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Michael Hunter
01-16-2011, 8:14 AM
There seem to be lots of different airbrushes available and I wondered if anyone could recommend which type to get?

I suspect that it would be easier to "swirl" the cermark in the suction-from-a-glass-bottle type (to keep it mixed and in suspension), but perhaps the gravity-fed ones have other advantages?

Also cleaning - I would want one which was easy to keep clean between occasional uses.

Thanks

Joe Pelonio
01-16-2011, 9:43 AM
I have tried it in both types, also in the Aztec which is a unique airbrush that uses a shorter plastic needle. I have not seen any difference. Cleaning an airbrush is always a pain, I run some denatured alcohol through it and back into a bottle to store for thinning later, then use 409 or similar product with water to flush and clean. I only use the airbrush when doing a big job, for 1-2 small items it's too much trouble so either the tape or a very fine artists brush is easier.

Dee Gallo
01-16-2011, 10:17 AM
If you are a novice, get the single action siphon feed airbrush. Gravity feed airbrushes (dual action) use needles rather than cones and are MUCH harder to maintain correctly. Once you remove the needle for cleaning, you can easily pop out the spring and then it's a half hour of fiddling with tiny parts to get back up and running if you don't have experience.

Other than that, siphon feeds will clog BEFORE they spit, gravity feeds will just throw up on your work if they clog.

cheers, dee

Mike Null
01-16-2011, 10:22 AM
I have 4. My favorite for Cermark is a Badger that I bought at the hobby shop for about $15. I keep it ready with Cermark and will even do small jobs with it. When finished I run dna through it and put it away. All are siphon feed.

Michael Hunter
01-16-2011, 11:12 AM
Thanks everyone - especially Dee.

That was exactly the sort of advice I was looking for and I can now go ahead and buy a suction-feed one knowing that I'm getting the right tool for the job.
Since the suction-feed ones are generally much cheaper than the gravity-fed type, I was worried that I migh end up with an inferior tool.

I have a job making small stainless steel rating plates and had intended to use the plaster-of-paris method. Although the engraving was OK, the thin plates warped because of the heat from the laser, so no good for my customer.
I tried cermark (painted on with a brush) with good results and no warping of the metal. As a bonus, the sample plates took half the time with cermark (rastered) than they did with plaster (vectored), so the extra expense of cermark is easily made up with the time saved.

Dee Gallo
01-16-2011, 3:12 PM
I agree with Mike, I use a single action Badger for Cermark with a #3 tip - never clogs or has a problem. They are cheap but sturdy and easy to clean.

BTW- when using Cermark, I just clean with water (per manufacturer's instructions). I dump out the extra Cermark, run warm water into the cup with the nozzle wide open, remove the cup, hold the airbrush upside down and run water through with air, then remove the cone & nozzle for pipe cleaning, then reassemble. Never takes more than a minute tops.

I highly recommend getting some wired pipe cleaners for cleaning, it will save you a lot of time cleaning the siphon, nozzle and cone, as they are the perfect size with a little scrubbing power.

:) dee

Richard Rumancik
01-17-2011, 11:28 AM
I use a cheap $10 airbrush as well. I found that the o-ring inside degrades with time (maybe it is the DNA) and since I don't know where to get .125" diam o-rings I retire the airbrush after 3-4 jobs with Cermark. Maybe I'll try Dee's suggestions for cleaning with water and see if that helps.

I'm attaching a pdf from Ferro with their suggestions. Many of us are using the Badger style brush, not the Paasche style, for applying Cermark. A compressor is pretty much essential.

Don't want to hijack your thread, but you said you were using the the Plaster of Paris method with vector, and Cermark with raster. I'm curious as to why you were using vector with the PoP. What kind of results have you had with PoP in general? There were a lot of postings when this first came up, but I am interested to know whether anyone is successfully using PoP as a Cermark alternative. I did a bit of experimentation at the time and did not have promising results. I got a mark, but it was not as black nor was it as solid as Cermark.

Dee Gallo
01-17-2011, 12:47 PM
I use a cheap $10 airbrush as well. I found that the o-ring inside degrades with time (maybe it is the DNA) and since I don't know where to get .125" diam o-rings I retire the airbrush after 3-4 jobs with Cermark. Maybe I'll try Dee's suggestions for cleaning with water and see if that helps.

I'm attaching a pdf from Ferro with their suggestions. Many of us are using the Badger style brush, not the Paasche style, for applying Cermark. A compressor is pretty much essential.

I would not advocate using a $10 airbrush - the ones with plastic bodies are infamous for losing thread so parts don't screw together well after a short time. The Aztek is one that looks really good but feels too light and paint sticks to the plastic parts like mad. Badgers are small in the hand and easy to clean, but not particularly long lasting if you are using heavy bodied paint (Cermark) or spray at high pressures (40-60) because the white metal is cheap. Personally, I prefer the Paasche single action brushes for almost every application since they are very versatile and easy to control. The metal is much more substantial than Badgers. You can do everything from large murals to fine portraits using house paint to lacquer to watercolors to Cermark. At $56, I consider that a cheap airbrush that will last for years. I have some that cost $200-400 and they are only as good as the person holding them.

My two cents for the day, dee

Michael Hunter
01-17-2011, 12:52 PM
Richard

Thanks for the pdf. The car accessories barns sell the Badger for a reasonable price, so I will pick one up on my way home tomorrow.

I found that the PoP process needs more power than can be reasonably achieved with raster (unless you go VERY slowly), but works quite well when vectored on stainless steel.
The mark is dark brown, rather than black, and it eats into the surface of the metal a bit, so is OK for "indelible" signs*.

After this weekend's trial on the small labels, it has become clear that unless indelible is vital, then cermark does a nicer job faster, and without the risk of warping the metal. I'll reserve PoP for bigger jobs.

I did try PoP on a hard grade of aluminium. I could not make a mark at all, let alone the range of colours some had reported. I ran it at 1% speed and the Y motor stalled - even after about a minute on the same spot it had not made a mark.

* I quoted for light aircraft registration plaques in cermark, but the customer would not accept them as cermark can be removed completely with abrasive (a key requirement for these plaques is that they are totally indistructable).
I showed him the PoP version and he said that would be fine - but I'm still waiting for the order :(.


In the first photo, I had attacked the marking with carborundum paper.

Richard Rumancik
01-17-2011, 1:23 PM
Regarding cheap airbrushes - I can't say I have had any significant problems with the cheap ones other than o-rings. But I guess it depends on which company made it.


. . . Personally, I prefer the Paasche single action brushes for almost every application since they are very versatile and easy to control. . .

Just to clarify - Ferro was recommending the Paasche double-action. I saw the small cup and thought the VL and VLS were gravity brushes. They are not (although they can be gravity fed.) I was expecting to see a jar with the siphon brushes, not a small cup, but I guess a jar is an option. But you are suggesting a single-action siphon Paasche instead of VL/VLS.


At $56, I consider that a cheap airbrush that will last for years. I have some that cost $200-400 and they are only as good as the person holding them.

You may be right, Dee, perhaps it would make sense to get a better one. I started on this path when I got into Cermark without any knowledge of airbrushing, as I did not want to invest a lot experimenting. As far as the $200-400 brushes - I have seen your work and know it makes sense for you; but I can tell you right now, they would not be a good use of money in my hands . . .

Richard Rumancik
01-17-2011, 1:27 PM
Michael - Thanks for the photos. As far as aluminum goes - I don't think anyone has had good success with Cermark on aluminum either. Those that say that they have marked aluminum have to go so slow with the raster that I have some doubts that it is practicable for production.