American or Chinese made bearings for my jointer?

[scott vroom]

I purchased a Byrd Shelix cutterhead for my Griz G0490 8" jointer and want to put new bearings in when I install the newcutter head. Griz quoted me $ about $3.00 each for the 2 bearings.....sounds too good to be true. I called a local King Bearing retailer and was quoted $26 each for top quality American made bearings (National Bearing, I believe), and they also had a $14 bearing from General Bearing, which I believe is making bearings in China now. I'm inclined to spend the extra money to get the better bearing. I don't want to go cheap on a bearing that might get sloppy when I'm trying to shave 64th of an inch off the edge of a board.

Any thoughts on this?

[Josh Rudolph]

Scott,

I just installed a 20" shelix head in my planer from Grizzly. I installed the bearings that they offer. By doing the job myself, like you will be doing, I know exactly what it takes to get to the bearings and install new ones. So with that, I would give the Grizzly bearings a shot...if they don't work out, your out $6 and an hour or two to replace them. You would then have to make the investment for the other bearings. If they do work out, you saved yourself $24 - $46.

Josh

[scott vroom]

Josh, you make a good point. I opted for Chinese bearings, but not the ones Griz sells. I need the bearings by Thurs morning so I picked up a set of General Bearings locally for $14 each. They're made at General's Chinas plant; it was still cheaper that Griz + 2 day am delivery.

Somewhere there is an American bearing factory worker cringing.....:(

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I'll skip the crazy story about why my G0490 needs new bearings...but when I checked prices at McMaster Carr they were closer to $50 for one side of the cutter head and $25 for the other side! If I take the machine apart (knives out!) and remove the pillow blocks, etc. I plan to use the very best bearings I can get my hands on...this machine has taught me well the fools folly of trying to save pennies in the short run.

[Bill Bukovec]

Buy the best, you only cry once.

Bill

[scott vroom]

Matt, time will tell whether I must learn the same lesson :)

[Chip Lindley]

A pair of $3 bearings on a $300+ Shelix cutterhead seems a bit ludicrous to me! All bearings start out smooth when new. But the better materials and tolerances of a higher grade bearing shows up--later! Cheap bearings wear faster under hard conditions. IF a hobbiest uses his jointer for only an hour or two every month, that's what cost-conscious import-sellers hope for. If used under more demanding shop conditions...go figure! Personally, I would at least look for a good price on a "name-brand" bearing; Nachi, NTN, or SKF. I'd rather pay twice or three times up front, and perhaps avoid premature replacement.

Pulling and replacing bearings is no fun unless absolutely necessary! But, a bearing job on a jointer is wayy easy compared to tearing down a planer! A bearing job on a machine purchased used is to be expected. But, having to replace new bearings any time soon that I installed myself--unacceptable!

[Stephen Cherry]

a "name-brand" bearing; Nachi, NTN, or SKF. I'd rather pay twice or three times up front, and perhaps avoid premature replacement.



El correcto.

Bearings, personal flotation devices, tires,...: Places not to try to save a few bucks by skimping on quality.

Particularly in a jointer where the aim is precision.

[Mike Heidrick]

The Grizzly ones work on 99.999% of their jointers.

[Peter Quinn]

This is an interesting conversation to me for two reasons. One, I have a 15" Byrd head that I purchased from Grizzly and am getting ready to install in a DC-380 delta planer. I purchased the bearings from Grizzly after much consideration. The Delta replacements would have been almost $100, but then again, they charge $45 for a $3 quart of oil for the gear box, so price is no gauge of quality or value in my mind from Delta. I looked at several major on line bearing places that were recommended by fellow creekers, and prices in the size needed ranged from $4-$6 for basic quality sealed bearings to $325 for high precision ceramic bearings, with lots of different price points in between. Go figure. So whats a guy like me who knows nothing about bearing grades and specs to do? Go radical overkill on ceramic bearings? Stay up nights wondering if my $4 bearings are good enough? Throw a dart at a price list? The jointer was easy, I bough the head from Holbren who included the bearings, and frankly they seemed better than the ones coming off the thing, but it was fairly well used, so who knows. So do I install the head with the Grizzly bearings or spend a whopping $17 on the NSK ones on line? Still scratching my head on this one, but the popular opinion seems to be go for the upgrade.

Which leads to the second reason I find this conversation interesting. If I were to suggest that the reason Grizzly tools are cheaper is because they have been speced with lower grade components than other more expensive brands, and that while the castings may all be made in the same place this doesn't mean all of the machines are created equal, a veritable poop storm of angry loyal grizzly owner and users rises up and shows its teeth. Ok, maybe its not that dramatic, but close. I might even get a reprimand from the owner! But when asked "Would you trust these $3 chinese bearings with your Byrd head" the answer seems to be generally "NO". Granted this post is a pretty small sample set at this point, and when I asked where to get new bearings, several users did recommend getting them from Grizzly based on their personal experience, which I did. I have no answer to the question, but I have the Grizzly bearings, and based on a visual inspection they seem to be a decent product, I have no idea where they are made.

So would those recommending NOT using the $3 grizzly bearings also recommend NOT using grizzly tools? Just what sort of bearings do you imagine are in the tools to begin with? And are there any engineers out there in the group that have real specific actual knowledge of bearing grades that can make recommendations about where to source bearings appropriate for planer heads? My gut feeling is that Grizzly would not continue to sell these bearings if they had a high failure rate or very rapid disintegration, and that generally as load and precision requirement go, small woodworking planers don't require the highest grade of bearings to function well. But then again sometimes my gut tells me to eat two chili cheese dogs after a night of drinking Jameson, so its not always to b trusted!

[Brad Patch]

I purchased a Byrd Shelix cutterhead for my Griz G0490 8" jointer and want to put new bearings in when I install the newcutter head. Griz quoted me $ about $3.00 each for the 2 bearings.....sounds too good to be true. I called a local King Bearing retailer and was quoted $26 each for top quality American made bearings (National Bearing, I believe), and they also had a $14 bearing from General Bearing, which I believe is making bearings in China now. I'm inclined to spend the extra money to get the better bearing. I don't want to go cheap on a bearing that might get sloppy when I'm trying to shave 64th of an inch off the edge of a board.

Any thoughts on this?

Call Accurate Bearing Company, Addison, Ill. 1-800-323-6548. Ask for Lynn (she specilizes in small orders) She will get what you need at a good price. All the guys at oldwoodworkingmmachines.com know her and think the world of her.

[Josh Rudolph]

Peter,

Good points, but now I want two chili cheese dogs! I feel those that say no to the bearings will say no to Grizzly tools also.

I just installed Grizzly bearings back into my machine and never thought twice about it. I probably didn't need to replace the one's I had, but figured since I would have it open, I might as well replace them. Like you said, if they were having high failure rates, I am sure the customers would not tolerate it.

If they fail, it will be a bit of an inconvenience to have to tear down and reinstall new ones, but it also forces me to do a good overhaul of the machine. So it isn't all wasted time.

Josh

[keith micinski]

Cheaper bearings used for a few hours a month by hobiest's would be just fine. Spending money on high end bearings wouldn't be a waste but the worst thing for a bearing is to sit unused for months on end stationary, which is what most hobiest machines do. A higher end bearing isn't going to help that.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

Peter -- I too find this interesting and I am not in the immediate market for a Byrd head (I wish I was!). And I am not a machinist either -- truth be told I'd call myself half a woodworker.

I am going to stay away from any comments having to do with the pros and cons (pre or post purchase!!) on my decision to buy a Grizzly jointer for the very reasons you expressed. BUT, I will say that part of my purchase decision was that the apparent lack complexity of the machine itself (parallelogram beds, fence, motor, cutter head), which seemed to me to be about as simple as it gets in woodworking machinery...the form factor has not changed much in many years . That thinking was put to a tough test when I ran into some issues that could not be diagnosed or resolved via a million hours of customer support time. So, I sought out a pro. A machinist/technician who services the shop equipment at virtually all of the universities between Princeton and UPenn made a stop in my basement. I got the repair I needed, and a diagnosis of a bad bearing at the cutter-head. He gave me an education about bearings as the machine within the machine. Net net he said a poor bearing (even one that runs) will, over time, wear everything else out...motors, mounts, shafts, etc.

Value is hard to recognize...and none of us can be expert in everything. knowing that I am replacing the bearings anyway--a part I now understand to be so critical to everything else working correctly--on a machine that has already given me some grief without trying to find high quality bearings seems like cutting my nose off to spite my face. Even without a $400 replacement Byrd head I already have a $1000 invested, so what another $100?

[Greg Portland]

If I were to suggest that the reason Grizzly tools are cheaper is because they have been speced with lower grade components than other more expensive brands, and that while the castings may all be made in the same place this doesn't mean all of the machines are created equal, a veritable poop storm of angry loyal grizzly owner and users rises up and shows its teeth.The components in the "Extreme" line are significantly different than the components in their base lineup. It's kind of like comparing Dewalt to B&D. Now, I have no idea if those $3 bearings are the ones in the Extreme series or if they are a lower quality option. However, you have to imagine that Grizzly is going to get -some- price cut from the manufacturers because of the large volume of bearings that they are buying and selling.

[Matt Winterowd]

Call Accurate Bearing Company, Addison, Ill. 1-800-323-6548. Ask for Lynn (she specilizes in small orders) She will get what you need at a good price. All the guys at oldwoodworkingmmachines.com know her and think the world of her.

+100 on Accurate Bearing. Makes the discussion academic. You'll get quality bearings (usually Nachi or better) for less than you will pay for the "cheap" bearings almost anywhere else. They are a fantastic company, and Lynne is the best!

[Neil Brooks]

If I have ANYTHING apart, and I can put in better components, while I'm in there ... I pretty much ALWAYS will.

The relative cost between the ???? bearings and the "probably a lot better" bearings is high. The absolute cost, though, isn't that much, when we're thinking about what we put into our shops.

For me: no-brainer -- better bearings.

[Jon McElwain]

Replaced some seized Griz bearings on a 10" cabinet saw a few years ago with some $15 NSK bearings from Napa. Ran much better than the seized ones.:D But really, the saw sounded better than when the bearings were working well, and the time it took to put in the new ones was worth it to me to go ahead with quality replacements. BTW, the new ones lasted quite a bit longer than the OME bearings, and as far as I know, the new owner, who is pretty tough on tools is still running it!

[scott vroom]

Interesting discussion....and one that has swayed my thinking. I went to pick up the pair of $14 General bearings today and ended up walking out with a pair of $30 SKF bearings instead. I still don't know for certain that I got a better bearing (the salesman said I did ;)); I needed bearings today and I spent more money thinking I got a better bearing :D.

Bearings in hand, I'm heading out to the shop to install my new Byrd Shelix cutter!

[Bill Bukovec]

We have a small metal milling machine at work and some bearings need to be replaced.

I called Grizzly and talked to a very helpful tech.

He recommended buying bearings from someone other than Grizzly.

He lost a sale and any new business from me, but at least he was honest. On the plus side, Grizzly seems to have good customer service.

Bill

[Bob Wingard]

Here's a little info about bearing quality and what to look for ... this article is specific to skateboards, but the information is pretty generic.


* ABEC 1 is the most crude, the least precise, the most durable and the cheapest.
* ABEC 3 is what most cheap complete skateboards come with, especially skateboards from China. ABEC 3 bearings will work for most skateboarding, but won't roll very smoothly or fast.
* ABEC 5 bearings are the norm in skateboarding. You get a reasonable amount of speed, and at a reasonable cost. However, there are lots of people who argue that the skateboarding industry is lying, and that most ABEC 5 skateboard bearings you see aren't actually built to ABEC 5 standards...
* ABEC 7 bearings would be very fast and smooth, but very expensive. Plus, you start to run the risk of needlessly damaging them if you skate hard or aggressively. Also, if you are buying cheap ABEC 7 bearings made in China, you are probably being lied to (read The Truth about Skateboard Bearings.
* ABEC 9 and higher bearings would be ridiculous to use in a skateboard, unless you are doing downhill luge style skating, or something else where your goal is to go insanely fast. If you aren't spending a fortune on these bearings, then don't trust that they are in fact ABEC 9!

The ABEC rating of a bearing is determined by asking these four questions:

1. How close is the bore to 8mm in microns (a micron is one millionth of a meter)?
2. How close is the outer diameter to 22 in microns?
3. How close is the width to 7mm in microns?
4. What's the rotating accuracy in microns?

[Pete Bradley]

Most skateboard lore about bearings is flat wrong. ABEC rating by itself defines certain tolerances but has little to do with bearing quality. I strongly suspect that most of those "ABEC 9" skate bearings aren't ABEC 9, but it really doesn't matter for a skateboard.

There's no point in buying a higher ABEC rating for this application. As someone else mentioned though, name brand does matter. I don't know what a National bearing is, but I wouldn't pay a premium for it just because the box says Made in USA. I would (and do) pay a premium for NTN whether US or Japan.

With a few exceptions, even low quality bearings will work fine on day one in a moderate speed application like this. Just make sure you don't run them after they've worn out as that's when you can do real damage to your machine.

[Steve LaFara]

Call Accurate Bearing Company, Addison, Ill. 1-800-323-6548. Ask for Lynn (she specilizes in small orders) She will get what you need at a good price. All the guys at oldwoodworkingmmachines.com know her and think the world of her.

+1 more for Accurate Bearing Co.. I got bearings for my '39 Uni and '43 jointer from them and Lynn was a lot of help. Got here quick, a lot less $$ than Delta and have worked great for 3 years now.

[Jerry Bruette]

I'll agree with Pete an ABEC rating above 1 isn't needed, the bearings are going in a wood planer not a precision high speed metal cutting machine that has to hold tolerences of plus or minus .001.

Scott you did good with the SKF bearings. Make sure you install them properly. The quality of a bearing doesn't mean anything if it's not treated right and installed properly. By the way was the country of manufacture stamped on those SKF's?

Jerry

[Ronald Blue]

My two cents worth here. I used to work as a tool and die maker at NTN-BOWER and know more then most about bearing design and manufacture then most. The one thing that you can count on is that the main stream bearing manufacturers do life cycle testing and are always striving to increase that. That said the quality is going to be roughly the same across the board on these common brands and interchange without issue. The bottom line here is you are milling wood, if the finish is good after a pass over the cutter head then you are probably fine with the Grizzly bearings. There isn't a lot to shake apart and keep in mind that the drive belt can also be a source of vibration.

[Brian Ross]

I think we have to get over thinking that made in China means inferior quality. When it comes to electrical components I think you are are pressed to find a TV that is not made in China. Bearings have a few simple components when compared to the intracies of a 55 inch flat screen or the computers that we all use to surf the web. there is no doubt that any country is capable of producing junk but I also believes that some of this junk arrives on our shores due specifications that the importer specified to keep his costs down. Just an opinion and worth what you paid for it.

PS years ago I bought a DJ 20 (delta ) jointer and was devastated when I got it home and discovered it was made in China. Contemplated taking it back but decided to give it a try. Ten years later sold it when I upgraded to a 12 inch. It ran flawlessly for the 10 years that I owned it

Brian

[Kevin W Johnson]

But that jointer that you buy now is not the same quality that you bought years ago. Theres a way they get the price cheaper and KEEP the price cheap, and its usually a degradation in material quality. ie., Thats how you can still buy a $15 faucet to replace that $15 faucet you bought 15 years ago. Just don't expect the new one to last as long as the old one.

I recently read an article about a bench grinder that is commonly sold in various stores under various names at a price point of about $50. The cost of that grinder when it hits our shore is a few cents over $7. Seriously, $7, to manufacture, AND get it here.

Bottom line the Chinese have figured out the average US consumer. They have created the mind set that a $25 drill is expected to only last a short time, and that we're "ok" with that, because its cheap to replace when it does. This keeps them busy, and we don't think twice about it. And sadly, most people if given the option of buying one drill for $100, that would last 25 years, or buying a $25 drill that would last 5 years each, they'd still opt for the $25 drill, because the initial cost is lower.

[Mike Cutler]

Interesting discussion....and one that has swayed my thinking. I went to pick up the pair of $14 General bearings today and ended up walking out with a pair of $30 SKF bearings instead. I still don't know for certain that I got a better bearing (the salesman said I did ;)); I needed bearings today and I spent more money thinking I got a better bearing :D.

Bearings in hand, I'm heading out to the shop to install my new Byrd Shelix cutter!

You ended up with a "better bearing set". No worries there. SKF is known the world over for quality bearings of all types.
You may never be able to quantify the quality difference, and that's what will tell you that you installed better bearings.

[Peter Quinn]

So, I'm cleaning up the crate from the Byrd head I installed in my old DC-380 15" planer (not the most fun i ever had) and I grabbed the box the bearings came in to file the invoice. I decided to use the bearings Grizzly supplied, and hadn't paid it much though since. Well, my bearings were on a separate invoice, $4 each, and labeled MADE IN USA! Not sure that is a guarantee of quality, but at least they are not cheap Chinese bearings, they are cheap American made bearings. Perhaps Shiraz is simply doing the Byrd Head buyer a solid and passing along the necessary bearings at no mark up? In any event, I thought I'd pass this info along for the record. Oh, and the Byrd head spins well on its new bearings. Why didn't I do this years ago?

[Mike Bensema]

I used to manage the industrial services group of a major bearing manufacturer and presently work in the equipment reliability field. I think I can offer some information that would be helpful to the group.

There is a difference in bearing quality between the major manufacturers, SKF, FAG, Timken, etc and the Chinese bearings, but the average hobbyist will not see the difference in the lifetime of the machine, an industrial environment is a different story. The big difference is the steel used in the manufacture of the rings and rolling elements, heat treating procedures, as well as the final grinding/lapping of the races. The quality brands use a very high quality steel that has less inclusions and contaminants then more standard grades of steel and not every mill can produce this. The bearing rings and rolling elements are also hardened for long life with proprietary processes and the quality steels are better in this area as well. The quality of the steel has a lot to do with how long the bearing will last, but the number one reason bearings fail is lubrication problems. In the case of sealed and shielded bearings, the grease in the bearing can become hard from the volitile content of the grease evaporating over time and the grease will no longer function as it should, the bearing is scrap at this point. Any brand bearing will do this, so the high priced SKF or FAG bearings will have a limit to how long they will work just like the Chinese bearings. At my plant we will only use SKF, FAG or Timken bearings, regardless of which country they are made in, since a bearing failure can easily cost us $20,000 and the lower quality bearings do not have the same life as these brands. NTN and NSK are good bearings, just not up to the same level as SKF and FAG in my experience.

We always had a good laugh at the skateboarders and their insistance on using "ABEC 7" bearings on their boards. Each bearing would cost more then the entire board if they were really using ABEC 7 bearings. ABEC 1 bearing are the standard in industry for motor, centrifuges, fans, blowers, etc. In the production plant I work in now, not a single bearing out of the hundreds of different sizes we use is a tolerance class above ABEC 1. The running accuracy of these bearings is just fine for anything other then precision applications like metalworking, gas turbines, etc. The cost of an ABEC 7 bearing is in the range of 5-10x the cost of the same size ABEC 1 bearing, so nobody is going to spend the extra money in industry unless it is going to offer a measureable improvement. Precision metalworking needs the tighter tolerances of ABEC 7 and 9 bearings since they work to 0.0001" tolerances that the ABEC 1 bearings are not capable of.

Ceramic bearings are meant for high speed applications like grinding spindles, milling machine spindles, etc that run over 10,000 rpm and need the ceramic rolling elements to allow for low quantity lubrication necessary at those speeds and bearing sizes. A complete waste of money on any low speed application found in a woodworking shop.

Having said all of that, the Chinese branded bearings will most likely last the lifetime of the equipment, but there is a higher chance of something happening with them due to the lower quality of the manufacture. For that reason, I will pay the extra for the top quality brands since the labor to install the bearings justifies the higher expense. Bearings made by the major brands in China are just as good quality as those made at any of their other plants, so that should not be a reason to exclude them. One important caution, there are a lot of counterfiet bearings being sold worldwide, estimated to be 10% of the bearing market, and you should only purchase through authorized distributors to ensure you are getting the quality you are paying for.