Question about making a roughing gouge

[Scott T Smith]

I have recently joined "the dark side" with the purchase of a Delta 46-460 midi lathe. My first project is to make some tools for the lathe. I have a basic set, but I'd like to make a few tools that are more substantial. I have both a metal working and woodworking background, as well as metal working machinery (mill, lathe, TIG welding, blacksmith anvil and tools, etc), and for grins I'd like to make as much of the tools myself as opposed to buying pre-made parts and assemblying them.

I would like to make a tool for roughing as the first tool, since the one that I have is not very substantial. There are two routes that I can go - make a traditional one with a 3/4" semicircular bit (I have a nice chunk of 1/4" thick, 2" wide tool steel that I can forge into shape for this purpose), or I can go the carbide insert route and make my own version of the "Easy Rougher" tool.

I have turned my first handle and installed a brass ferule that I turned down from a piece of brass pipe. The handle is about 9" long, so I'm estimating that the metal portion of the tool will need to be about 9" long as well, with 3" embedded in the handle and about 6" protruding.

I'll be using the tool with a 1 hp Delta 46-460 midi lathe. My question is this - for rough turning square stock round on a midi lathe, which works better - the semicircular roughing gouge or the flat tipped easy rougher design? OR - is there some other design that I should consider?

My next tool will probably be a long handled oval shank skew chisel, also made from some of the aforementioned tool steel.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Scott

[bob svoboda]

If you are doing spindle work as you describe, IMO you would be better off with the roughing gouge type of tool. I have the EZ roughing tool and occasionally use it to rough out bowl blanks, but haven't seen the need to use it for spindle work.

[Steve LaFara]

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to use the EZ style tools for just about everything? No sharpening to speak of is a huge advantage. I'm new to this also so I may be way off, but as I look at investing in tools, it just makes sense to go the EZ carbide insert route for everything unless I'm missing something .

[Neil Strong]

Yes, you could forge a Spindle Roughing Gouge from your tool steel stock and, provided you get the tempering and the flute profile right, it will do the/a job. BUT, there is a reason why most woodturners now use HSS tools. HCS just doesn't hold an edge long enough to be worth using, particularly for heavy duty work like roughing cuts.

As you know, HSS requires far more complex processes than HCS. Unless you already have all the gear (eg precise high temp ovens, molten salt quenching bath and pyrometers) then it isn't worth it for a few tools. Just buying the HSS tools you need may not be very DIY, but would be cheaper. Secondhand HSS roughing gouges usually have years of use left in them and a recognised brand name (like P&N) would be a good buy.

But, if DIY still has a firm grip on you, carbide tips would be the way to go. A cheap entry point if you have the metal working skills. There are countless threads out there on forums on how to go about it. If you do, invest in some sort of powered diamond wheel to keep the carbide sharp. Without that the replacement tips will eventually cost you much more than buying a good quality HSS roughing gouge.

BTW, a 9" handle on a roughing gouge seems a bit short to me, unless you are something like a pen turner.

[George Clark]

Steve,

You just don't understand. That's just not the way real wood turners do it. You're taking the easy way out. You'll never really learn to turn if you use these cheater tools. You must use tools that you sharpen and rub the bevel and have a long learning curve to be accepted by the "real" wood turners. At least, thats the sort of feedback I (and others) received from many, when bloviating on the merits of EZ Wood Tools. Seriously, I think they're great tools with a short learning curve and I use them. While they may not be, the do all end all, they have found a place in a great many turners arsenal.

George

[David T gray]

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to use the EZ style tools for just about everything? No sharpening to speak of is a huge advantage. I'm new to this also so I may be way off, but as I look at investing in tools, it just makes sense to go the EZ carbide insert route for everything unless I'm missing something .

the cutters dont last forever and are expensive you can make your own tool and buy the square cutters for much cheaper from other places. for about $35 total you can build the tool and buy about 10 cutters for it. search utube for the guide on it.

[Ryan Baker]

You should go ahead and build a carbide tool, because they are handy to have for some things. But they are NO substitute for a good roughing gouge (or any other gouge IMO). I agree with the comment that making turning tools from HCS instead of HSS is a bad idea because of the heat and durabilty issues. The HCS is better suited to tools for non-turning woodworking.

And go with a rectangular-bodied skew. Oval skews are not nearly as useful.

[Dennis Ford]

Carbide tooling like that made by Easy Wood has a place in most turners toolboxs, I can't imagine using it exclusively though.
Certainly HSS tooling is better than high carbon tooling but don't dismiss high carbon steel completely. It can be hardened to about the same hardness as HSS and will take an keen edge equal to or better than HSS. The main disadvantage to high carbon steel is that the hardness will be lost if it gets too hot (this often happens during grinding).

[David E Keller]

Roughing gouges can be had for very little money, but if you're looking for the thrill of making something, the roughing gouge would be the greater challenge I believe. I've got a couple of carbide tools, but I don't find myself reaching for them very often... There's nothing wrong with them, and in many cases, they excel. I suppose I just prefer the more traditional tools at this point.

[Rob Sitze]

I have an EZ rougher, collects dust under my bench. I used it twice, didn't like it, I can rough out easier and faster with a bowl gouge and with much more control. Scott, if you want to try it out, I'll bring it over.

[Art Kelly]

The main disadvantage to high carbon steel is that the hardness will be lost if it gets too hot (this often happens during grinding).

The principal advantage of HCS over HSS is that if you cook it on the grinder (c'mon, who does that?:eek:), you can fix it. All it takes is a propane torch, a small magnet to test that you are above the critical temperature, and a cat-food can of water or oil--depending on the grade you use.

Like Dennis said, the [room-temperature] hardness (or any temperature you will ever reach on a wood lathe under normal circumstances) of O1 (HCS with 0.95% carbon) versus M2 HSS is small to none.

O1: http://www.artmetal.com/files/imported/project/TOC/proces/O1tech.html
M2: http://www.icscuttingtools.com/Tooldata.htm

The second advantage--cost--leads to the third: You can touch it up and change the bevel angles with much less remorse.

Of course, I'm not going to start forging grooves in 1/2" O1 drill rod to make bowl gouges. In my personal case, I could have M2 tools shipped by pack mule and get them before I'd get a decent tool made if I had to forge it to a curved shape. (And I'm pretty sure I know how to do it.)

But it would be fun. Roy Underhill would like it.

Art

[Scott T Smith]

The principal advantage of HCS over HSS is that if you cook it on the grinder (c'mon, who does that?:eek:), you can fix it. All it takes is a propane torch, a small magnet to test that you are above the critical temperature, and a cat-food can of water or oil--depending on the grade you use.

Like Dennis said, the [room-temperature] hardness (or any temperature you will ever reach on a wood lathe under normal circumstances) of O1 (HCS with 0.95% carbon) versus M2 HSS is small to none.

O1: http://www.artmetal.com/files/imported/project/TOC/proces/O1tech.html
M2: http://www.icscuttingtools.com/Tooldata.htm

The second advantage--cost--leads to the third: You can touch it up and change the bevel angles with much less remorse.

Of course, I'm not going to start forging grooves in 1/2" O1 drill rod to make bowl gouges. In my personal case, I could have M2 tools shipped by pack mule and get them before I'd get a decent tool made if I had to forge it to a curved shape. (And I'm pretty sure I know how to do it.)

But it would be fun. Roy Underhill would like it.

Art

All - many thanks for the feedback and advice. I am embarrassed to admit that I made a mistake in my original post - the hunks of steel that I have ARE HSS - not tool steel (I actually have both in stock), they are blanks for planer knives for a Woodmaster moulder that were included when I bought a used profile grinder. I think that I must have had tool steel on the brain when I made my original post.

Neil, thanks especially for the detailed feedback. Re the handle length, in my quest to try out my new lathe I grabbed a scrap piece of 2" x 2" x 12" walnut that I happened to have in stock, as opposed to milling out of some of my wider (and longer) walnut planks. I figured that there was a high liklihood that I would mess up the first one (it's been about 40 years since I last used a wood lathe), and I did not want to destroy something expensive, hence the shorter length. Future handles will probably be longer.

I'm leaning more towards the gouge as opposed to carbide insert tool for my first one. If anything, an easy rougher style of tool should probably have a much longer handle, but hopefully a gouge suitable for a midi-lathe will be ok with the 9 incher.

Bending the HSS into a half-round is going to be an interesting challenge - probably moreso than turning the handle!
I agree that it will be a much greater challenge than simply making a shank that will take a carbide insert.

Art - Roy's shop is only about 15 minutes from my farm; I guess that the quest for the unusual is prevalent in this area!

Rob, by all means toss that EZ Rougher in the car and drop it off the next time that you're headed this way. By the way, have you done anything yet with the spalted maple bowl blank that you picked up the other day?

Thanks again to all for the feedback - please keep it coming.

[Bob Haverstock]

I I'll be using the tool with a 1 hp Delta 46-460 midi lathe. My question is this - for rough turning square stock round on a midi lathe, which works better - the semicircular roughing gouge or the flat tipped easy rougher design? OR - is there some other design that I should consider?

My next tool will probably be a long handled oval shank skew chisel, also made from some of the aforementioned tool steel.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Hi Scott,

Let me get the senerio fxed in my mind. Let's see, an interrupted cut, large and close to the max. capacity of the lathe, and the potential of lots of tool pressure. From my prospective, the tool needs to be 20 plus inches of overall length ( easier to control and absorbs shock from the interrupted cut). The narrower the cutting edge the less horse power needed to make the cut. I would make a semi-curcular gouge (it's stronger than a flat tool of the same thickness). 3/4" diameter would be nice. I might try a varation of a fingernail grind. Yep, I'd try to ride the bevel. Oh well, if it doesn't work make another. Oh, keep them sharp!

Scott, not trying to be a jerk. I make a lot of my tools, I enjoy doing it. I forge most of them out of 5160, I just acquired some 1095 that I will use next. When you step off into this vortex of making and using tools, you will learn a lot. Please let us know how you get along.

Bob Haverstock

[Rob Sitze]

Rob, by all means toss that EZ Rougher in the car and drop it off the next time that you're headed this way. By the way, have you done anything yet with the spalted maple bowl blank that you picked up the other day?

Will do, and no, it's sitting on my saw bench, waiting for the ice to clear. Now that it's cleared I'm working 12 hour days. Hope to get it cut up this weekend.

[Scott T Smith]

I I'll be using the tool with a 1 hp Delta 46-460 midi lathe. My question is this - for rough turning square stock round on a midi lathe, which works better - the semicircular roughing gouge or the flat tipped easy rougher design? OR - is there some other design that I should consider?

My next tool will probably be a long handled oval shank skew chisel, also made from some of the aforementioned tool steel.

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Hi Scott,

Let me get the senerio fxed in my mind. Let's see, an interrupted cut, large and close to the max. capacity of the lathe, and the potential of lots of tool pressure. From my prospective, the tool needs to be 20 plus inches of overall length ( easier to control and absorbs shock from the interrupted cut). The narrower the cutting edge the less horse power needed to make the cut. I would make a semi-curcular gouge (it's stronger than a flat tool of the same thickness). 3/4" diameter would be nice. I might try a varation of a fingernail grind. Yep, I'd try to ride the bevel. Oh well, if it doesn't work make another. Oh, keep them sharp!

Scott, not trying to be a jerk. I make a lot of my tools, I enjoy doing it. I forge most of them out of 5160, I just acquired some 1095 that I will use next. When you step off into this vortex of making and using tools, you will learn a lot. Please let us know how you get along.

Bob Haverstock

Bob - thanks for the feedback. I'll keep y'all informed as things progress.

[Ryan Baker]

Bending the HSS into a half-round is going to be an interesting challenge - probably moreso than turning the handle!
I agree that it will be a much greater challenge than simply making a shank that will take a carbide insert.


Uuhh ... bending HSS?? Now you're talking about annealing the HSS to bend it ... which will require starting over with the hardening and tempering. That is nothing like hardening and tempering O1 HCS. You won't be doing that at home unless you have access to a lot of facilities you haven't mentioned here. Bending HSS is not a realistic option.

Bowl gouges these days (unlike the gouges of days past) normally have the flute milled out of solid round stock instead of being forged into shape. They are much stronger and more uniform that way. Hand-forging some spindle gouges would be fun to do though.

[Allen stagg]

I have some that I got for my Birthday in November. I have used them and seem to like them, but have used the Elsworth Signature Gouge for most everything, but these do work quite well. I tried out the Rougher and really worked quite well and seemed to rough quite fast. The carbide blades can be sharpened also using a flat diamond sharpener from what I have heard works quite well by just laying the top of the cutter on the diamond sharpener and rub with an oil lubricant until it is sharp as needed. Should work well. I got the David Marks version which has longer handles and I really liked the feel of the multi level handles. They fit well. Wouldn't give up my Signature Gouge, but these do have a place. Haven't used the smaller tool with the hook in it yet.



.177798177797

[Scott T Smith]

[QUOTE=Ryan Baker;1609498]Uuhh ... bending HSS?? Now you're talking about annealing the HSS to bend it ... which will require starting over with the hardening and tempering. That is nothing like hardening and tempering O1 HCS. You won't be doing that at home unless you have access to a lot of facilities you haven't mentioned here. Bending HSS is not a realistic option.

QUOTE]

Ryan, it is entirely possible that I'll "go down in flames" on this project, but what the heck! For some folks, it's the journey - for other folks, it's the destination. For me, it's nice to incorporate both in the project.

[Ryan Baker]

Ryan, it is entirely possible that I'll "go down in flames" on this project, but what the heck! For some folks, it's the journey - for other folks, it's the destination. For me, it's nice to incorporate both in the project.

Well in that case, by all means carry on. Experimenting is fun. Good luck!

[Scott T Smith]

It's been a while since I updated this thread, and I've made some good progress on making a tool in the past few weeks.

After giving it some thought, I decided to make my first tool as the "EZ Rougher" style, primarily because I already had some spare carbide inserts and screws, as well as the appropriate material, and it would be easier (and quicker) to make versus reforming the HSS that I have in stock.

Here is the insert that I had in stock. This is a spare for my Oliver 25" Jointer/planer, and it is approximately 9/16" square.


192168

Step one was cutting a 12" long blank from 1/2" square stock steel, and using a porta-band to cut the rough notch in the end.

192167

Step 2 was using a grinder to clean up the cuts and shape the notch.

192169



Next, I drilled a hole for the screw, and started to tap it. Unfortunately, one of my farm hands had broken the tip of the 6mm tap on some past project, so I reshaped it prior to taping. Unfortunately, I broke it off! (insert bad language here...). After getting the pieces out of the hole (always a fun task...), I was able to reshape the remaining portion of the tap and complete the hole. Fortunately it was only about a 15 minute setback.

192170


The next step was to polish the sides of the tool insert.

192171


The completed tool insert came out rather nice:

192172


Next, I turned a piece of quartersawn sycamore on the lathe, and drilled a 1/2" hole in the end. Based upon the advice from others on this string, I made the tool handle 16" long, and there will be another 9" of insert protruding from it. The finish is Shellawax Creme.

192173


Rather than taking 45 minutes or so to turn down some brass fittings for the ferrule, I wimped out and ordered some ferrules from Lee Valley. I like the fact that they are formed on the end as opposed to being open tubing. They should arrive tomorrow, which will allow me to complete the handle and assemble this weekend. I know that I could have used some copper tubing, but I prefer the look of the brass.

I was able to utilize the tool insert in shaping the handle, and it worked fairly well. It was fun to combine some metal and woodworking skills in the same project. My only out-of-pocket costs to build this was $1.60 for the ferrule, as I had all of the rest of the material in stock.

Overall it was a fun project. My thanks to all who shared their advice.

[Steve Campbell]

Come on now Scott tell us the truth. You said your out of pocket was only $1.60. I can't believe you or any man could place an order to Lee Valley and not get a bunch of other stuff. You have to include that in your cost too.. LOL

Steve

[Scott T Smith]

Come on now Scott tell us the truth. You said your out of pocket was only $1.60. I can't believe you or any man could place an order to Lee Valley and not get a bunch of other stuff. You have to include that in your cost too.. LOL

Steve

<grin> Well....... you caught me.... yes, the total Lee Valley order was significantly greater than a buck sixty.... but none of the rest of the stuff was for the roughing tool so it doesn't count!