Wet Sharpeners and Antifreeze

[Tom Hintz]

I am in the process of doing a test mixing antifreeze with the water that saturates my JET Slow Speed Grinder stone wheel. I keep getting email on this and nobody seems to know much about it though many are more than willing to theorize.



I decided to give it a whirl and right now my JET stone grinding wheel is saturated with a 50% mixture of water and Sierra brand antifreeze. This brand claims to be "safer" for people and animals yet shows remarkable freeze protection down to temperatures that really should be off of the woodworking scale of probability.



So far the wheel has been saturated and re saturated with the antifreeze/water solution and nothing has happened to the stone. It still grinds fine, hasn't gone soft and despite being set directly in front of a hole in the garage door in my unheated shop, hasn't been bothered by temperatures (measured at the grinding wheel) of 18-degrees so far.



If anyone has tried this and has first hand information I'd like to hear it! Email me at thintz@newwoodworker.com.

[Carroll Courtney]

Interesting Tom,I'm new to using a Tormek and wondering what is the advantage of using antifreeze?Thanks Carroll

[Michael Schneider]

If you have pets, make sure they stay away from it.

Antifreeze is tasty to them and very very toxic.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

Sierra Antifreeze is made from Propolyene Glycol, not Ethylene Glycol is not as hazardous to pets. Generally not hazardous at all except in very large quantities, unlike ethylene glycol which will cause kidney failure in small doses.

[Karl Brogger]

If you have pets, make sure they stay away from it.

Antifreeze is tasty to them and very very toxic.

Anti-freeze is tasty......



My blade guy uses it for lubricant/coolant. I don't think its corrosive as water, and doesn't evaporate off as quickly. Mostly speculation there though.

[Tom Hintz]

Interesting Tom,I'm new to using a Tormek and wondering what is the advantage of using antifreeze?Thanks Carroll
To keep it from freezing and breaking if you leave the machine in a cold shop space.

[Don Bullock]

Sierra Antifreeze is made from Propolyene Glycol, not Ethylene Glycol is not as hazardous to pets. Generally not hazardous at all except in very large quantities, unlike ethylene glycol which will cause kidney failure in small doses.

Bill is correct in the types of antifreeze and what they are made of. The effects of Ethylene Glycol on pets is very dramatic and in most cases fatal. The effects are total renal (kidney and liver) failure. As Michael stated this type of antifreeze is tasty to dogs and cats because to them it's sweet -- like drinking candy. It's amazing how many household products, i.e. most cleaners, ink and even tooth paste, contain Ethylene Glycol. I researched this when we had a one of our Champion basset hounds with renal failure. Fortunately her case was caused by an antibiotic and three dialysis treatments and a long hospital stay cured her. She's now eight and a mother and grandmother of Champions.

Propolyene Glycol does not harm animals and is just as effective an an antifreeze according to the research I did.

[Bobby Knourek]

I would recomend an RV anti-freeze.
About 3.00 per gallon, tastes like hell and is safe to drink.(go figure)
Dont delute it, just run it straight.
It works great for everything, unless you need it as a lubricant as you do in engines
to lubricate bearings in water pumps.(auto, not marine)

Even if you dont have pets, you may have visitors...and you have to dump it sometime.

Bobby.

[ray hampton]

OKAY,it is time for a stupid question---how do you wash the
anti-freeze off of your hands before it go thru. your skin

[Tom Hintz]

I did use the Sierra brand antifreeze because it is "safer" and is made with the Propylene Glycol. However, none of the "safe" brands we found say that it is 100% safe and we have to keep that in mind. regardless of how big of a dose would be needed to cause harm, I treat this stuff like it is still poison. I can't see taking a chance no matter how small it may be.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

OK, so second (or maybe 3rd) dumb question. No one yet answered Carroll's question. I have the same question.

What is the purpose of using antifreeze? Even at 3 bucks a gallon, it's way expensive compared to water. Smells bad, unknown health effects if you touch it every day, and all the pet hazzards.

[Tom Hintz]

OK, so second (or maybe 3rd) dumb question. No one yet answered Carroll's question. I have the same question.

What is the purpose of using antifreeze? Even at 3 bucks a gallon, it's way expensive compared to water. Smells bad, unknown health effects if you touch it every day, and all the pet hazzards.
Tbhe purpose of using antifreeze is to keep the water from freezing. lots of people work in spaces that do not have full-time heating. If the water is allowed to freeze (expand) the stone wheels can break. the hazards are wqhy I use the Siearra brand antifreeze (as mentioned in the earlier post) which is much safer.

[Marty Paulus]

Proplene Glycol, as stated, is safe for use in RV/Marine water systems and, in moderation, can be consumed. We use it in the boats/rv on board water systems and fresh water holding tanks. It does taste horrible if it is not all flushed from the tanks and water lines but it will not kill you. There are three levels of protection from these types. -50F, -80F and -100F. Keep in mind, however that all three will turn to slush at about 0-10F. The claim to fame of these is that they do not expand when they freeze and therefore do not cause damage to pipes and engine blocks.

Don't believe me on the freezing? Try an experiment and take your -50F and pour a small amount into a bowl and put it in your freezer. You will get at least slush if not a solid freeze. However it will not expand and break the container.

The Siearra brand is not any more or less safe then any other brand. The trick is to find RV water system antifreeze.

[Tom Hintz]

I found at least four varieties of RV-type antifreeze and all carried the exact same warnings as the Sierra did. In fact, one seemed a bit more troubling so I went with what was more common on the market.

[David Weaver]

It'll be interesting to see if the wheel degrades over a longer term. Jet might have a comment on it, but since they import it, maybe they wouldn't know.

Tormek might know, they might've experimented over something, but their ceramic wheel binder is harder, so who knows if it's the same thing and the experience of one can be assumed to be accurate for another.

From a practical standpoint, I think I would move the machine into the house for the winter and use it in the basement or whatever, rather than having my hands in antifreeze the entire time. You can make do in the shop with a belt sander and microbevels if something really needs to be sharpened, and with a dry grinder and diamond hone for turning tools, including a homemade wolverine type sharpener to keep costs down.

[ray hampton]

Proplene Glycol, as stated, is safe for use in RV/Marine water systems and, in moderation, can be consumed. We use it in the boats/rv on board water systems and fresh water holding tanks. It does taste horrible if it is not all flushed from the tanks and water lines but it will not kill you. There are three levels of protection from these types. -50F, -80F and -100F. Keep in mind, however that all three will turn to slush at about 0-10F. The claim to fame of these is that they do not expand when they freeze and therefore do not cause damage to pipes and engine blocks.

Don't believe me on the freezing? Try an experiment and take your -50F and pour a small amount into a bowl and put it in your freezer. You will get at least slush if not a solid freeze. However it will not expand and break the container.

The Siearra brand is not any more or less safe then any other brand. The trick is to find RV water system antifreeze.

are you talking about freezing pure anti-freeze or a water +anti-freeze mixture ?

[steven c newman]

Most antifreezes on the market are already pre-mixed, 50-50 IIRC. The factory I work at uses straight (green) anti-freeze to cool their molding machines. I'm cleaning this stuff up off the floor whenever there is a leak, smells SOOOO good. If you are concerned about skin exposure, do what we do, put on a pair of those nirtile (blue) gloves like finishers do. Some of the stuff we clean up everyday: water (condensation), anti-freeze( hey, we do get leaky hoses here), hydraulic oils( more leaks), and a white grease (food safe) and loose resin pellets that turn your shoes into ice skates. Full time job of being a janitor, as well as a machine operator. These machines will run 24/7/364.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Tbhe purpose of using antifreeze is to keep the water from freezing. lots of people work in spaces that do not have full-time heating. If the water is allowed to freeze (expand) the stone wheels can break. the hazards are wqhy I use the Siearra brand antifreeze (as mentioned in the earlier post) which is much safer.

Wow, you leave the stone soaking? I always take the water and dump it out. So much slurry in it. I can see freezing problems, draining the tub would be better IMO. You get nice clean water every time you use it. At 180 bucks a stone, not worth the risk. Not that I ever see freezing problems. When the thermometer dips below 70, I call it quits.

[ray hampton]

it is not surprising that anti-freeze taste good , I've clean battery cables and the battery posts and the acid goof taste good to

[Tom Hintz]

Wow, you leave the stone soaking? I always take the water and dump it out. So much slurry in it. I can see freezing problems, draining the tub would be better IMO. You get nice clean water every time you use it. At 180 bucks a stone, not worth the risk. Not that I ever see freezing problems. When the thermometer dips below 70, I call it quits.

I do not leave the stone soak in the water or the water/antifreeze solution but for this test have been saturating it every day so that the internal load of the water/antifreeze solution stays fairly constant. I wanted to see if the antifreeze itself would degrade the stone. Even with the antifreeze in the solution after the stone sits for a few hours the upper surfaces feel pretty dry, just as they do with plain water. However, there still is a bunch on the inside and that is where the trouble comes from if it freezes.

[Marty Paulus]

are you talking about freezing pure anti-freeze or a water +anti-freeze mixture ?

The pure antifreeze straight from the bottle. When we winterize the engines and water systems on the boats we dump in in straight. But the straight antifreeze (proplene glycol) does freeze at about zero but does not expand like plain water does. It is the expansion that causes the damage. Since we don't run the engines or water systems when it is that cold the freezing doesn't hurt anything.

[Gary Hodgin]

I contacted Jeff Farris at Sharp Tools USA about the use of antifreeze/water for the Tormek. I asked about a 50/50 mixture Sierra Brand antifreeze and water. His response was, "Anti-freeze will foul the grindstone to the point of making it useless." I'm taking his word for it.