Raised Fibres after staining.

[Gari Oke]

I have recently stained a Maple top for an electric guitar using a water based analine dye. I followed recommendations from the instructions, (as well as reading other posts suggesting water based dyes will raise the grain), to wet the wood, let it dry and then sand it down and then repeat. I then wet it down a third time and had little if any grain raise. I sanded this back and then went on to staining. After the top dried, I noticed that it feels quite rough (I am assuming raised fibres). How would I knock these down without removing any of the colour? I am planning on finnishing it with tru oil so I want it to be as smooth as posssible before I start that.

Thanks, Gari

[Howard Acheson]

Most inexperienced finishers do not perform the grain raising properly. They end up sanding the raised grain too much thereby making fresh wood that will again raise when water is applied. The sanding must be very light with a grit no more aggressive than 220. That said, the following is something a finisher friend put together and it's the way I deal with "raised grain".

Let's first understand what raised grain is; raised grain is created by sanding and to a lesser extent planning or scraping. As you smooth the wood with any of these operations you cut wood fibers such that they are free to flap about (they are not continuous). When you apply ANY liquid the loosened fibers absorb the liquid, swell, and protrude upward from the surface of the wood. When the liquid evaporates the fibers remain in their upright position. It is a bit (though not exactly) like your hair behaves when you get it cut short—it doesn't lay flat, but wants to stick up.

To a certain extent this problem (if it even is a problem) can be alleviated by pre-raising the grain. This is done by sanding to your final grit and then lightly wetting the surface with water to intentionally raise the grain. When the water evaporates you can then very lightly sand to remove the raised wood fibers. The theory is that once raised (and removed) the fibers won't raise again under finish. The problem is that the theory is correct; but, it is the execution that is flawed. It is true that the fibers that rose before won't rise again. But, when you cut them away with the light sanding you expose new fibers that were previously held in place by the ones you just removed. These will rise when you apply your finish.

In short, the whole issue of pre-raising the grain, and raised grain following the application of a water-soluble dye is a big so-what. It (pre-raising the grain) is a finishing step to be executed by folks with entirely too much time on their hands. Why? Simple! Here are a couple of clues. What happens to the raised grain when you apply your first coat of finish? Some folks like to refer to this coat as the "sealer" coat because it seals the grain. Many of us, when using oil-based finishes prefer to thin the first coat more than succeeding coats so that it will better penetrate the grain. Any thoughts yet..?

The first coat locks the raised fibers in place so that when you sand prior to applying the next coat of finish you remove them and level the surface. You didn't need to go to all the effort of either preventing them or removing them. They don't cause a problem (other than to those among us that believe the wood should be baby butt smooth at the end of all finishing steps). They are no more an issue than any of the other causes of roughness in your first finish coat.

For what little it may be worth, I sand to 180g or 220g, or scrape, depending on the wood; apply my dye, and then apply the finish. I never engage in pre-raising the grain and I emphatically emphasize that the color coat, however applied, should not be sanded. The bottom line, Don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the first step in your finishing schedule. The color coat requires only a visual inspection—did you get the color you wanted and is it consistent and evenly applied. How it feels is irrelevant. Get on with your topcoat making sure that it is properly thinned and applied so as to minimize air bubbles, dust, brush or wiping marks, etc. and let the finish level itself by attending to proper technique.

[Don Jarvie]

Interesting info..

My process is this. Sand to 220, vacuum and then wipe with naptha. The naptha (water would work too) will raise the grain a bit but it will also show any saw marks not removed, etc. Lightly sand with 320 to remove the raised grain.

1st coat of finish, sand with 320, second coat, sand with 400, third coat, sand with 600 if I'm doing a 4th of 0000 steel wool then paste wax.

When I sand between coats I am only looking to take off any bumps, etc, not sanding so hard so I would remove the finish. Rubbing the piece with your hand after the sanding will also let you feel any imperfections so you can remove them.

The few projects I have done with this method have been silky smooth.

[Bob Wingard]

I think your procedure is just fine .. the only thing I would change is your choice of materials.

Sanding is an abrasive process .. you're taking tiny rocks that are glued to a piece of paper and rubbing then across your surface. When you wet the wood, the grain raises, and when you sand it, SOME of them are removed, and SOME of them are simply pushed back to where they came from.

Steel wooling, on the other hand is a cutting/shearing process ... when it is passed over raised grain, it will cut off and remove most, if not all of it. It is far more efficient at this task than sandpaper. There is one word of CAUTION here ... steel wool, in it's manufacture, is coated with a thin oil to keep it from rusting. This oil must be washed from the pad before using it, or it WILL contaminate the surface. Not as big of a problem with solvent based finishes, but still a problem. The OTHER CAUTION is that you must be absolutely certain that you remove all of the little broken shards of steel wool when you are using a waterborne finish, as contact between to two spells disaster .. the shards will rust and leave UGLY black specks. There are synthetics available that alleviate this problem quite well. Either way, a GOOD cleaning of the surface will rid it of the debris, making it ready for finishing.

[Gari Oke]

Any thoughts yet..?

The first coat locks the raised fibers in place so that when you sand prior to applying the next coat of finish you remove them and level the surface. You didn't need to go to all the effort of either preventing them or removing them. They don't cause a problem (other than to those among us that believe the wood should be baby butt smooth at the end of all finishing steps). They are no more an issue than any of the other causes of roughness in your first finish coat.

For what little it may be worth, I sand to 180g or 220g, or scrape, depending on the wood; apply my dye, and then apply the finish. I never engage in pre-raising the grain and I emphatically emphasize that the color coat, however applied, should not be sanded. The bottom line, Don't spend a lot of time agonizing over the first step in your finishing schedule. The color coat requires only a visual inspection�did you get the color you wanted and is it consistent and evenly applied. How it feels is irrelevant. Get on with your topcoat making sure that it is properly thinned and applied so as to minimize air bubbles, dust, brush or wiping marks, etc. and let the finish level itself by attending to proper technique.

Thanks for your reply! Very interesting read. This is my first attempt at finnishing wood, so my thought process is somewhat limited! The thinning of the first finnishing coat does make sense. How would one go about thinning Truoil? For the neck of the guitar, I just applied itas per the directions on the bottle, and I am very pleased with the results. There was no thinning involved, but the maple was very smooth before I apllied it.

[Gari Oke]

[QUOTE=Bob Wingard;1609877]
Steel wooling, on the other hand is a cutting/shearing process ... when it is passed over raised grain, it will cut off and remove most, if not all of it. It is far more efficient at this task than sandpaper. There is one word of CAUTION here ... steel wool, in it's manufacture, is coated with a thin oil to keep it from rusting. This oil must be washed from the pad before using it, or it WILL contaminate the surface. Not as big of a problem with solvent based finishes, but still a problem. QUOTE]

I did not know about the thin oil coated on steel wool. How does one wash steel wool?

[Bob Wingard]

QUOTE]I did not know about the thin oil coated on steel wool. How does one wash steel wool?[/QUOTE]

Lacquer thinner or denatured alcohol work just fine. I do it in two, separate washes.

[Chris Fournier]

I would agree with other posters that you are likely sanding too much after you raise the grain. Go a bit lightly at this stage and half of your worries are over. Experiment with using 180 at this stage versus 220 and see if one works better for you.

Now once you have the colour on the maple top, you'll find that more grain has been raised - how is this possible? Dunno but it always happens! To knock this raised grain back I use a super or ultra fine 3M Scotchbrite pad on the now coloured maple. You can have at it with a fair bit of elbow grease and you won't cut through the colour. The end result is a perfect maple top ready for vinyl sanding sealer and further shader work or clear coating.

If there is still some raised grain poking through your sealer coat don't fret it, it's now very easy to knock it off by gently sanding the sealer coat - again the Scotchbrite works well at this stage.

Show us your new axe when you're ready for glowing accolades.