New Saw Handle.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi all. Some of you may remember the 1st dovetail saw I made up.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/1st%20dovetail%20saw/SDC10715.jpg

I wasn't totally happy with the hang angle of the saw handle so decided to make a new one. Changing tack I decided to make this a closed handle, 4 finger grip, clear finish, and made out of jarrah. This was the basic shape prior to contouring.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/1st%20dovetail%20saw/SDC10725.jpg

And this is the final result. All hand shaped.

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/1st%20dovetail%20saw/SDC10730.jpg

http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af219/swagman001/1st%20dovetail%20saw/SDC10731.jpg

The handle will need a final buffing in a couple of days when the lacquer has fully hardened . There is plenty of room to grip the handle compared to a standard dovetail saw handle. I like the feel of having the 4 fingers wrapped around the grip of the handle. The only thing I would change with the next time is increase the thickness from 23mm to 28mm.

Please feel free to add your opinions on the new handle design. Positive or negative.


Stewie.

[Andrew Gibson]

I think it looks very nice. Very interesting design and pleasing to look at. If it is comfortable to use that is all that matters.

[george wilson]

That handle will be easy to break. It has thin sections with nothing but mostly cross grain to support it.

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting rendition.

Kind of looks like a Texas Longhorn with its head tilted to one side.

jtk

[Stewie Simpson]

I think it looks very nice. Very interesting design and pleasing to look at. If it is comfortable to use that is all that matters.

Thanks for the feedback Andrew.

[Stewie Simpson]

That handle will be easy to break. It has thin sections with nothing but mostly cross grain to support it.

Hi George. There are open saw handles in use with less structural strength than this closed handle version.

Thanks for your feedback.

Stewie.

[Stewie Simpson]

Interesting rendition.

Kind of looks like a Texas Longhorn with its head tilted to one side.

jtk

Hi Jim. Kind of feel sorry for the Longhorn.

Stewie.

[george wilson]

The open handles you refer to have the grain of their wood running diagonally through the section that connects them to the handle,making them strong,as you seem to have done on your last handle. With your long,S curve parts,so thin and sinuous,it is not possible to have that strength. Yours has a lot of nearly cross grain in places. You should look carefully at this aspect. Also,back saws are usually made for a 3 finger grip with 1 finger laying down the side of the saw to help the sense of directionality. Your handle places the top finger too high to allow that.

Anyway,you asked for both types of feedback. If you don't want to heed mine,that's o.k.. What do I know anyway?:)

[Stewie Simpson]

The open handles you refer to have the grain of their wood running diagonally through the section that connects them to the handle,making them strong,as you seem to have done on your last handle. With your long,S curve parts,so thin and sinuous,it is not possible to have that strength. Yours has a lot of nearly cross grain in places. You should look carefully at this aspect. Also,back saws are usually made for a 3 finger grip with 1 finger laying down the side of the saw to help the sense of directionality. Your handle places the top finger too high to allow that.

Anyway,you asked for both types of feedback. If you don't want to heed mine,that's o.k.. What do I know anyway?:)


Now dont be like that George. I have deep admiration for the work you have accomplished. I will take your advise onboard when I build the next saw handle.

Regards Stewie.

[george wilson]

It would have been better for you to say that to begin with,Stewie. The answer sounded like a summary dismissal of my helpful and correct observation,which you asked for. If I had to make that handle,I'd suggest sawing the wood up into laminations and orienting the layers so that the cross grained portions would be minimized,though I would not like to make a laminated handle,either.
I realize that it can be difficult to see something wrong with a project you have just put time and energy into,but it has happened to me plenty of times. That's how you develop.

[Marv Werner]

Stewie,

I admire the fact that you got outside the proverbial box to make that handle. I tend to think in those terms also. Tradition is not always the best way to go. Tradition can be downright boring and repetitious. Replicas are quite common and usually not made exactly as the originals. If they were, it would be impressive. Otherwise, they are just semi-copies with little or no imagination.

What I see in your handle is a lot of work and creativity and I would not say anything to discourage you from continuing to come up with more far out designs.

I offer only one suggestion.... it can be deceiving when drawing the shape of the handle and then rough cutting it to shape. I have found it best to make the handgrip and other thin sections bigger than they need to be. Then when you do the actual shaping, you have plenty of wood to work with. A section will look big enough, but when you add the radius's, they suddenly look and can be too small.

So, keep up the good work and surprise us with another one-of-a-kind creation. :)

[John Powers]

I stay out of the discussion till it gets into something I know about. Tradition. My guess is that the saw handle was perfected 250 years ago, give or take. I think the last big step forward in the classical guitar was scalloped bracing 100 years ago. Some things are just as good as they're going to get. The grey ghost and the henryville special have been catching trout for 100 years. The grain orientation is good info. My old Stanley 3 and 5 totes both have cracks right across the middle I repaired. How come the grain isn't up and down?

[george wilson]

I am not against innovation. It depends upon how well it's done,doesn't it ? I have the new LV art deco block plane,and like its looks just fine. I don't like all old things,nor do I like all new things.

I will say that it would be VERY rare for a person to suddenly dream up a design that is better than those which were developed over many years by experienced professionals,and used by experienced professionals. People had infinitely better training in design and fine arts than most today do. I do think LV did do that with their new block plane,though.

This isn't to say that they shouldn't try. I've made some "far out" designs myself,but don't have pictures of most of the things I have made.

I was PAID to copy tools in the museum,and if I see one I like a whole lot,I might make one for myself,especially with the very high prices that rare items like the half size salesman's sample smooth plane(which I made from memory) go for. Not being wealthy,I won't drop $5000.00 or $10,000.00 more on such an item.

Making reproductions is not a worthless or unimaginative pursuit. It teaches good design principles that can still be applied to other works,provided you have the eye to copy GOOD stuff to begin with. Then,you have to have developed the eye and skill to pull it off. Making a copy of a good saw handle will stay in your head a LOT better than just looking at a picture of one. It gets drilled into your mind more slowly and more permanently than browsing .

Figuring out how to reproduce a giant cider press with a 12" diameter screw,with 2" wide threads can be pretty imaginative,especially how to thread the hole,when large screws were made by specialists with teams of workers who could muster the power to turn large taps. Especially if you can't spend a year making it. Reproducing the 1802 Chamblee surveyor's compass in the FAQ section was also challenging. I had to make the number stamps and the level vials,too,and do the dead silver plating in the compass rose area. Making the 17th.C. inlaid Italian guitar actually took many years of prep work and drawing background just to draw a decent design,let alone cut it out accurately.

When taking on advanced projects like those, you are attempting to duplicate what the best specialists of the old days of craftsmanship were doing after strict apprenticeships that lasted many years. That is a bit of an order to carry out. It all takes skill and a lot of imagination.

I say get a good classical education in design,then venture out from there. I think it's like developing a good vocabulary and writing skills before trying to write a novel.

[Stewie Simpson]

It would have been better for you to say that to begin with,Stewie. The answer sounded like a summary dismissal of my helpful and correct observation,which you asked for. If I had to make that handle,I'd suggest sawing the wood up into laminations and orienting the layers so that the cross grained portions would be minimized,though I would not like to make a laminated handle,either.
I realize that it can be difficult to see something wrong with a project you have just put time and energy into,but it has happened to me plenty of times. That's how you develop.

Hi George. Far from dismissing your suggestions, I have already started designing a new handle using your feedback as a basis to work with.. The areas you rightly identifed as being too thin will be made thicker.
Is can be easy sometimes to focus on shape as the only fundamental importance, and forget to consider the limitations of strength bound by the raw material being used.


Will keep you posted.

Stewie.

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie,

I admire the fact that you got outside the proverbial box to make that handle. I tend to think in those terms also. Tradition is not always the best way to go. Tradition can be downright boring and repetitious. Replicas are quite common and usually not made exactly as the originals. If they were, it would be impressive. Otherwise, they are just semi-copies with little or no imagination.

What I see in your handle is a lot of work and creativity and I would not say anything to discourage you from continuing to come up with more far out designs.

I offer only one suggestion.... it can be deceiving when drawing the shape of the handle and then rough cutting it to shape. I have found it best to make the handgrip and other thin sections bigger than they need to be. Then when you do the actual shaping, you have plenty of wood to work with. A section will look big enough, but when you add the radius's, they suddenly look and can be too small.

So, keep up the good work and surprise us with another one-of-a-kind creation. :)

Hi Marv. Well thought advise. Thankyou for your ongoing support with the direction I am trying to go.

[Matt Benton]

Was there a post deleted from this thread?

The way it currently reads, George, the OP didn't acknowledge his unending gratitute for your advice within 12 hours of receiving it, so you "assumed" he either didn't agree with or didn't appreciate what you had to say. Does someone as talented as you really need this much validation from others?

He asked for advice, you gave yours, end of story.

[george wilson]

Matt,I want to try to help others keep going in the right direction,and I do happen to know what direction that is in this instance. If my advice not to design thin elements with cross grain members was wrong in your opinion.let me know.

I was just trying to help Stewie,and yes,I do want my advice to be considered. I wish I had had an experienced craftsman to help me along when I was having to learn everything the hard way. Sorry if that sounds egotistical,it is just fact. I have already "been there,done that" on making weak handles,and paid the price of them breaking. I might spare someone else the same,if they do not reject sound advice. His first response sounded like a rejection. I am glad that he clarified that.

I didn't really get good help until I was in college,and luckily met William Reimann. Before that,it was 2 steps forward,and 1 1/2 back. Even then,I have still mostly had to learn the hard way since he wasn't a luthier. He was,and is,a great designer and sculptor.

Now that we have computers and fora like this,years of effort can be spared if good advice is listened to. I have learned many things myself on fora.

[john brenton]

If you've ever worked with a journeyman or a master, then you understand where George is coming from. As a plumber's and carpenter's apprentice I had a couple gurus that were offended when I went another route, and assumed that it meant that I didn't trust their guidance...when it had nothing to do with that. I understand why it would be offensive to them though. When I later became a journeyman plumber I felt the same thing. Sometimes people want to learn for themselves or try out a new method, AND there were times when they were right. Journeyman aren't always right, and I think sometimes we/they can be afraid of being wrong...of having sworn by a particular method that maybe isn't the best or only way. You have kids right? How many times did my mom and everyone around me tell the the way to go and I chose to go my own crooked route?

Also, perhaps we really don't know the full width, breadth and depth of George's experience, talent, knowledge etc.


I much prefer the style of his first handle but agree that it was set too low. The second handle is different and not particularly pleasing to MY eye, but f it's comfortable and pleasing to the owner and designer then that's all that's important. But the question begs to be asked, how much handle strength is really required of a properly sharpened and set saw? The only saw I ever find myself using any real pressure on is my rip saw when I'm ripping anything over 2", and that is mostly unnecessary. For the most part I've learned to let the saw do the work, holding it very lightly and taking full strokes (where possible) with a sharp saw. I'm not arguing, I'm just thinking about it.




Matt,I want to try to help others keep going in the right direction,and I do happen to know what direction that is in this instance. If my advice not to design thin elements with cross grain members was wrong in your opinion.let me know.

[Brian Kent]

Hey George, not to interrupt, but how do you like that new LV block plane in use, compared to the classic LN 60-1/2?

[David Weaver]

I will add another amateur's vote for george's expert-backed comments about starting with a time tested design and making changes minimally. You usually learn an awful lot by copying a few well thought out things first and then making changes later. Fewer mistakes, and the mistakes and errors are less critical.

And I say that only knowing that I don't want to produce any tools where later I might decide that what I did wasn't a good idea. I am much more pleased with the tools I have that are very close to traditional design, and the ones where I strayed a lot and liked at first, I've grown to have a distaste for as time has gone on.

I just cannot see throwing out the details that are a product of centuries of careful thought and incremental improvements until you know which ones can be changed and how to improve them.

Just my opinion, I have built both types of tools, and I understand now where George is coming from. I'm sure he's thought about things 10 times as much as I have, so when i think something and he thinks differently, it causes me to examine whether or not it's opinion or really something to be wary of differing on.

As far as how strong the saw needs to be, not sure as I haven't broken any of my own, but i have seen plenty of saws with broken totes. Whether people are breaking them in use or dropping them, either issue makes the tote just as broken.

Again, just an opinion, and not an intention to cast stones at people who make new designs entire of their own accord because they like to make designs. Your shop, your time, your money, do what you want.

[george wilson]

I like the LV just fine,but I am afraid I'll drop it,it is so slippery(I have the full polished one). It is a tool I enjoy having,though. I'll refrain from comparing it to the LN.

I'll just say they both plane wood equally well. When I was skiving leather,I mentioned than the LN did better,but it had an 01 blade in it which WILL take a keener edge than the A2 of the LV. For wood,though,Ill take the A2. It holds up better. That leather was chrome tanned,and VERY tough and spongy. Terrible stuff to skive.

[Matt Benton]

Can anyone tell me where exactly in my previous post I expressed any doubt about the technical advice George offered? I agree 100% with his point regarding the grain orientation...

[David Weaver]

(I have the full polished one)

High roller!!!

[Brian Kent]

Thanks George. I'll try them both at a woodworking show and get whichever feels better - the LN or the LV with the flat black body for grip and price.

[george wilson]

You didn't disagree,Matt. You just seem to think I am egotistical for wanting my advice to be taken into consideration. What I am really trying to do is give advice which,if I had had when younger,would have saved me a lot of wasted effort,frustration,and materials. I am fully qualified to advise on matters like these,and advise was asked for. Marv's "let it all hang out" philosophy is not valid. Design needs to be well thought out,and in the past,that has meant incremental evolution. I see an incredible amount of pure garbage that is supposed to pass for art in magazines. A lot of it gets accepted by critics who shouldn't be critics. My wife subscribes to some art magazines. It is hard for me to look at some of the work in them. I did study under a modern artist,and one of the foremost sculptors in the World,so I don't shun modern art. Some of these "artists" want to write the book before they learn the language,and it just doesn't work that way.

Stewie just replying that his handle was as strong as other open handled saws was simply not correct. Did that mean he was going to keep going down the same road until his saw caught in the wood,or he dropped it? I wanted to help prevent that. I think Stewie has had the time to think about it,and am glad he has responded in a positive way.

As far as PURE DRAFTSMANSHIP is concerned,omitting any other considerations such as functionality,I think Stewie's new drafting of curves is way better than any other he has posted yet. He drew the curves perfectly well. The lower horn was too thin,but the basic,sawn out curves were well drawn.They weren't "chunky". I hope he keeps going in that direction. Just needs to not get too extreme. Believe me,I am guilty of making extreme designs in earlier work,too.

I agree with David's statement about doing what one likes in his own shop. BUT,it would also be even better to make good progress in one's education in woodworking,too. David knows that himself. If he didn't,he wouldn't have made such a nice plane as the one he just posted. He has learned along the way,and with limited tools,to do good design work.

[Don C Peterson]

I am not against innovation. It depends upon how well it's done,doesn't it ? I have the new LV art deco block plane,and like its looks just fine. I don't like all old things,nor do I like all new things.

I will say that it would be VERY rare for a person to suddenly dream up a design that is better than those which were developed over many years by experienced professionals,and used by experienced professionals. People had infinitely better training in design and fine arts than most today do. I do think LV did do that with their new block plane,though.

This isn't to say that they shouldn't try. I've made some "far out" designs myself,but don't have pictures of most of the things I have made.

I was PAID to copy tools in the museum,and if I see one I like a whole lot,I might make one for myself,especially with the very high prices that rare items like the half size salesman's sample smooth plane(which I made from memory) go for. Not being wealthy,I won't drop $5000.00 or $10,000.00 more on such an item.

Making reproductions is not a worthless or unimaginative pursuit. It teaches good design principles that can still be applied to other works,provided you have the eye to copy GOOD stuff to begin with. Then,you have to have developed the eye and skill to pull it off. Making a copy of a good saw handle will stay in your head a LOT better than just looking at a picture of one. It gets drilled into your mind more slowly and more permanently than browsing .

Figuring out how to reproduce a giant cider press with a 12" diameter screw,with 2" wide threads can be pretty imaginative,especially how to thread the hole,when large screws were made by specialists with teams of workers who could muster the power to turn large taps. Especially if you can't spend a year making it. Reproducing the 1802 Chamblee surveyor's compass in the FAQ section was also challenging. I had to make the number stamps and the level vials,too,and do the dead silver plating in the compass rose area. Making the 17th.C. inlaid Italian guitar actually took many years of prep work and drawing background just to draw a decent design,let alone cut it out accurately.

When taking on advanced projects like those, you are attempting to duplicate what the best specialists of the old days of craftsmanship were doing after strict apprenticeships that lasted many years. That is a bit of an order to carry out. It all takes skill and a lot of imagination.

I say get a good classical education in design,then venture out from there. I think it's like developing a good vocabulary and writing skills before trying to write a novel.

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotations:
"Those who are enamored of practice without theory are like a pilot who goes into a ship without rudder or compass and never has any certainty where he is going. Practice should always be based upon a sound knowledge of theory." --Leonardo da Vinci

To be sure, advances in materials and processes can sometimes yield substantive benefits, but more often than not, it seems to me our ancestors had things pretty well figured out.

[george wilson]

Leonardo and I are in full agreement. He definitely had a sound knowledge of design,engineering,science( for his day) and even had to make his own paints and glazes back in those days. They even had to forge their own sculpting tools,re forging,tempering,and re forming them as needed in those days. Grinling Gibbons did the same,making special carving tools as needed on the spot,as I also do.

[Pam Niedermayer]

This reminds me of one of my favorite quotations:
"Those who are enamored of practice without theory are like a pilot who goes into a ship without rudder or compass and never has any certainty where he is going. Practice should always be based upon a sound knowledge of theory." --Leonardo da Vinci

To be sure, advances in materials and processes can sometimes yield substantive benefits, but more often than not, it seems to me our ancestors had things pretty well figured out.

One of my favorite quotes is: Never take two compasses to sea, always take one or three - Columbus

One of the problems in copying old tools, furniture, designs, etc., is that often there are little tricks that we don't see as important but are vital to the proper working of said tool. So the tools to copy may hang around long after the documentation is lost. I don't see this changing any time soon, even, maybe especially, given the internet. George has already done the experimentation and most likely has a great eye for detail; so we can forego that documentation for some tools. I'm real thankful for his presence here and wonder what we did to deserve it.

Pam

[Marv Werner]

George,

You said.....
Marv's "let it all hang out" philosophy is not valid.

Not valid? That of course is your opinion, not fact.

Did I say "let it all hang out"? I think I said, something about thinking outside the proverbial box. Thinking outside the box is not "letting it all hang out". It can very well include well thought out designs. Perhaps Stewie did in fact think through his design before he made the tote. How would you know whether he did or didn't? If he feels an urge to go extreme with his designs, who are we to judge?

I could go on, but from experience, to expound on certain remarks made here in SMC only invites the thread to be closed.

[george wilson]

No,Marv,I am in a position to have a valid opinion. It has been my life's work making and designing tools. That is the fact,and I am not being egotistical to say that. It's just true.
I have been a professional in a leading museum for many years.

Stewie did ask for criticism either way,and I offered some guidance. His design did have thin cross grain members whether he thought it through extensively or not. I did praise his draftsmanship. He did draw it with good curves. You said he should keep making 'far out designs",that's sort of saying let it all hang out. Now,if a person wants to doodle around in his shop and make bird houses because it makes him feel good,that's fine. But,if he really would like to make progress as a craftsman and designer,that's something else. A service I can offer before I croak is to help others make some progress. I am qualified to judge. I might know nothing about a myriad of things,but this has been my work,and I am good at it. That is the fact. I have taught in a leading art school,in evening classes in college,and in woodworking forums.

No one has to avail themselves of my help if they don't want it. Stewie has said he will take into account the advice I have given to him. Sorry if this has aggravated you.

With all the work I have posted,if you cannot see that I am qualified to have a valid opinion,what can I say to you? Are you also going to discount Leonardo's advice ?

[Joel Goodman]

One of my favorite quotes is: Never take two compasses to sea, always take one or three - Columbus


Pam

Pam -- I love that quote -- do you have a source for it?

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam -- I love that quote -- do you have a source for it?

Nah. :) I haven't read all his journals and logs, will leave that to someone else. I suspect that he never said exactly that.

Pam

[Johnny Kleso]

I did not want to comment but I want to add my two cents..
When it comes to handles I am pretty much an old stick in the mud..
I don't know why but I love the shapes of old tools..
Steve Knight has gone the new handle design route and mmany folks have tryed to tell him they too like the old designs..
There are lots of old hand saw designs and that is what I like..

Just call me Johnny OSM (Old Stick in the Mud)

[george wilson]

Understand that I am not saying that old designs are the only good ones. I am saying that design has to be learned and changes developed on the experience of having a large base of knowledge to draw from. Exactly the same thing that Leonardo said quoted a few posts above. Design changes should be incremental so that they can be proven correct and useful through experience with them. This has always been the history of all evolution,including that of tools. Just doing something "far out" may lead to failures. You do not see it practiced in engineering,medicine,or any number of fields.

[Marv Werner]

Rarebear,

Here's a few handles that are old and might even have come from the mud :D

Now THIS is what I call innovation! :)

178965178966178967

[george wilson]

Hillbilly tool makers don't count.:) Nor do ape men surviving in the wilderness on a box of junk parts.

[Marv Werner]

It requires great dedication and determination to produce a handle like those. The people who made those handles obviously never enjoyed the opportunity to ever have been in that proverbial box to step out of.

Here's a picture of one of the best handle repairs I've ever seen. I found it on eBay and was so impressed I just had to buy it. For some reason, I was the only bidder. I got it for less than a song, plus shipping of course. :D

178969

And here's one almost as good.. Ya have to admit, something can be learned from these designs. Maybe, what not to do?
178970

[george wilson]

I wonder why they would have put that big hollow area in front of the iron handle ? It made it necessary to cut away every saw blade fitted to it,which was just more work and time for the manufacturer,when the gap wasn't needed to clear the fingers.

[David Weaver]

I would have to guess that someone thought they needed a place to put their thumb on their second hand so they could brute the saw through a rip.

I guess casting a tote is one way to get around the work it takes to make a nice one and the trouble it is to find the right wood for one.

I still haven't found more QS apple!!

[george wilson]

They made dock saws with cast iron handles. Ugly as the North end of a South bound mule.

I think some of the above saws were dug up from the muck at the bottom of the cee-ment pond.

[Jim Koepke]

Rarebear,

Here's a few handles that are old and might even have come from the mud :D

Now THIS is what I call innovation! :)



Just goes to show that old does not mean it is good.

None of those handles looks to be comfortable.

They do not even look to be capable of the basic function I would want in a saw handle.

The first looks like it has a split that would pinch the user's fingers.

The second looks like it couldn't be gripped well enough to saw a line straight or plumb.

The third looks like it is too small and that the blade is not seated in the handle well enough to keep it from flopping about.

For myself, the information supplied here by others has given me a lot of food for thought when it comes my time to make my first saw handle.

After making a lot of handles for chisels, I am starting to learn some of the basics for my own preferences. Hopefully I will not have to make as many saw handles to learn these things thanks to the advice from people like George who have more experience in the art than I will be able to acquire.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Here's a picture of one of the best handle repairs I've ever seen. I found it on eBay and was so impressed I just had to buy it. For some reason, I was the only bidder. I got it for less than a song, plus shipping of course.

I would have to say that is possibly one of the worst repairs. For me, some of my best repairs are the ones that even I have trouble telling if I repaired it or not.

Why in my opinion is that repair so bad? It likely prevents anyone from coming along later and replacing the handle with a new one. It seems to show the person who did the repair didn't think a lot about the saw as a tool that deserved good care.

It is kind of like tying knots. In most cases, a good knot is one that will not come apart in use, yet can be untied without having to damage the rope.

Of course, the fool who understands nothing about knots will think the best knot is one that can not be untied.

Often those who know little think they know the most. Those who do know are the ones most often open to knew information. When they explain why what some think is new was discarded centuries ago, those who do not know history seem to hold on even more fondly to their "not so new" ideas.

Stewie made a saw handle and then said:


Please feel free to add your opinions on the new handle design. Positive or negative.

An experienced person gave advice about some points that will likely help any of us who want to build a saw handle in the future.

So why should someone get all over him about this?

I have worked with people who love to argue about everything. I prefer to avoid any discussion with them.

I think Stewie's handle is kind of cute. It reminds me of a cartoon Texas long horn looking around a corner. I doubt if I will try to make a saw handle like that. I am more apt to make one a bit more traditional with a few of my own innovations.

jtk

[bob blakeborough]

That is a really pretty handle!

[Marv Werner]

I can't believe you took those pictures seriously. I can't believe anyone would take them seriously.

I've been told by a number of ex-members of SMC that this place isn't a very friendly place. I'm beginning to see why.

[Jim Koepke]

I can't believe you took those pictures seriously. I can't believe anyone would take them seriously.

I've been told by a number of ex-members of SMC that this place isn't a very friendly place. I'm beginning to see why.

Maybe it is my mistake for taking people at their word. I did not have any reason to think you were being dishonest or just yanking my chain.

I could see in a last ditch situation some of those were decent down and dirty fast fixes. I try not to get myself into such situations.

Hopefully I was not offensive in my response. If however you felt offended, please accept my apology.

I also have communicated with some ex-members who felt this place was not friendly because it would not allow them to express themselves with language that was either offensive to some or belittling of others. Some people just do not want to play nice with others and then they want to blame the others for not welcoming them to the party.

Sometimes I like to talk politics, SMC does not allow such discussions and it is easy to understand why. Maybe some see that as being unfriendly or stifling of free speech. Others likely see it as trying to keep a certain level of civility.

jtk

[george wilson]

What I think is serious about those handles,is that you would even pay shipping for that one you got on Ebay,Marv.:)

[Ray Gardiner]

Interesting discussion, tradition versus innovation. I doubt we will ever reach a meaningful consensus anytime soon.

The point that has been somewhat missed, is what Stewie was trying to achieve was his own unique style and he has definitely achieved that with this handle design, (and for that matter the handle that preceeded it) beautiful craftsmanship and attention to detail. Whether it's practical and robust enough, probably not, time and usage will tell the tale, but I give the design full marks for style and execution.

My own view is we need both approaches, traditional, and innovative, understand the traditional designs, how and why they evolved the way they did, and never stop innovating, but filter all innovations with practical experience.

That's how those traditional designs came to exist in the first place.

Regards
Ray

[Leigh Betsch]

I only hope that some day I make something worthy of criticism by some of you!;)

[Jim Koepke]

Interesting discussion, tradition versus innovation. I doubt we will ever reach a meaningful consensus anytime soon.

Ray,

I think that is a very astute observation.

The problem may be that some will stay with the tried and true methods as if driven by faith without question.

Some will want to explore alternatives with total abandon to what has gone before.

There is a simple aspect that is forgotten often by both sides, "why?".

When one is armed with the knowledge of why things have been done in a certain way and why some other ways are not used, then one can innovate and avoid failures.

Stewie may have his saw handle last for a long time and give him many years of pride in his workmanship.

However, if it does give way at a weak spot, he will know from the feedback in this thread how to make a handle similar to this one with a bit more strength that will likely survive for many more years.

Not knowing Stewie, I can not say much about what he is trying to achieve, but if he wants to make fine artistic handles or whimsical saw handles for himself or to sale, he has a likelihood of finding success and maybe a lucrative niche market.

Traditions are a warm and fuzzy comfort to a craftsman. They are peaceful to the mind.

Innovations are the wings of an artist. They stir and pound in the heart.

Wings if not well anchored can spin out of control and fall.

jtk

[Marv Werner]

George,

Your comment about wondering why I would even pay the shipping for such a saw, implies to me that you think I'm stupid. I take exception to such a remark.

I posted it as kind of a joke, but it really isn't a joke at all. I apologize for going off topic, sorry Stewie.

I'm going to take the time here to attempt an explanation as to why I was motivated to buy the saw in such horrible condition.

When I saw it on eBay, it was one of the most sloppy repairs I've ever seen. At least I thought that before I gave it a little more thought. Then I started thinking about why it was repaired as it was, or why it was repaired at all.

There is no doubt an endless number of scenarios we can imagine.

First, how did the handle get broken to the extent that it is in the first place? Whoever repaired the handle had to have been in a desperate situation and really needed a saw and didn't have any other means to repair it so it could be used. It's a very old saw. At the time of the so-called repair, the only way to cut a board was with a handsaw. I look at that repair and see some very interesting and intriguing "out-side-the-box" innovation. I see something that represents a great need for sawing wood. Someone was without what we might think of as a normal method to repair such a handle and came up with the only way available to him. He did in fact accomplish his goal and ended up with a usable saw.

I am proud to own it. It reside among my other respected old saws. You, George, may see it as junk, not worthy of the shipping cost. I see it as a symbol of an interesting history that I can only imagine. I have refurbished hundreds of old saws, but I wouldn't change that saw in any way. I can conjure up more respect for that saw and what I imagine it represents than I can for any present day saw that is produced using present day technology.

Just a different and "valid" perspective. :)

[Marv Werner]

Jim,

Perhaps I misunderstood your post. Sorry for my snarky response

[george wilson]

Marv,I put up a :) so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all. I certainly understood you were posting those handles as a joke. Well,after reading your last few posts,first you told Jim they were a joke,now you said it wasn't a joke. Now I don't know what you think about them.

Ray,you have stated what my sentiments are exactly. A firm background in classical design is needed before one goes experimenting. Too often this is lacking even in commercial industrial designers these days. This has lead to some of the terrible designs seen in some modern products and tools we see today.

[David Weaver]

>>Marv,I put up a :) so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all.<<

We can call this the asperger's awareness hand tool users board....no jokes!!!

[george wilson]

Yes,but in one post he says they weren't to be taken seriously. In the next he says they ARE to be taken seriously,and he values them very much. And,the one with the bent flat metal repair he values more than any saw made with modern technology. What am I supposed to believe?????:):):)

I guess you,Marv,value the old,repaired saw more than those I've made too. I did use some modern tech,like sawing out the handles with a bandsaw,and punching the teeth with a tooth punching machine. Is that true? Actually, that would also have to include Wenzloff,LN,LV,and all the other high class makers too. They all use modern technology in making their saws.

[Don C Peterson]

Can't we all just get along???

Seriously though, I think it's critically important to understand why things were done a certain way in the first place before attempting to "innovate."

I see this all the time in my line of work; after a cursory glance at a system, someone (usually with very limited experience) will make a recommendation to "fix" things. What normally happens, thankfully, is that the suggestion is noted and rejected, but sometimes it's actually acted on which means that all the lessons that went into the original design are relearned with a healthy side order of pain.

After years of seeing this phenomenon I came up with a saying of my own: It's true that there is almost always more than one right way to do something, but the number of wrong ways is nearly infinite.

Why anyone would choose to disregard the hard earned lessons of our ancestors is beyond me...

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the old ways are always best, but unless you are familiar with how things are done and WHY, how do you judge whether a change is actually an improvement?

[Don C Peterson]

>>Marv,I put up a :) so you would see that I am joking also. Maybe all of us should stop joking if it's going to be misunderstood,smilies and all.<<

We can call this the asperger's awareness hand tool users board....no jokes!!!

As a parent of a child with asperger's, I'm NOT offended! LOL

[george wilson]

Well,it should have been clear that I was joking,and initially Marv said the saws weren't to be taken seriously. I thought I WAS getting along. Now,I'm just confused.

[Karl Andersson]

Stewie, trying to get back on topic (if you're still reading your thread), I am working up a backsaw handle design too and found this good website with a progression of Disston backsaw handle designs: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pBaker/datingDisston/datDisston-01.asp

Number 13 is very similar to yours in shape - if you sanded off the Disston's forward "horn". The big difference in design, as George points out, is the length of cross-grain in the Disston vs yours - you can see how the Disston design tilts the grain more tangent to the saw blade and also lowers the top arch of the grip so it has a continuous piece of straight grain from the cheek to the handle, although that area is pretty small in cross-section.

It is also very interesting to see where failures occurred in these very old saws - a number of the examples have cracked in the small lower "lamb's tongue" strap where there are very short cross-grain sections. They also occur where there is an excentric change in the curve, from a tight radius to a more open one, seemingly concentrating the flex there. Your design is more flowing (organic?) so maybe it will survive better.

Thanks for sharing your work,
Karl

[Marv Werner]

George,

I'm going to try to take the high ground here and not escalate this part of this thread to a point where the mod will be tempted to lock this thread. That would be inconsiderate of Stewie, the OP.

These kind of discussions, if we can all it that, accomplish little or nothing. I'm going to respectfully say this, then I'm done with this part of the thread. What set me off in the first place was when you said my "hang-it-all-out philosophy was invalid". In fact, I used a well used phrase about stepping outside the proverbial box, when I referred to Stewie's handle design. Then when I responded to you with what I really meant when I referred to "stepping outside the proverbial box", you ignored that explanation and continued to reiterate your misinterpretation of what I said.

A lot of people here in this forum obviously hold you in high regard and have great respect for your accomplishments and skill level. Your social skills, on the other hand, in my opinion, are lacking.

On occasion during the short time I have been posting in this forum, I have attempted to give you compliments on various things you have done. You don't seem to respond to compliments. Is it because you don't feel that we, or more specifically, I, am capable of recognizing when someone like yourself has accomplished something of significance? I find it disrespectful when a compliment is not acknowledged. To me, in general terms, it lowers the credibility of the one being complimented.

I suspect, once I post this, I'll be slammed by many of the posters in this thread for expressing my thoughts and opinions. That's ok, it's expected. And because I expressed my thoughts, this thread will more than likely be locked. Should that happen, my apologies to Stewie.

My apologies to those who find what I have written here to be out of order. In the future, I will make every attempt to only contribute to specific questions relating to the original post.

[David Weaver]

As a parent of a child with asperger's, I'm NOT offended! LOL

I know that I'm going to get someone offended with that, definitely not my intention, thanks for not huffing through the forum and making me lose my sense of humor. I really like to have fun at the expense of *people who can help it* and never at the expense of people *who can't*, but sometimes that is difficult to do.

For 8 years at a prior employer, one of my project worker bees was high-functional autistic guy, so I learned first hand how many different ways someone will take something differently than you intended (in a very literal black and white way, and usually much worse than what you meant), and that jokes and mild sarcasm, no matter how much you explain them, are just better avoided.

Thus, the comment about avoiding jokes, meant to disparage us for our lack of humor sometimes because we *can* help it, and not folks who can't.

[David Weaver]

I suspect, once I post this, I'll be slammed by many of the posters in this thread for expressing my thoughts and opinions. That's ok, it's expected. And because I expressed my thoughts, this thread will more than likely be locked. Should that happen, my apologies to Stewie.


I don't think you have to worry about slamming, this forum is much much less of a clique and fraternity atmosphere than the forum with green at the top.

If you're worried about getting the thread locked, a much better option would be to send george a PM with your thoughts so the rest of us aren't subjected to a locked thread. There's no need to show the post publicly to see whether or not there is consensus. I would much rather have the thread unlocked than know others' disagreements.

[David Weaver]

Stewie, trying to get back on topic (if you're still reading your thread), I am working up a backsaw handle design too and found this good website with a progression of Disston backsaw handle designs: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pBaker/datingDisston/datDisston-01.asp


Wow...thanks for that. #8, 10 and 11 are great handles, even if the notches in the top of 8 are sunken a bit far for visual standards, and it could be a little "overcooked" in terms of notches in general.

Still they did wonderful handles before it went to folks running them through machine moulders and sanders.

[george wilson]

Well,Marv,though I MUST BE a stupid person,as you say (your opinion MUST be valid),I guess I'll just have to keep muddling along somehow. (How do you "Take the high ground" and tell someone he's socially lacking?") My greatest sense of loss is that now I can never look forward to getting you to teach me how to carve anemic,dust bowl looking wheat on a saw. I shall never achieve what you have in craftsmanship or imagination.

As a person who spent his career in a museum,I'll say there is such a thing as folk art, and there is stuff that is not. Yourn haint.

If I'm ever looking through old chicken houses,or in a rotting rain barrel full of water and see old saws,I'll let you know about them asap!!:)

I could say "CATCHYALATER",but that went out about 1910. The use of the phrase itself says volumes of the user.

[Jim Koepke]

Stewie, trying to get back on topic (if you're still reading your thread), I am working up a backsaw handle design too and found this good website with a progression of Disston backsaw handle designs: http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/pBaker/datingDisston/datDisston-01.asp

Number 13 is very similar to yours in shape - if you sanded off the Disston's forward "horn". The big difference in design, as George points out, is the length of cross-grain in the Disston vs yours - you can see how the Disston design tilts the grain more tangent to the saw blade and also lowers the top arch of the grip so it has a continuous piece of straight grain from the cheek to the handle, although that area is pretty small in cross-section.

It is also very interesting to see where failures occurred in these very old saws - a number of the examples have cracked in the small lower "lamb's tongue" strap where there are very short cross-grain sections. They also occur where there is an excentric change in the curve, from a tight radius to a more open one, seemingly concentrating the flex there. Your design is more flowing (organic?) so maybe it will survive better.

Thanks for sharing your work,
Karl

That is a great article. I have seen it before, but each time I have looked I seem to see a bit more.

My curiosity has me wondering if the cracks in the handles occurred during use or if they could have been caused by the expansion of the wood being dissimilar in different parts of the wood causing uneven stresses.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Given where they appear to be broken, my guess is most of them would be due to use, or bumping the saws into things / dropping them.

I'm inferring from the article that the guy owns all of those saws (I read through the front part quickly to get to the pictures, maybe he said it more literally than that). I'm jealous!!

[Jim Koepke]

Given where they appear to be broken, my guess is most of them would be due to use, or bumping the saws into things / dropping them.

I'm inferring from the article that the guy owns all of those saws (I read through the front part quickly to get to the pictures, maybe he said it more literally than that). I'm jealous!!

The stresses during use could be the downfall of thin features.

A collector enjoys hunting for and looking at their accumulation. Us users get the benefit of being able to not only enjoy the saws while using them, we get to enjoy what was made with them.

(Yeah, I am also a bit jealous.)

jtk

[Joseph D'Orazio]

That handle is very pleasing to look at. Nice job. Would you do anything different now that you've done it twice?

[john brenton]

My greatest sense of loss is that now I can never look forward to getting you to teach me how to carve anemic,dust bowl looking wheat on a saw. I shall never achieve what you have in craftsmanship or imagination.


Dayyyyyyyyyyyyum!!! Those are some serious snaps George...damn. When you get your digs in you get them in deep. Please Lord don't let me ever offend George.

[george wilson]

Sorry if I got a bit miffed,John. Would you like to be told that you lack social skills? I didn't think it was necessary either. I had thought that we were sharing some humor about the old saws,and it turned ugly. I assume you read all the posts,and have seen the lack of logic aimed against me,by someone who is jealous.

[john brenton]

Hey George, as I've said before, I've been permanently banned from at least two forums for getting into with people, so I'm certainly not sitting in the judgment seat here and there is certainly no need to apologize to me or anyone else. You're two grown men and can argue any way you like.

I just thought your digs were hilarious. Cold blooded and mean...but hilarious. Not because they were directed at Marv, but just because they were like fiery darts aimed at his very soul.


Sorry if I got a bit miffed,John. Would you like to be told that you lack social skills? I didn't think it was necessary either. I had thought that we were sharing some humor about the old saws,and it turned ugly. I assume you read all the posts,and have seen the lack of logic aimed against me,by someone who is jealous.

[john brenton]

The first time I heard of that condition I honestly thought it was ass-burgers. I thought...damn, poor kids have a problem and on top of that they call the problem ass-burgers.

[george wilson]

Now that I can half see again,what really miffed me was that Marv insisted to Jim that his saw picture was meant as a joke. Then,a post or 2 later,his saw became his cherished posession,valued "more than any saw made with modern technology." Then,he was angry that I(thinking were both joking) had thought him stupid for paying postage in it. I didn't think I was doing that. I was joking,and he well knew that.

He was just fishing for a reason to get angry and shoot me down. This total fabrication did make me pretty fed up. Marv has been trying to become the saw guru since his first few posts. He has felt as if I am a threat to this goal. This is what is behind the whole faked up deal from him.

I do not fancy myself as the saw guru. I had to make saws as toolmaker,and have made many of them,and resharpened most of them many times. I never did a lot of research on saws,relying on Jay Gaynor to furnish me with research,and accurate drawings. My problem in all this toolmaking was mostly figuring out how to make tools,sometimes in good numbers, as soon as possible,and as accurately as possible. That is what I was good at. I leave it to Mike Wenzloff and some others to be the saw gurus.

I have mostly been interested in guitar making since 13,and that is where my research interests have been. I also became involved in toolmaking,more than previously,when I needed 18th.C. style tools to open my shop in Wmsbg. in 1970. Before that,I did make some tools because I couldn't afford them,sometimes.

Having sharpened saws,as Marv has,does not make it to being the saw guru that he wants to be. Sorry,that's the truth.

I answered Stewie's request for criticism in a helpful and truthful manner,without shooting down his effort. I even complimented his good drawing of curves. Right away I get jumped on for offering advice when it was asked for. Yes,when I offer advice,I want it to be taken into consideration,not just with a rather curt sounding denial that the design is strong enough. That wasn't going to help Stewie make good progress,and I am certainly able to give good advice on tools that I have already made my own mistakes on decades ago as a young,and VERY EXPERIMENTAL man.

I get accused,and continue to be accused, of not wanting to "think outside of the box." Marv has no idea how often I HAVE thought that way,but I know what doesn't work out by now.

I have gotten harsh with him,but Marv asked for it. If the moderator wants to delete some of my posts,I understand it,but I did not ask for this ridiculous fabrication of Marv's.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... He was just fishing for a reason to get angry and shoot me down. This total fabrication did make me pretty fed up. Marv has been trying to become the saw guru since his first few posts. He has felt as if I am a threat to this goal. This is what is behind the whole faked up deal from him. ...

Trying to attribute motivation, particularly when said attribution is so self-centered, is never a good way to live. I felt like I was in a school yard watching a bully. I know that you must still feel hurt from Williamsburg's treatment and eager to prove yourself; but it's just not necessary. We all acknowledge your expertise and like having you around.

Geesh, I wish we could get more of the unbridled testosterone coursing around the world under some kind of control. Maybe it would be a good idea to watch the National Geo program on stress and pay careful attention to the baboon troop that reformed, near the end?

Pam

[harry strasil]

I hope I am not sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong. But most of my life in the repair business I have been accused of "Thinking outside the Box", sometimes a long ways outside. But the thing that I remember most and always tried to live upto was a statement from a 92 year old Blacksmith who every smith I know looked up to and that statement was. "Most times it is not what you can do to fix something, but what you know will not work, that decides how you go about a job!" Frank Straka

[Joseph D'Orazio]

That handle is very pleasing to look at. Nice job. Would you do anything different now that you've done it twice?
I see that I've entered into an arguement and that I am not going to find out iffin you would do anything different now that you built it twice. I hope yall get it sorted out.

I will say it again, thats a good looking saw handle. Good job.

[Marv Werner]

A much better option would be to send george a PM with your thoughts so the rest of us aren't subjected to a locked thread. There's no need to show the post publicly to see whether or not there is consensus. I would much rather have the thread unlocked than know others' disagreements.

Thanks for the advice. I suggest you offer the same to Sir. George. Or is the advice only for we newbies? His last post regarding me is pathetic.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I am locking this thread since it has degenerated into a "who said what and what is so and so's motive". This is not useful discussion on the topic of hand tools, technique, or any other topic germaine to the Neanderthal Forum. I will give my usual warning that careful wording of posts is necessary in our situation where we are not able to look into the other person's eyes, view their body language, or in a split second ask for a clarification. This bickering and clash of egos does not reflect well on anyone involved. I am very disappointed in this behavior.

Rather than deep six this thread, I'm going to leave it here for future public viewing so all future readers can see how not to act. I hope that those involved come back to view this thread in 6 months and are appropriately embarassed at what they see.