok, Ron, my curiosity is aroused - what do you buy from Tripar?

[Gary Hair]

So you need to chop off .125" from each side. Do you need to chop it both axes, or can you accept an "obround" mirror?
In my mind I need to take some off both edges, but in reality that's not necessary. Any sane person would probably just take off .25 from one side...


I assume it does not have to be round. I was thinking that snapping off a .125" edge might be pretty tough. Nothing to get any leverage on. If you just wanted to remove .125" from two opposite edges, then maybe you could mask the mirrors somehow and sandblast the glass away with silicon carbide. (If you are not into sandcarving then maybe you could locate someone to help.) The price of mirrors would make it worthwhile.
I thing taking the .25 from one side may give me enough leverage, if not, I do sandcarving and have some #70 AO that should do the trick - great idea!


A glass shop might also be able to grind it off - they will not have appreciation for the value of the mirror so you would have to come up with a good way to protect the coating and watch over their shoulder.

Since I have so many, I'll try to cut it first, then sandblast and use the glass shop as a last resort. I think if I have to resort to the glass shop I'll figure out a way to mask off the coating so they can't scratch it.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm sure that some combination of the three will work and I'll have brand-new mirrors for nothing more than a bit of time.

Gary

[Mike Null]

Gary

If I had a half dozen of those I think I'd try a belt sander to grind one down to size.

[Martin Boekers]

Jay, how long have you had your laser? I have been running 2 Epilogs over 8 years total and only replaced a mirror once. (my fault,
scratched it in cleaning) with proper care, mirrors shouldn't be considered a consumable. If you are going through mirrors check your
procedures. What laser are you running, that may help with others recommending alternative sources.


Marty

[Gary Hair]

Great idea Mike - unfortunately that is one of the very few woodworking tools I don't have... I guess now would be a good time to buy one though!

Gary

[Jay Steel]

I agree that's why I started the post. So I bought a couple 20mm gold plated reflective mirror for $19.50 a piece from lightobject.com here's the link --- http://www.lightobject.com/CNC-CO2-Laser-C11.aspx --- I have to remove the old mirror and glue the new one on the holder, I plan on using Loc Tite 403 Prizm glue sold on Laserbits. The site says the mirror is good for lasers that take a 20mm diameter reflection lens and is good for 40W or lower power CO2 laser (which my laser is). So being the Guru, is this a good choice????

[Dan Hintz]

It's good for quite a bit more than 40W, but they're just repackaging Chinese units, so they don't know any better.

[Jay Steel]

I bought this laser just over 3 years ago. When I first got it I messed around with it for a couple hours cutting and engraved wood and plastics. Shorty thereafter I was having marital problems and the laser sat in my wifes basement for a couple years. I couldn't find anyone to move it, seemed to me no one wanted to take the chance on moving such a high priced piece of equipment, where the laser was there was no access to get a lift gate to it, we had a heck of a time getting the machine were it was upon initial delivery. Severely sloped driveway. So as mentioned after a couple years of sitting I finally got the nerve to rent a van and ramps and pulleys and stuff and moved the darn thing myself with a couple friends. Actually, the move went quite smoothly with no hitches, I conjured up all these nightmares of dropping he machine, which the company told me weighed over 650 pounds - it doesn't weigh nearly as much.So the move went smoothly. I hooked it up and off and on was engraving delrin and cutting it for several hours. I'm guilty as of yet I hadn't cleaned the optics although I blew it of fairly often with compressed air. Frankly I was scared of messing something up. But over the weekend I finally mustered up the courage to service the machine. So I cleaned all the lenses with 92% alcohol and cotton swabs and the lenses cleaned up nicely, I guess I was lucky after all the time that had passed. But the #3 mirror as Accuris calls it, had this bubbly stuff all over it, particularly the edges, alcohol didn't make a dent on cleaning it up so I went to a camera store and bought their lens cleaner and it didn't make much of a difference either. So I diluted some car scratch remover and it worked a little but didn't remove it all, it's like a bubbly stuff on the mirror. But there aren't any big scratches on the mirror just some haze, minor I would say. The mirror reflects but again it's a little hazy. I figure I'd replace the mirror and get on a strict schedule of cleaning the optics, as I guess I learned my lesson, and found it's not that big of a deal to do. So I call Signwarehouse where I bought the machine and their price was just shy of $100.00 for the mirror and mount so I ordered the mirror and then after they call me and tell me their out of stock and it was going to be about 30 to 45 days to fill the order. So I go to Laserbits and the mirror is $118.00 plus mounting glue $14.00 so I'm frustrated with both the price for such a small mirror and the fact Signwarehouse is out of stock. I'm starting a business and if I was somewhat involved with orders what do I tell folks? Sorry I blew out a mirror you have to wait 30 to 45 day - maybe more to fill your order - I would imagine I'd be out of business. So I see the mirrors on Ebay for a lot less, that's why I posted that every time I think I need a part I'm going to be taken advantage of. And as you know certainly can't afford to be out of business or down for such a long period of time. So I'm not blowing out mirrors as a consumable it's just I didn't clean the optics properly, again entirely my fault. Anyway I find this source lightobjects.com which sells a mirror they tell me will work fine, it's a 20mm diameter reflection lens good for 40W or lower power CO2 laser, which my laser is rated at 35watt. Here's the link --- http://www.lightobject.com/20mm-Gold-Plated-Reflection-Mirror-P116.aspx--- so I ordered two and plan on using Loc Tite 403 Prizm glue to mount the lens. That's the story. What do you think?I hope I get as much service out of my machine as you, this has me so concerned that I'm considering buying a back up machine so I can buy some time if I have any other problems. Thanks, Jay

[Jay Steel]

QUOTE=Jay Steel;1613324]I bought this laser just over 3 years ago. When I first got it I messed around with it for a couple hours cutting and engraved wood and plastics. Shorty thereafter I was having marital problems and the laser sat in my wifes basement for a couple years. I couldn't find anyone to move it, seemed to me no one wanted to take the chance on moving such a high priced piece of equipment, where the laser was there was no access to get a lift gate to it, we had a heck of a time getting the machine were it was upon initial delivery. Severely sloped driveway. So as mentioned after a couple years of sitting I finally got the nerve to rent a van and ramps and pulleys and stuff and moved the darn thing myself with a couple friends. Actually, the move went quite smoothly with no hitches, I conjured up all these nightmares of dropping he machine, which the company told me weighed over 650 pounds - it doesn't weigh nearly as much.So the move went smoothly. I hooked it up and off and on was engraving delrin and cutting it for several hours. I'm guilty as of yet I hadn't cleaned the optics although I blew it of fairly often with compressed air. Frankly I was scared of messing something up. But over the weekend I finally mustered up the courage to service the machine. So I cleaned all the lenses with 92% alcohol and cotton swabs and the lenses cleaned up nicely, I guess I was lucky after all the time that had passed. But the #3 mirror as Accuris calls it, had this bubbly stuff all over it, particularly the edges, alcohol didn't make a dent on cleaning it up so I went to a camera store and bought their lens cleaner and it didn't make much of a difference either. So I diluted some car scratch remover and it worked a little but didn't remove it all, it's like a bubbly stuff on the mirror. But there aren't any big scratches on the mirror just some haze, minor I would say. The mirror reflects but again it's a little hazy. I figure I'd replace the mirror and get on a strict schedule of cleaning the optics, as I guess I learned my lesson, and found it's not that big of a deal to do. So I call Signwarehouse where I bought the machine and their price was just shy of $100.00 for the mirror and mount so I ordered the mirror and then after they call me and tell me their out of stock and it was going to be about 30 to 45 days to fill the order. So I go to Laserbits and the mirror is $118.00 plus mounting glue $14.00 so I'm frustrated with both the price for such a small mirror and the fact Signwarehouse is out of stock. I'm starting a business and if I was somewhat involved with orders what do I tell folks? Sorry I blew out a mirror you have to wait 30 to 45 day - maybe more to fill your order - I would imagine I'd be out of business. So I see the mirrors on Ebay for a lot less, that's why I posted that every time I think I need a part I'm going to be taken advantage of. And as you know certainly can't afford to be out of business or down for such a long period of time. So I'm not blowing out mirrors as a consumable it's just I didn't clean the optics properly, again entirely my fault. Anyway I find this source lightobjects.com which sells a mirror they tell me will work fine, it's a 20mm diameter reflection lens good for 40W or lower power CO2 laser, which my laser is rated at 35watt. Here's the link --- http://www.lightobject.com/20mm-Gold-Plated-Reflection-Mirror-P116.aspx--- so I ordered two and plan on using Loc Tite 403 Prizm glue to mount the lens. That's the story. What do you think?I hope I get as much service out of my machine as you, this has me so concerned that I'm considering buying a back up machine so I can buy some time if I have any other problems. Thanks, Jay[/QUOTE]

[Dan Hintz]

So I diluted some car scratch remover...

But there aren't any big scratches on the mirror just some haze
This is one of the worst things you could possibly have chosen to clean your mirrors. These are front-surface mirrors, which means there is no glass to protect the reflective surface. That haze you see is the multitude of micro scratches you added.

BTW, try to add some carriage returns from time to time... your post was difficult to read.

[Richard Rumancik]

Jay, don't worry about the mirror - just a minor mistake and it might not have been usable anyway. The LightObject website is probably as good as any for spare mirrors - the price is right. Your plan will probably work fine.

Juts keep reading and you will learn more about your machine; get the manual and read everything. Also don't forget to search this forum about specific issues you are having. Then if there is something you could not find an answer to just ask and somebody will try to help.

As far as buying a backup machine - I would suggest that you wait till you really have some serious cash flow. In place of a backup machine you might consider a few spare parts - it would be a whole lot cheaper. Buy a few more mirrors and have a couple spare lenses at least. Spare parts can be expensive but you should not need a spare machine. You could ask your dealer about where parts are stocked and expected delivery (such as motors) and make appropriate decisions. It would be hard to guess which parts will fail however.

Most of the members here don't have a backup machine and can usually get parts in a few days or a week. Yes, a week could hurt but to have a second machine sitting around unused and depreciating would be expensive as well. If you really can generate enough work to keep two machines busy that is a different story but I'd suggest that you wait till you have the work to warrant another machine.

[Gary Hair]

I plan on using Loc Tite 403 Prizm glue sold on Laserbits.

Instead of Laserbits for $14.89 you could get it here for $5.66 http://www.rshughes.com/products/079340_40304.html

Gary

[Jay Steel]

Good advice, thanks Richard

[Jay Steel]

Thanks Gary, See what I mean though, just like I mentioned in the first post, I always feel like I'm getting taken advantage of. Thanks again.