Reflection on Candid Criticism

[Nate Davey]

I'm a fairly new turner. I've had a lathe for about 2 years but, due to work, have only actually been turning about a year. I went back and looked at the first bowl I made shown here.
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This is a cedar bowl about 4" in diameter and 2" tall. I turned it on a Turncrafter Pro VS and my only tool at the time was a Skewchigouge. As you can see, I left a lot of tool marks and did a horrible job sanding. I posted this on a couple forums, not SMC, and asked for "Candid Criticism". All but one poster gave me the "beautiful bowl...great job" etc. One poster told me what was actually wrong with it and, more importantly, how to fix it. It was done candidly but not in a "hurtful" way. I am truly grateful to that poster.

Here is how it ended up. Still not a work of art, but head and shoulder better than what it was.
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So, thanks to all of you who take the time to give good candid feedback to us new turners. It may seems tough to criticize peoples work, but it pays dividends if taken in the appropriate way.

[Jason Silva]

Great point! We wont grow as turners if every piece we make is "great". If a turner askes for critiques, they should recieve honest critiques. I have learned as much from critiques as i have from instruction.

[David E Keller]

beautiful bowl... great job

Couldn't resist!;):D

Your point about criticism is a good one.

[David DeCristoforo]

You are correct about getting honest critiques from the people on this forum. It's very hard to objectively see our own work. We tend to either think it stinks or that it's the greatest thing since toast. It's always nice to get "real" feed back and not just "strokes" that may or may not be genuine.

PS I was going to "crack wise" but the doc beat me to it!

[Fred Perreault]

You did good, and I'll bet that you will do even better. It would make me laugh, what my resuts were a few years ago, when I thought that I knew it all. I was definitely wrong then.... but now I know everything. :) :) :)

[Steve Schlumpf]

Nate - just my opinion - but part of the process of giving a good critique is knowing a little about the capabilities of the turner who is requesting it. When first starting out in turning, most of the problem areas are obvious to those folks with experience, but the one thing that is crucial to you becoming a better turner is lathe time - and we know that. So - if someone pats you on the back and says 'Good Job - looking forward to seeing the next one' you are getting credit for going through the growing pains of becoming a turner. Most times you will get small bits of advice - such as - next time try to turn the form - from the rim to the foot - in one smooth flowing curve. We do know that the more turning you do - the better you will become.

All to often folks are disappointed that they are not getting real critiques - to a large part that may be true - but the other side of that is with a new turner the skills actually built come in stages. Makes no sense for me to critique a bowl and say that the foot is to large for the size of the bowl - if the turner was thrilled because it was the first time they managed to reverse turn a bowl! Take things in stages... you can push for more honesty in critiques but sometimes you really need the experience in order to take advantage of what insight has being offered.

For those folks seeking a serious critique - check out the thread in the Master Sticky (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?56171-Critique-Documents-Sticky) that covers how best to approach a critique. Remember that everything is based on the info you as the turner provide - and multiple photos of various angles of the turning in question is a must!

As mentioned - just my opinion - but the help and assist is available.

[Jim Burr]

Nice thing about this place Nate...ya get what you cask for in a way that makes you grow

[Dan Hintz]

Nate,

I turned my first greenie a scant two weeks ago... before then, I had only dreamed of what I could do with lathe tools in my hand. I had Tony de Masi hovering over my shoulder, and Mike Cruz standing by the tailstock with a camera... no pressure, right? Part way into the turning session, after both had gotten in a number of comments/criticisms, Mike asked if I minded the extra opinion. Not in the least! It's no fun to hear someone tell you you're wrong, but it it's the pits to do it wrong and have no one tell you... bad habits are hard to break, so break them as early as possible.

[Tim Thiebaut]

I just wanted to say this, as a brand new turner I have truely appreciated the input and encouragement that I have received from EVERYONE here, not one person as knocked me...unusual for a forum, and thank you all for that to by the way, being new to turning I know a lot of my problems right off the bat its pretty obvious to me. But the encouragement and easy input on little things I could try next time from these people has given me an extra drive to do even better next time...I have many things I havnt even bothered to post because it is just not worthy of any of you all seeing. When I have a serious piece that I want critqued I will say so in my posting, but for now, your encouragement helps motivate me , thank you all, Tim

[Scott T Smith]

Nate, great post and topic - you are right on. This also gives me a chance to say "thank you" in public for the turning advice that you and Rob gave me last Sunday. I really appreciate the time that y'all took to share advice re techniques and tooling. I hope that Rob shared some of that spalted maple with you; if not stop by the next time that you're up this way and I'll fix you up with some.

Regards,

Scott

[Nate Davey]

Steve, great points and advice as always. Knowing where a turner is, is probably as important when critiquing so as not to discourage.

Dan, I think you summed up my point better than I did.

Scott, was great meeting you and seeing your stadium/workshop. Guess we should have got a "Creekers Visit" photo. Glad I could pass on some of what was passed to me.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Nate,

It takes both honest criticism and a lot of encouragement to cause beginning turners to want to improve their craft/art.

If you go to the top of this forum you will see a sticky thread about giving criticism. Chris Hartley wrote it and I made a sticky out of it.

While honest criticism is important, the method used to give it is important too. A new turner cruelly criticized could lose the drive to improve or even turn.

But yes.....properly applied criticism and encouragement are important to beginning turners.

[Michael James]

I tend to think along the lines of Steve's comments. I have had lots of opportunity to learn and to teach, and to me the emotional state is the most important. So an Atta boy is appropriate for just having the courage to post it knowing there is often a huge discrpency between what you see seasoned artists post and what you (me) as a beginner can do today. As Tim stated the encouragemt is trememdous, and profoundly motivating. I do this for fun and really enjoy creating things, just expressing myself in lots of different ways. The ability to get to a perceived outcome quickly appeals to me. The beauty of the revealed and polished wood awes me. I am learning and am investing in getting better. I appreciate everyone who bothers with an honest critique or the encouragement, and I especially appreciate the handful of friendships I have made here. Thank you all - I'll be back!

[Lee Koepke]

So far my experiences here have been beneficial.
I have gotten criticisms and encouragement ... most of all, I see the criticism and encouragement of others, and take THAT with me to the shop. I think about my curves, where I start, where I finish. The size of the foot, or no foot.

I feel I am my own worst critic, and it helps me to hear that others see some good in what I do. So thanks !

[Fred Perreault]

I think that Steve Schlumpf's reply is a classic item. Beginner turners usually aspire to the quality and complexity of the results of the more experienced turners. And all experienced turners have been there and done that. I am always amazed by the apparent lack of limits some of the turners at the Creek exhibit.

[Steve LaFara]

Great post and glad to see you're benifiting from the experience here. I've yet to post a picture of anything worth crtiquing but will some day and look forward to advise from those more advanced than myself.

I think part of the problem is that our society now thinks it's best to give every kid a "Great job", pat on the back and a trophy regardless of where they finish in the game. No more winners and losers which is not the way life is. They will all grow up expecting that trophy regardless of performance and they will be in for a rude awakening.

I for one want to know when I suck at something and welcome the criticism. :D

[Michelle Rich]

There is a heck of a difference between criticism and help & assistance. There is also a difference when one knows less than the turner he or she is "criticizing" Much is opinion, not knowlege. Too many are influenced by pretty wood, and have no real knowlege of art/flowing lines/great shapes/ being trendy & ignoring good shape from "test of time" vessels or furniture, etc. When I receive assistance on my turnings from folks who I have seen from their work, may be my equal or better than I, am happy they have written & tried to help. I take their comments seriously. I sincerely appreciate when folks say they love my piece, or it caught their eye. GREAT. But folks who are not as talented, should educate themselves BEFORE they criticize. They need to post their turnings and get schooled and learn. Then their criticism will hold water & be worth it to the receiver.
My .02 cents worth & it's an OPINION! SMC is pretty good in this regard, vs. many sites. It is much more helpful and supportive than many. I hope it stays this way & the temptation to jump on everyone's posts does not take hold as it does elsewhere. I am appreciative of all the comments to my art and I hope I have alsways been respectful of yours. I try to show you the respect I wish to receive.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree that this forum is one that is the most helpful to all. Comments and critiques are to helpful and to encourage the turner. I think as has been said a lot of us think our turnings are not worth posting. We tend to be our own worst critic. So I think that a atta boy is helpful and encouragement for someone to go to the next piece. Nate great post. By the way the bowl does look good.

[Don Alexander]

as a new turner i have to say that i have found value in pretty much all the comments i have received when i have posted pics of what i have made
from the most simplistic to the most complex, all of them have value just in different ways

the most common "problem" i see here is the tendency of a fair number of folks to think that somehow their opinion "doesn't measure up" to a perceived standard and that is certainly understandable given the level of experience, skill and just plain natural ability exhibited everday on this site , however take a minute to consider that the vast majority of the people who are going to see any of our work have little to no knowledge of turning (artistic or utilitarian) and the only thing that matters to them is do they like it, very few think about it beyond that point. so what am i saying? ALL comments regarding my work have value in some way ; some because i can learn how to improve from some very experienced and talented people who are willing to share lessons they have learned ,often the hard way; some because i can learn how the piece i have done appeals to others (put 100 random people in room and you likely will get about 100 different opinions); and some just encourage me to keep on trying (that has differing levels of value based on how the person posting the work views their own work)

thanks to ALL of you who take the time to post comments when i post pics of my work , and for those who are reluctant to comment please know that regardless of where you perceive your level of expertise to be your comments are valuable in some way to alot of us as are pictures of your work and the resulting comments about it

[Frank Van Atta]

Here's something to think about: IMO, if you think you can only learn from someone who you perceive to be more experienced or talented than yourself, then you are going to miss a lot of learning opportunities. Even the greenest novice has something to offer, even if it is nothing more than questioning things and methods that you would never think of questioning yourself. Everyone approaches this craft from a different angle, and seeing things from another's perspective (regardless of how long or how well they have been doing this) will often provide fresh insight or - at the very least - strengthen your own beliefs.

I never met a turner I couldn't learn from.

[George Guadiane]

I think your post is important, on a number of levels:
Honest critique is hard to come by - even more difficult to come by if one has been turning for any length of time.
Honest critique is invaluable to those who want it (we probably all need it from time to time).
Honest critique should be asked for.
Honest critique should be given, by whomever has something constructive to say.
Honest critique, once asked for, should be accepted in the spirit it was given.

I have gotten better as a turner (and probably as a human) by listening to what people say. I have missed OBVIOUS bumps and flat spots in my work, that when pointed out, helped me get to the next level of quality and gave me a better, more honest "critical eye" when looking at my work. Being unnecessarily hard on one's self is no better than thinking that everything one does is "flawless" (unless it really is - and it happens... OK, not to me, at least not very often).

I am always reluctant to "strike the first blow" on a piece that I think could be improved, especially when I have not seen the turner's work criticized before - I'm just not sure how observations might be taken, and I think it is fair to say that NONE OF US set out to be hurtful.

I'm glad that you asked for opinions/advice, whatever and I'm glad that you got input that gave you a higher level of satisfaction with this piece (which it should) and I hope that the help translated to the rest of your work going forward... I have been helped a great deal by putting my work out there and asking for feedback. Often, I wish I would hear more of what I'm missing than what I'm doing right... Although, I AM pretty good (LOL):eek::D:rolleyes:

[David DeCristoforo]

I have never felt as welcome as I felt when I "joined" this forum. In my experience, most creative types very jealously guard their methods and techniques. And they can be brutally harsh when offering "criticism". For the most part, the members of this forum are as gracious and willing to share as anyone can be. I mentioned at one point that one member in particular demonstrated all the qualities of a "self actualizer" as described by Maslow. The first and foremost of these is to be able to take pleasure in the success of others. There are many here who demonstrate that quality. Believe me when I say that it is a rare thing to find in an individual and even more rate to find in a group.

I try to avoid offering meaningless platitudes. While I have not been involved in turning long enough to qualify as an "expert", I do know what I like and I have a pretty good sense of proportion, line and scale. So if someone asks for my opinion, I will offer it honestly. If they don't ask, I will respond only if I have some genuine positive input. Otherwise, I "take a pass".

As to my own postings, I am always interested in the honest opinions of others, especially those who have far more "time on task" than I do. I may agree with them, I may not. But I always welcome the input.

[Christopher K. Hartley]

Nate, thank you for putting yourself out there. I am so pleased that someone cared enough to encourage you by helping you get better at this craft. The guys are right on both sides of the fence in that it takes encouragement coupled with constructive critique. One without the other is a prescription for emotional hurt and a block to skill development. For these reasons a post was created that now resides on the Master Sticky link; it is... Critique Documents Sticky (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=56171) When properly followed it will eliminate the ditches on both sides of this issue, Sometimes an honest critique is difficult to give due to the nature of the photographs presented. If wanting a real critique follow the post noted and provide pictures that will help reveal the reality of the work and great benefits can be the result.:)
,

[Nate Davey]

Christopher,

After Steve pointed it out a went and read through it twice and a very well written, thought out document it is. It seems this is the template used by those who helped me out a year or so ago.

[Dan Hintz]

Here's something to think about: IMO, if you think you can only learn from someone who you perceive to be more experienced or talented than yourself, then you are going to miss a lot of learning opportunities. Even the greenest novice has something to offer, even if it is nothing more than questioning things and methods that you would never think of questioning yourself.
Excellent point, Frank, and I shouldn't have missed it in my post. Mike made a similar comment during our session at Tony's... he noticed a number of mistakes that he was doing during his time at the tool simply because he was able to get a fresh perspective (both literally by standing behind the lathe watching someone else, and figuratively by hearing the questions that I asked).

[Don Alexander]

this thread has been an excellent discussion thanks to the OP and all who have chimed in