S4S Wood vs. Self Planed & Jointed

[Alex Knapp]

Beginning woodworker here, with a question:

How much difference is there between S4S wood and being able to joint and plane the wood yourself in your own shop.

I have nearly all the basic tools, and am quite enjoying the small projects i've done so far. Now I want to tackle something bigger but I don't have a Jointer or a Planer, and can only imagine the conversation with my wife:

"You want to spend $700 on WHAT?!? No"
"But Honey..."

So, if I can get away with using S4S wood instead, I will. Thoughts?

[Rich Engelhardt]

In my area it's very rare to find S4S that's flat, straight and uniform thickness.
The stuff Menards carries in plastic shrink wrap is by far the best I've come across.

I guess it comes down to what's available in your area/local lumber mill policy - can you pick through the stock.
(Around here , you get what they give you).

Just this past Saturday I picked up some 1x6 S4S poplar from a local mill.
It's ok - but - it's going to need a bit of work.
I'd have driven the hour one way to Menards but, I only needed two 4' pieces and was at the mill picking up some poplar trim anyhow,so...

[greg a bender]

Don't forget, you can do nice things with hand planes :).
That was how I was taught in 7th grade shop class.
I built a number of nice pieces using what lumber I could find and machining it by hand. When I could afford it, I bought power tools.

Just a thought.

Greg A.

[David Nelson1]

Welcome to the Creek Alex.

Depends on quite a few things. Money is the biggest, 2nd will be time. As Greg mentioned hand planing is a very good way to understand the wood. Learning how the grain runs, what type grain patterns are more freindly, and the peculiarities of different species. This is the basics of dimensioning your own stock whether you go power or use hand tools.

If you chose power tools, of course you might be looking at the cost of additional electical mods, dust collection, and most certainly you still will need a few specifc hand tools. If you have the time go the hand tools route. Of course a fairly sturdy bench and some means of securing your work will be required.

[Jeff Monson]

When I first started the mill I bought from would plane to 3/4" and straightline rip for a small fee per bf. It worked
great for me until I got a jointer and planer. If I have a large project, like a kitchen, I will still order it planed to 3/4" to save on time.

[Mike Heidrick]

If I joint and plane it myself I am sure of exactly what I am working with.

Buy a used jointer and used lunchbox - should get you through this for less than $700.

[glenn bradley]

Don't forget, you can do nice things with hand planes :).


Hmmm, don't forget the problem of "You want to spend how much? On what?". Now don't go pretending that $100 or so will set you up for hand work :D:D:D.

If you can acquire some decent hand tools, they will certainly allow you to build furniture. We didn't always have the luxury of today's machines. If you try to build a Morris chair out of pine from the BORG, I can see you getting frustrated and disappointed.

Set your exectations to include the quality of the material that is available to you and I think you will do OK. Once you get a few things under your belt that are targeted to your available supplies and tools, you may find you really like it. LOYL may find that she really likes having the things that you make and you can both decide how to go from there ;).

[Stephen Cherry]

My opinion is that it depends on what you want to make. For example, if you have a table top that is 36 x60 inches, when you screw that down to the table aprons it will flatten out, and be held flat by the table apron. On the other hand, the rails and stiles of a cabinet door are just hanging in the breeze, so should be as flat as possible right from the beginning.

[Rod Sheridan]

Alex, the basis of good joinery is flat, straight wood.

If you can obtain it S4S in your area for a reasonable price, and it's straight, you're good to go.

I've never been stisfied with S4S material available in my area, so I buy wood rough and joint and plane it.

The other item to consider is that most furniture components aren't 3/4" thick, so you'll need a method of making components that don't come in standard dimensioned sizes.

To surface your own wood you need a jointer and a planer or a few hand planes.

Once you have the ability to surface your own material, it opens up an enormity of possibilities, and can be a cost savings in the long term.

regards, Rod.

[Mike Goetzke]

Before I had the tools I bought S4S at the big box and lumber yards. I then picked up a used 6" jointer and new lunch box planer for around $500. Besides the benefits of flatter/straightrer wood I estimate I save almost $4/BF. So around $400/100BF. I had a couple of projects at the time that required 300BF so the savings was easy justification for the tools (at least that's what I told the wife).

Good Luck,

Mike

[Derek Gilmer]

Also, you can joint your stock on a planer if needed using a planer sled. A bit more hassle but cheaper than buying a planer and jointer at first.

[Steve Ryan]

Keep an eye on Craigs list. Small planers can be had for very reasonable $, jointers too. If I buy 100 or 1000 bd ft I always get it planed by the mill. 4/4 milled to 7/8 hit or miss and 8/4 milled to either 1 3/4 or 1 7/8 hit or miss. Mill is instructed to remove equal amounts from each side. I can do all I need from there and the mill takes most of the chips out of the equation. Almost all of the board cleans up and you can see what you are working with a lot easier.

[Brent Ring]

Alex, the basis of good joinery is flat, straight wood.

If you can obtain it S4S in your area for a reasonable price, and it's straight, you're good to go.

I've never been stisfied with S4S material available in my area, so I buy wood rough and joint and plane it.

The other item to consider is that most furniture components aren't 3/4" thick, so you'll need a method of making components that don't come in standard dimensioned sizes.

To surface your own wood you need a jointer and a planer or a few hand planes.

Once you have the ability to surface your own material, it opens up an enormity of possibilities, and can be a cost savings in the long term.

regards, Rod.

Rod is spot on here, and, if you get access to felled trees and have a mill rought them out for you - your cost per board ft drops dramatically. And you may get some fun things in the process. I got a 24" x18' long Apricot log and some big branches for free, paid for the milling, and have since done a lot of my own milling to S4S for a fraction of what I would have paid to buy apricot, if I could find it in boards. With your own tools, the possibilities are endless.

[Jon McElwain]

I definitely like my power tools, but I did not always have the luxury. Some of my first projects came from a 24" dia. alder tree that I cut down on a friends property. We bucked it into 8' lengths, took it to a local sawmill and I ended up with over 300 b.f. cut to 4/4 and 8/4 rough sawn - total cost $140. After seasoning and converting it, I cut it to length and width on an old 10" craftsman contractor tablesaw. Next I face planed the boards to thickness with a $5 garage sale jack plane. After a hot shower, aspirin and a few days to recover I set out to join some boards. I had an old stanley jointer plane that I used to join the boards together. I laid out the boards they way I wanted them glued, then took two at a time, folding the pair like a book and hand jointed the two boards at the same time. This ensured that even if I did not plane them at exactly 90 degrees to the surface, the angle would match and they would join flat. The glue up was not perfect, but quite acceptable - nearly invisible glue lines. I built the carcase with hand cut dovetails, doors with the tablesaw and a router, drawers were hand cut dovetails, and all joinery was hand cut or cut with the aid of the tablesaw.

I got the router from my dad, tablesaw was a freebe, probably $40 in garage sale tools, and another $50 in glue, blades and bits. Anyway, do not be afraid to talk with the folks in the Neander forum to find out how you can build high quality furniture with hand tools. It is easy to get stuck thinking we need some fancy new tools, but with a little resourcefulness, hard work and patience, quality projects can be completed on a budget and with modest tools (do not ever tell my wife this).

While you are doing this, be saving your lunch money, ask for gift certificates to the local hardware store or BORG at every birthday, Christmas, anniversary etc., and pinch pennies until you have the money to drop on some fancy power tools. Hopefully by then, the LOYL will see what you can do and come to appreciate it and will be ready to put some more of the budget towards tools.

Good luck!!!

[frank shic]

+1 craigslist for used planers and jointers. you can save a lot here for some tools that were barely used. don't forget to knock at least $50-100 off the asking price when you make your inquiry.

[David Helm]

If you must use s4s try to find a "good" lumber yard that lets you pick through. Be respectful of others by leaving the stock as you found it. Prior to have my own shop all my tools were job site quality. Did lots of trim work using S4S hand picked by me. You didn't say where you are located so I can't help with possible stores.

[Russell Johnson]

I second Steve's suggestion of watching Craiglist. I purchased by 6 1/8" bench top jointer and 10" planer for $15 and $90 respectively. Both worked great other than some rust removal on the jointer. This will enable to you to purchase your lumber at a lower cost and milled to your needs. Also my local lumber dealer will mill for a fee to thickness and rip an edge which can be helpful too.

[Matt Day]

Another vote for a used planer & jointer.

If you can get S4S lumber in the wood you want (not just the crap they have at the BORG), it's likely not going to be the thickness you want and probably not as flat as you need to create furniture.

If you're only working with lumber from the BORG, you're going to have a lot of fun working with some of the other types of wood out there like walnut and maple, and seeing different types of figure and grain. It's like a whole nother dimension of ww'ing.

Edit: It should be easy to find a good used jointer and planer. Lots of times folks are upgrading and you can get some nice stuff for a fraction of what it cost new. Post your location so we know where you are, become a contributor, and check the classifieds here too.

[Neil Brooks]

Part of what I think you are hearing, and ... what you'll definitely hear from me ... is this:

S4S *IS* a guarantee that you'll spend more money than rough-sawn, skip-planed, or S2S.

It is *NOT* a guarantee that you won't have to mill the stock, yourself, when you get it home -- either because you need a different thickness, or -- probably more common -- because the boards were STILL not perfect.

Perfectly planed and jointed boards CAN still twist, warp, or bow. It's called Reaction Wood (http://woodzone.com/Merchant2/articles/reaction_wood.htm).

Meaning ... that you'll be much more versatile, and get a result that's at LEAST as good ... if you buy the right tools, and mill the stock yourself.

There are other threads, on SMC, about this subject. What lots of people say is ... like me ... they rather enjoy milling and dimensioning their own stock.

On thing to be mindful of: lower-budget jointers and planers scream like jet engines. If you live very close to your neighbors .... hand planes will make them love you more :)

[Van Huskey]

The problem I have with S4S lumber is even IF it is nice and flat when you buy it, it is unlikely to be flat once you get it home and it acclimates to your shop. I am not saying you can't build with it using some care, but it will make the job harder. Before I got a jointer and planer I built a lot of my stuff with plywood. Starting with good quality hardwood veneered plywood and a judicious use of hardwood edging and you can make a lot of very nice things and never need a jointer or planer.

[Rick Fisher]

Around here, you can get Fir, Maple or Oak in S4S.. and knotty pine..

IF you want to use a different type of wood, you have to buy rough, which means a jointer.

I love the process of milling rough stock.. Have a bunch out in the shop.. QSRO, Maple, Wenge, Padauk, Quilted Maple etc.. After you get into milling rough, you likely wont want to buy S4S ..


Having said that.. Woodworking is a journey.. you can start with S4S without any major investment..

[Rob Price]

I started with BORG lumber early on, but as you do more projects and bigger projects you will soon reap the benefits of surfacing the wood yourself. Wood magazine did a cost comparison based on BORG prices vs rough cut lumber and tools, and the tools quickly pay for themselves (if you're doing larger projects or a lot of projects). I think the break even point was around 200bf (don't hold me to that) which you can get to quickly if you're doing larger projects. I am also very picky when I pick out my rough lumber, I've been able to surface some very wide boards with my 12.5" Dewalt planer, I usually rip the boards on my TS, I only use the jointer for really twisted/warped/cupped boards, but if the rough boards are reasonably flat, I get dead flat wood from my planer if I take it slow.

Plus it just opens up all kinds of other possibilities, more exotic woods, etc. If you have a bandsaw you can resaw (and clean up on planer) and get into thinner stock for more delicate projects, veneers, etc...

I bought a bunch of rough walnut (about 70 bf) and had a friend of a friend plane it for me- he PUSHED these big boards through his old lunchbox planer with dull knives, taking big cuts at a time, and I ended up with major chipout, and the left side of the boards came out 1/16th thicker than the right. I then went to Lowes and bought my own planer. Never again...

[Cary Falk]

LIL, Not much more to add that already has not been said. My woodworking shot up a notch when I got a planer. I was also not limited to making things out of 4/4.

[scott spencer]

There sure are advantages to being able to plane and joint wood yourself. I'd start with a portable planer, then add a jointer when you can. With the help of a planer sled, a planer can flatten a board face much like a jointer does...it's more work but it does the job. Then you can edge joint with a TS or router until you can get a jointer.

[Keith Hankins]

Ok, I'll jump in here since I'm you only 25 years down the road so to speak. When I first got married way way back when we started in a one bedroom apartment and I only had a few hand me down tools from my dad a crappy 10" lowes brand tabletop saw, craftsman router and jigsaw. I worked in my dining room/kitche/familyroom area (you get the picture). I used knotty pine shelving boards because they were cheap and I could not afford anything else. I practiced my skills made some things and moved up to hardwood.

To start with find a place that will mill for you and sell it to you in the rough. Don't buy it from lowes they will rape you. You don't need a ton of equipment to work. Look on e-bay and craigslist (www.searchtempest.com (http://www.searchtempest.com)) and get a used power planer or even a #7 or #8 hand plane. I used that for a long time to flatten boards It takes a little practice and elbow grease but it will give you a good appreciation of what the old guys did. A planer (IMO) is much more significant than a jointer. Don't get me wrong you have to start with flat stock but a hand plane will give you that(get rob cosmons rough to ready dvd).

Start saving your pennies. I (in agreement with the wife) would put a small part of each paycheck away for my tool budget. It was small and I only made a purchase once a year (gives you an idea of how small it was) but over a period of three years I got most of what I really needed. A small used benchtop planer is worth its weight just on what you will save buying rough lumber. However if you are only making very small projects pay to have it milled. I think before I had my hand planes and planer they charged 15 cents a bf extra to take 4/4 to 13/16". Remember you have to leave it a tad big to let it aclamate to its surroundings when you bring it home. It will move no matter what. I've got a makita 2012 bench top model that is over 20 years old milled a lot of lumber and only replaced the blades in it. A jointer small 6" or 8" is nice addition but I did not add that for years. If nothing else buy a cheap stanly #7 or #8 and replace the blade with a good one and go to town. If it's truley a rough and you want to splurge get a scrub plane to knock the rough off first. Either way, over they years you will get your tool empire, just be patient. I know it's hard thinking back it seems like only yesterday for me.

[Larry Edgerton]

When I figure out a piece all parts are figured out using Phi in all planes, width, height and depth to the closest 1/16, so not having the ability to size stock to WHAT I WANT would be a serious drawback for me.
Rough stock is cheaper. Rough stock allows you to work it a a given length, in other words if you need a straight piece that is 33" long, you cut 36" off, joint it and plane to size. This allows you to take advantage of cupped/bowed/twisted stock that would be a problem if it was at finished size.

Besides, seeing a piece of rough show me what it has never fails to entertain me even after all of these years...

[Rob Price]

Besides, seeing a piece of rough show me what it has never fails to entertain me even after all of these years...

That's the truth, it's like opening a Christmas present when you run that rough wood through the planer and start to see the figure and grain patterns...

[Adrian Anguiano]

Screw S4S at Lowes or Home Depot. Its not straight or cheap.

You can get lumber at a lumber yard thats been planed for cheaper. Tell them you want it surfaced on 2 sides. S2S. Then you can make a jig to rip one edge straight... then make the other straight and parallel with the table saw. Search online for Ripping Jig on google.

If you dont want to mess with a jig, get S2S SLR Which means they surfaced the top and bottom, and one side has been cut straight, so the last side thats rough can be cut with the tablesaw since the other side was "SLR" (aka straight line Rip)

Once you decide you want tools get a planer. And just do the edges like i suggested with a jig.

Then lastly a jointer.

[Mike Schuch]

17 years ago I picked up my Harbor Freight jointer for ~ $129 on sale through the catalog (before the stores started to appear). I have gotten so much use out of that stupid jointer it is amazing! Worst part about it is that it is "good enough" and I haven't needed to upgrade to a nicer jointer.

It is amazing the quality of shop grade cabinets you can make out of 2 x 4 studs when you have a jointer. With a jointer any piece of scrap becomes a usable piece of stock. I have pulled weathered wood from the burn pile in a pinch. It took another 5 years before I could afford a 15" planer but in that time I was able to do pretty much what ever I wanted to with the jointer and a table saw.

With a little determination I would bet you could find a 6" jointer on CraigsList for ~ $100. I would recommend sticking with a floor model vs. a bench top model.

When I find a good price on wood I buy it... because I know I will eventually use it and I have the ability to mill it to me needs.

[ken gibbs]

So just sneak around and don't tell her what you are spending the money on. That is the way I approached this problem right up to point where she filed for a quickie divorce.

[Jeremy Greiner]

Besides the already said, already milled boards generally do not stay flat when adjusting to your shop (or aren'y completely flat when you buy them you just don't notice)

The Jet 8'' and 10'' combo jointer/planer machines are reasonably priced, after a few projects you will have saved enough money that it pays for itself. They aren't floor machine quality, but they are worth the 300-450$

Pre-Surfaced red oak from my local borg is 7.95$ a BF .. at my local woodcraft (which is also fairly high for unmmilled lumber) it's 4.20 a BF after 100 BF you've already lost 375$ .. I know 100 BF is a lot of wood, I've already used up about 40 BF of wood since I've gotten mine. Depending on how much the sawmill charges for surfacing it could pay for itself sooner than later.

-jeremy

[Greg Peterson]

The reality is that wood working is not an inexpensive pursuit. But I can think of many hobbies or regular activities that are just as expensive or more. Golf, scuba diving, parachuting, kayaking, off roading (ATV, motor bike...), hot rods...

S4S will do for some projects but will be generally limiting and relatively expensive.

When it comes to tools (of any kind), you have to pay extra to get a tool that does what you expect it to do. There are frequent good deals on Craigslist. If you can be patient and adjust your horizon, you can assemble a reasonable collection of tools for a fairly low cost.

Putting together a wood working shop is an endeavor and rarely completed, let alone accomplished in a weekend. You will likely just piece it together, filling gaps in your tool coverage as you go along.

And buy clamps. Plenty of 'em. You can never have too many.