What type of chisels are these??

[Shawn Swafford]

I have a pair of Keen Kutter chisels in sizes 5/8 and 7/8. The blades are 9 inches long from blade tip to end of socket. Are these paring chisels or just long bench chisels? I am in the process of refinishing them. After they are done I am going to turn new handles for them out of cocobolo. I am going to try to post a photo so hopefully it will show up.

Thanks,
Shawn

[Shawn Swafford]

Wow...that's a little bigger picture than I intended. :confused:

[Jim Dunn]

What name if any is on the blade? Can't tell if that's a name or a stain in the metal.

[Shawn Swafford]

I'm computer challenged so I am just amazed they showed up :D

[Jerry Crawford]

They look like TH Witherby chisels. Take a look at the one i just modified a couple fo postings down on modifying an old tool for a new job. Looks the same to me

[Bob Smalser]

Sure look like paring chisels to me...shallow <20 degree bevels and very long and very, very thin. A finer variation of the beveled edge bench chisel...compare them with modern Sorby long parers to see what I mean. Nice chisels.

Simmons was a hardware jobber, not a manufacturer, so they very well could be Witherby, which was one of the top two or three makers of their day.

[Roy Wall]

They look like Firmer chisels to me.....

Move the camera away till it will focus and reshoot....

[Shawn Swafford]

I revised the photo. Hopefully they can be seen clearer now. Plus they are smaller! The bottom chisel is almost done with the metal work. The top one still needs polished and flattened.

Shawn

[Marc Hills]

I say those look like paring chisels. Definitely not firmer chisels; they're too delicate and besides, I've never encountered firmer chisels with beveled edges.

[Shawn Swafford]

Jim,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I just now saw your post. The stamp on the blade is Keen Kutter. That is what you are seeing by the socket.

Shawn

[Roy Wall]

This is why I said they look like firming chisels.....

http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/henry_taylor_firming.htm

[Bob Smalser]

That's OK....I'm an old hand at this and I still get confused by chisels, too sometimes.

Beveled sides have nothing to do with whether the chisel was designed as a parer, firmer or all-purpose bench chisel. All the beveled sides do are reach into corners well at the expense of some strength, and most butt and some of the larger framing and mortise chisels also have beveled sides to one degree or another for the same purpose. Firmers have thicker blades than most bench chisels and steeper bevels favoring chopping as opposed to paring....and parers the converse, of course. "Bench chisels (often called "beveled-edge" or "cabinet" chisels) are the compromise between the two. Most true firmers tended to have straight sides...but hardly all of them.

Handles have nothing to do with it, either. Socket handles are merely traditional and were used for many light-duty chisels that didn't need their strength simply because buyers back then demanded them. I have a few Witherby and other old parers just like the above with socket handles:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/79872497.jpg

Socket handles were preferred in preceding eras because work didn’t have to stop when the handle broke; the tradesman simply pounded the socket instead until he could replace the handle on his own time. That wasn’t as mortal of a sin then as it is today, because we tend to forget that these men were working more for their daily bread than love of craft, were often paid by the piece instead of the hour, and finishing the job after hours was problematic in the expensive and poor lighting before electricity was common - and in many rural areas, that wasn’t until the late 1930’s.

Many of those modern bench and mortise chisels that look like they have traditional sockets really don’t – cut the handles off and you’ll see they are merely tang chisels with a “socket” appearance.

[Bob Smalser]

Here's an example more obvious in larger sizes...but still subtle:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/80534568.jpg

Left to Right: A Gillespie straight-sided firmer, A Greenlee beveled-edge parer, A PEXTO beveled-edge bench and a Sargent straight-sided firmer.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5090019/80534572.jpg

It's obvious how much thinner the Greenlee is from the others. Whether the PEXTO on it's right was sold as a "firmer", "bench" or "cabinet" chisel is arguable and you'd have to compare it with their other offerings of the era. It's not quite as thick as the other firmers.

Is any of this important? The difference in bevels and function are, for sure, the rest of it is just arcane trivia. They all can pare, and they all can chop....it only depends on the bevel you grind.

[Shawn Swafford]

Bob, thank you for the posts and photos. They were very informative.

Shawn

[Bob Smalser]

Most modern confusion comes from variations in what manufacturers and vendors call them....and there is a whole lot of variance.

Chisels are traditionally labeled by function, not shape, yet what L/V, Two Cherries, Hirsch and Marples markets or makes as a "bevel-edged" chisel is called a "bench" chisel by Ashley Iles, Sorby, Footprint and others.

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/ProductImages/chisels/049720.jpg

And what has been called a "registered" or "shipwright" mortise chisel (above) by trade guilds in Europe for generations is now being called a "heavy duty sash mortise chisel" by Sorby and others.

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/ProductImages/chisels/041725.jpg

That's kinda odd, because a "sash" mortise chisel is for light duty use. “Sash” comes from window construction with small, shallow mortises, and there is some confusion describing medium length and long length mortise chisels as real window factories used the longer millwright chisels but the medium ones like the Sorby designs above are usually called sash chisels – “sash” in this usage and unhooped handles meaning they are for relatively light work.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3442941/68580316.jpg

The real head scratcher is the "millwright mortise chisel" made for all-day, every-day heavy striking doing piece work in factories, here shown with Japanese mortise chisels for size comparison. They look like "framing" chisels, and that's what most people call them. But timber frames in buildings and ships used much larger mortises than the one eighth thru one-inch these are found in, and they were made for production work to supplement (or substitute for, in smaller operations) the old chain mortisers in window and millwork factories.

They are uniquely American mortise chisels, very expensively made, and are by far the most powerful ones ever made. Buy one on Ebay and try it out to see for yourself. They were also also common in shipyards for mortise work in difficult tropical hardwood, but haven't been made since WWII and are largely forgotten.

When American standard-bearer L/N decided to make mortise chisels and chose the relatively wimpy Sorby "sash" design....albeit with stronger construction....instead of these All-American brutes, my uncle, grandfather and thousands of other tradesmen of the early 1900's well familiar with these all probably rolled over in their graves.

[Jerry Crawford]

Bob, you must have on heck of a collection. I'm impressed

[Phill LeBlanc]

The more I study and learn, the more the name Bob Smalser crops up. The depth and breadth of your knowledge make me wonder where you found the time to use these tools. That said -- this is the chisel I'm studying tonight:
346620

it's a 1/2" firmer chisel stamped: "FINEST CRUCIBLE - SUPREME GERMANY IN A DIAMOND-SHAPED LOGO - AND CAST STEEL" - it was owned by a man who valued fine tools, but I have not been able to discover details of it's origin or age or reputation. If anyone knows, I figure it would be you. Thanks for whatever light you can shed.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Phill and welcome to the Creek. I am always curious as to where folks call home. Your profile doesn't indicate your location.

Bob Smalser has posted a lot of good information.

Here is a link to where a lot of his and others have articles archived:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

It is listed in the Neanderthal Sticky Threads at the top of the conference.

jtk