The most embarrassing thing I'll ever admit...I don't know how to use a hand saw.help

[Rick Cicciarelli]

So I have always been a fan of power tools....I love my miter saw....I love a nice table saw with a solid fence. I found early on that I was much better at working power tools than I was with hand tools. However, recently I have found my interest beginning to turn back to hand tools. I won't be able to convince myself that I enjoy using hand tools unless I can start to get decent results. I have watched guys make boards out of logs using regular old hand saws. In playing around with my own cross cut hand saw however, I find I can't keep it running in a straight line, and once it starts to go, I can't bring it back. What am I doing wrong? Yeah...this is embarrassing, but I just can't imagine how in the world someone can make a pretty flat board by running a hand saw down a log, and I have a hard time cross cutting an 8" board in a straight line.....ughhh...

[Jim Koepke]

It could be the saw.

There are a lot of good tutorials on sawing. Another member here has an awesome site with at least on sawing instruction video:

feed://handtoolstechniques.blip.tv/rss/flash

The #4 video is on hand sawing. If that link doesn't work, let me know and I will come up with another. That is how it is in my browser so I get an alert anytime Bob puts up something new.

If the saw tends to drift to one side no matter what you do, it may just need a simple truing. This is done with a sharpening stone. On the side that the saw pulls to, make one pass of the stone held flat against that side. Repeat if needed.

The other part that is hard to get when one first starts with a hand saw is to keep your elbow from moving off line. You want your whole arm, elbow, hand and shoulder to work like the connecting rod in a car engine or like the rod on a locomotive. Do not try to grip the saw real tight. Try to relax and not let the saw wiggle from side to side. The saw plate should stay in the same plane all the time.

Another thing that will help is having a solid place to secure your wood while it is being cut.

I takes time and practice. I was cutting some pieces today and was very happy with my progress in sawing from what it was just a few months ago. I am sure I will be even more satisfied in another few months.

I enjoy listening to music while working. That is hard to do with an electric saw.

Just keep trying. Soon, you may find that it is faster for a few pieces to just mark and cut by hand instead of setting up the power tools.

jtk

[Pam Niedermayer]

I'm a devoted hand tool user (btw, your problem may be due to the teeth on one side of your saw being set wider than the other side, fix is lightly stoning it on the side cutting more), and would never buy a compound miter saw; but, I won a Delta at a Woodcraft event, thus tried it. I immediately fell in love and use it for almost all crosscuts, especially wide boards. Anyone want to buy an unused Nobex? :)

Pam

[Dan Andrews]

To help me cut straight across a board, once I get the saw started and the kerf well established, I lower the angle of the saw to almost flat and carfully take a few strokes to get a shallow curf started all the way across the board. This helps me see the cut line after the pencil or scribe line is covered with saw dust. Even though this is a shallow kerf it does seem to help the saw track across the board too.

I have more problem keeping my cuts plumb. I have found that by looking at back of the saw as I cut and not just focusing on the cut line, I do keep the saw held more plumb.

Like anything else, the more you saw the better you get at it. Where the cut has to be perfect for gap free jointery, I cut the board about a 32" long and plane the end square. Shooting the end is probably the way to go, I just haven't got set up to do that. I use a sqare and frequent checks of my planing progress.

[lowell holmes]

http://www.blip.tv/file/2399481

View the episode at the link above. It will help.

[Casey Gooding]

First thing, make sure your saw is sharp and the saw plate is clean. That's most important. As pointed out, there are tutorials all over for sawing. With just a little practice, you'll get the hang of it.
It's really nothing to be embarrassed about. I can't tell you how many woodworkers (even professionals) I've met who can't saw their way out of a cardboard box. I recall seeing, more than once, a certain bearded, flannel clad woodworker we all know using a hand saw. I cringed!!! All four fingers gripping the handle and only using about three inches of teeth right in the middle of the blade.

[Brian Vaughn]

For years, I hated hand sawing, because I had the same problem as you. One day it finally clicked. My biggest problem was that I wanted the cut to go fast, so I put far to much force down on the saw. That caused other muscles to flex during the cut, and led to the slow curve off-line. Once I learned to keep my saws sharp, and let them do the work, it was like a whole other world. Instead of trying to push a dull saw through the wood, and wearing out my arm in the process, I put very little work into the actual process, and fought the saw a lot less. And my cuts are now much better.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Handsawing is a skill; intelligent directed practice makes a huge difference in just a few hours.

Since no one else mentioned it, Chris Schwartz's DVD on sawing fundamentals was well worth my $25.

[David Weaver]

I would guess, from the comments above, that this saw probably has an uneven amount of set, which is probably the most common thing for a saw that turns and refuses to be turned back.

Mechanics are important in a saw cut. For your first few cuts that you want to be square and on the line, try to find something (an old fruit crate, wooden box, etc) that will allow you to have your eyes right over the line of the blade. If you do that, it will be hard to not saw square to the cut and on the line if you keep the sawdust off of it.

If your saw keeps turning, and you're not sure if it's the saw, might be worth buying one of those cheap box store induction hardened saws to see if it cuts straight (probably cost you about $12). If you can cut straight with one of those ugly birds, then you will want to look at figuring out mechanically what the issue is with your saw.

[Terry Beadle]

In addition to the great advice given above is a trick I saw demo'ed by Jim Kingshott back in the VHS days. He used a marking knife on the line. Litely at first and then two or three deeper cuts. Then he took a paring chisel and cut on the waste side a very narrow strip or sliver of wood off all along the cut line. This gives the blade of the saw a good known resting start and is more accurate than just using your thumb and forefinger. Also, Tom Law recommends different cut starting angles for cross cuts versus rip cuts. Experiment with about 60 degrees for a rip and 45 for a cross cut. Some where about there you'll find that the saw will strike a balance with the way your teeth are filed and the internal texture of the wood grain.

I agree with the stoning of the pull side on your saw. Also, if the set is too wide, get a small 2 ~ 3 inch long end cut of hard wood. Take a medium weight hammer and using the end grain ends, lightly tap along the teeth of the pulling side of the saw. Then check the kurf cut in a test piece of wood. If is not binding and has a too much wiggle room between the two sides of the saw cut, repeat the hardwood tapping. Be sure to tap both sides of the teeth if the saw is no longer pulling to one side or the other. Keep adjusting the kurf narrower until there is still some looseness between the sides of the saw blade and the side of the cut. You can turn the saw upside down with the teeth pointed up to get a real good idea of how much you may or may not need to adjust the kurf. You do want some looseness in the kurf so that the saw will not bind....hence the lite tapping and not a meat hammer approach. A correctly tuned kurf width will make your sawing trueness a easier task.

I usually say "Enjoy the shavings" but in this case its saw dust and only good for filing in dovetail joints ( mixed with a bit of glue on your finger ).

[Rick Erickson]

Rick, as others have said there is a good chance your saw has issues. If you are really wanting to get into hand tools buy the best when you are starting out. There is no point trying to build skill on a less than quality tool. You will fight it every step of the way. How will you know what is you and what is the tool? Remove the tool from the equation. There is a place for 'old' tools but not in the hands of a beginner (unless someone who knows what they are doing has tuned the tool). Go buy a top quality saw and I think you will find different results. Hand sawing IS a skill but it isn't that hard.

[Billy McCarthy]

As someone who is just starting out with hand tools, I fully understand your frustration. Watching Chris Schwarz "teach" Roy Underhill on The Woodwright's Shop was really helpful. A few things that I took away from it:


Don't hold the saw too tightly. Tensing your wrist causes the blade to to tilt (try it). It's possible that your saw is not sharp and thus you're trying too hard.
Score a groove in the piece for the blade to ride in. Start at the far edge and cut a notch. Then lower the blade so that it starts making contact closer to you. Don't try to cut all the way through, just enough that it's not slipping. Continue to lower the blade until your groove runs all the way across the board.
Point your index finger down the blade when you hold it. Imagine a gun, keep your finger off the trigger since you have no intention of actually shooting anyone. :)

Tension in my hand is probably the hardest thing for me. When using a properly sharpened saw I was amazed that it actually worked better, the less I tried. Very counter-intuitive and difficult depending on the wood you're using. I've taken to only sawing a few strokes at a time, then forcing myself to stop and relax so as to not tense up, despite feeling excited about making progress and wanting to keep going.

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

Rick, as others have said there is a good chance your saw has issues. If you are really wanting to get into hand tools buy the best when you are starting out. There is no point trying to build skill on a less than quality tool. You will fight it every step of the way. How will you know what is you and what is the tool? Remove the tool from the equation. There is a place for 'old' tools but not in the hands of a beginner (unless someone who knows what they are doing has tuned the tool). Go buy a top quality saw and I think you will find different results. Hand sawing IS a skill but it isn't that hard.

I'm also trying to learn handsawing. I've found that my Veritas DT saws are a godsend when I was learning to make nice, clean, joinery cuts. However, I've not been able to find a good, new saw in rip and in crosscut that got consistently good reviews. Which saw would be a good place to start? Pax? LN? Wenzloff? Although I don't mind paying for quality (I do really like my Veritas DT saws), I also would rather not pay $350 for a new saw.

[Bob Warfield]

I don't know if this helps or not but just last Saturday I figured out how to use a saw. I too bought the Schwarz video, I recomend it BTW, and watched all the vids I could find on line. I couldn't make a square vertical cut or follow a line to save me. My problem was over-thinking what I was doing. When I picked up the saw and just started cutting without thinking the cuts where square on the vertical and horizontal. I know it was totally an accident but have made several dozen cuts since with different saws and all have been square.
Hope this helps,
Bob Warfield

[Jim Koepke]

When I picked up the saw and just started cutting without thinking the cuts where square on the vertical and horizontal.

This is probably the key to good sawing. Don't think about it, just let the saw do its thing while working your arm like a piston. Let the saw work with gravity instead of trying to force things.

Even my rip cuts are coming out straighter and more square. I think my next attempt will be to figure a way to hold pieces while they are resawn from 4/4 to 2/4.

jtk

[Rick Erickson]

I'm also trying to learn handsawing. I've found that my Veritas DT saws are a godsend when I was learning to make nice, clean, joinery cuts. However, I've not been able to find a good, new saw in rip and in crosscut that got consistently good reviews. Which saw would be a good place to start? Pax? LN? Wenzloff? Although I don't mind paying for quality (I do really like my Veritas DT saws), I also would rather not pay $350 for a new saw.

Chen-Tin,
I can't speak to all of the companies you have listed but I've had great success with LN, Bad Axe and Rob Cosman saws. For smaller joinery (rip, x-cut) I started with LN saws. They were very nice. I've since upgraded to Cosmans saws. I prefer them over the LNs (weight, balance, grip, etc.). I also have a few Bad Axe saws that I use for larger joinery cuts (M&T, etc.). It really depends on what you are using the saw for before a recommendation could be made. And, everyone's milage may vary :D. Some people have a whole lot more skill than I and can get buy with other tools. I try to eliminate the tool problems from the mix. That way I know whatever issues I'm fighting are my fault and easily corrected.

[Rick Lasita]

Hi Rick, I once shared your pain :), and I am not an expert, but I am getting better. First and foremost, be sure your tool is sharp, I know that sounds like advise you have heard before, but it makes a difference. I sent my saws out for sharpening, I thought that was going to be a skill I wanted to learn, but decided somethings are best left to professionals and in my opinion that is one of them. Contact Mark at Bad Axe Tools for prices. As far as keeping it online, I find the position of my body (pretty much behind the blade) which side of the saw I am looking at (I am right handed so for some reason I look at the left side of the blade) not sure that is correct but it works. When I find that I am drifting off line, I lower the handle to take a shallow cut until I get back to the cut line. One other point, I built a saw bench and there are a number of examples on-line, Popular Woodworking has a good example. Hope this helps. I just finished a Shaker Step Stool completely with hand tools. You can see it at firstlightwoodworking.blogspot.com, good luck. Rick

[Chen-Tin Tsai]

Chen-Tin,
I can't speak to all of the companies you have listed but I've had great success with LN, Bad Axe and Rob Cosman saws. For smaller joinery (rip, x-cut) I started with LN saws. They were very nice. I've since upgraded to Cosmans saws. I prefer them over the LNs (weight, balance, grip, etc.). I also have a few Bad Axe saws that I use for larger joinery cuts (M&T, etc.). It really depends on what you are using the saw for before a recommendation could be made. And, everyone's milage may vary :D. Some people have a whole lot more skill than I and can get buy with other tools. I try to eliminate the tool problems from the mix. That way I know whatever issues I'm fighting are my fault and easily corrected.

Rick,

I forgot to mention that the two saws I'm "shopping" for would be large, rough cut type saws or panel saws (I'm still confused by this name), 22"-26" and with 6-10 tpi rip/8-12tpi crosscut. The LN's look great, but I wonder if the 20" length would be too short for rough cutting stock.

Maybe I should back up and describe my intended use first. I need a pair of saws to cut the roughsawn wood into workable pieces, either ripping or crosscutting, ie, cutting an 8' long 8" wide 4/4 board into a 3' long 6" wide piece prior to surfacing/smoothing/joinery. At the moment, I feel like I'm set for most of my joinery with my LV Carcass (one rip and one crosscut) and small joinery saws (one rip DT, one fine rip DT, and one crosscut). It's the breaking down of stock that I can't do right now, and end up using my crappy table saw for that.

[Bob Glenn]

If you're having trouble keeping the cut plumb and square, use an old carpenter's trick. Polish the blade until you can see the reflection of the wood on the blade. Look at edge of the board you are cutting and move the saw on the cutting mark until both the edge of the wood and the reflection line up in a straight line. As long as these lines are straight and parallel you are cutting square and plumb. Try it, it works! Other than that it's important to have the right frame of mind. "Be the blade"

[john brenton]

It's not uncommon at all. I answer ads all the time for cabinet shop closings and almost never find a single hand tool, and the ones that I do find are usually crappy and dull. The cabinet maker (or whatever) may hand me a beat up old "Craftsman" chisel and say, "be careful with that, it's razor sharp" and to me it feels like a butter knife.

I visited a cabinet maker in Peru a few weeks ago and surprisingly he knew almost nothing about hand tools. He made nice furniture, but did it all the joinery on machines and all the surface finishing with sandpaper. We were talking and when he sneezed sawdust went everywhere...reminded me why I use hand tools and don't use sandpaper.