drop leaf table joints?

[Andy Hsieh]

does anyone know the plane set I should be looking for to accomplish the joint between the leaf and the main table top? I know there is a specific name and it is not just a h&r - anyone recall?

thanks
Andy

[Jonathan McCullough]

I think that may be called a thumbnail pattern, but check out Matt Bickford's informative blog, musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.com

I'm pretty sure you could accomplish that with a rabbet and a matching hollow/round set.

[greg Forster]

rule joint planes- come as a pr and pretty pricey

[Andrae Covington]

rule joint planes- come as a pr and pretty pricey

TheBestThings (http://thebestthings.com/molding.htm) currently has a 1/2" set made by J.T. Jones, Phila. for $199. There's a photo so you can see what they look like.

If you really wanted to spend some money, you could take the Rule Joint Planes & Dropleaf Table class with Bill Anderson (http://www.woodwrightschool.com/make-rule-joint-planes-w-bill/) at the Woodwright School. "First you make the tools, then you make the furniture". Sounds like fun.

[Andy Hsieh]

thanks for the responses. yikes - $$$$ although I fail to see why the price us so much higher than some detailed ogee molders. I will reach out to Matt or Philly and see if they can make them. at least if the price is gonna be high - it would be new and require no fettling to use em :)

on the other hand, I could go the ....tailed route

[Rob Young]

Fine Woodworking #18 has an article on making a rule joint. #45 as rabbet plane along with a scratch stock to form the rest of the joint. Author was Alasdair G.B. Wallace.

[Pam Niedermayer]

thanks for the responses. yikes - $$$$ although I fail to see why the price us so much higher than some detailed ogee molders. ...

Go here (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?category=Wooden%20planes), look down the page for "table," and buy quickly. If you don't want them, let me know.

Pam

[Andy Hsieh]

Go here (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?category=Wooden%20planes), look down the page for "table," and buy quickly. If you don't want them, let me know.

Pam

thanks Pam - sent email to tony to purchase - I'll let ya know
how it goes :)

[greg Forster]

I'll post some photos of rule joint planes later today

[Rick Erickson]

That was a very nice gesture Pam!


Go here (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?category=Wooden%20planes), look down the page for "table," and buy quickly. If you don't want them, let me know.

Pam

[David Keller NC]

thanks for the responses. yikes - $$$$ although I fail to see why the price us so much higher than some detailed ogee molders.

The reason has to do with rarity. Rule joint planes are cabinetmaker's tools, and they're far less common than joiner's tools. Also, because these planes are made to work in pairs, they are often separated during their history and mis-matched makers rarely function correctly, matched sets that started life together and remain a pair bring a lot more money than the individual planes or ones that are "almost matches".

[Martin Cash]

Go here (http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/toolbox.php?category=Wooden%20planes), look down the page for "table," and buy quickly. If you don't want them, let me know.

Pam
It is important in considering these planes that the two are a matched set.
It is quite hard to match up two planes from different backgrounds.
These two look a little mis-matched to me, but it might just be the photo.
The cove plane seems to have a different radius to the half-round.
They also do appear to be from different makers.
I would be interested to see how they work out.
Good luck with the purchase.
MC

[greg Forster]

First, I need to correct myself. In 19thc tool catalogs(American), these planes are listed as "table planes" and not rule joint planes - the terminology I used in my earlier post.
These were sold as a pr and sometimes included a gage. I don't know how they are named in English tool catalogs or in the 18thc in general.

The first pair are Ohio Tool company, 5/8" boxed table planes. I bought these years ago off Ebay, described as "H&R pr"; I haven't tried them.
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The next pair are a "married" set, which I bought separate. I have several more singles in search of a mate. You can usually recognize a table plane, even from a photo. The H is Casey&Co, Auburn, NY, circa 1857 (Casey contracted with NY prisons for plane manufacture) This plane is at cabinet pitch, stamped "5/8" and is a bonafide table plane. The R is marked "?"zb ( too worn to identify), but guessing English, early 1800s, but at common pitch. This plane may have started as a common Round, but the "5/8" stamp makes me wonder. This pair of planes I have used for table joints and they work pretty well.
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The last pr are by Holbrook (English- early 1800s) and are very nice. These I bought about 25 years ago at auction. They are stamped "1" ,are at cabinet pitch and will cut about 3/8" - a rather small table joint. I'm curious where this would be used, although English Regency Period furniture ( Federal Period in America) could be quite delicate. Notice on the heel, the lines to reference the plane to the work piece. These marks are often seen on early 19thc table planes. I included a #10 R plane in the photos, also at cabinet pitch, to give a sense of scale. These are collector quality planes, so I won't be using them.
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[Frank Drew]

Making the joints is one thing, proper placement of the table hinges another.

I've always heard and used the term rule joint for this kind of drop leaf table joint.

[Andy Hsieh]

Thanks Everyone - I have not heard back from Tony yet - but I'll let you know how it works out. I too saw that the planes were different wood types and makers - I will have to see what tony says about that.

With all the drop leaf tables that I see in antique stores, I am astounded there are not more of these planes out there in the wild. I read online that some rule joint planes were single planes - run it one direction to make one side and flip it around to make the other. There are many different ways to make these joints but I think that finding a pair of these specific planes will make the job simpler - one of those tools that you don;t use very often but when you need it - you sure are glad it's there.

Thanks Greg for posting those pictures - you got any action shots on scrap wood or something to show what type of product those planes can accomplish?

[greg Forster]

I'll try and run something this weekend

[Pam Niedermayer]

... There are many different ways to make these joints but I think that finding a pair of these specific planes will make the job simpler - one of those tools that you don;t use very often but when you need it - you sure are glad it's there....

Based on the big drop leaf table I have, I'd say that there are ways to easily make these joints with rebates, hollows, and rounds; but it looks a bit tricky to get the angles right.

Pam

[Don McConnell]

Pam et al,

Rule joints can, absolutely, be accomplished with a rebate/rabbet plane or two and a pair of hollows & rounds. And, yes, it can be a bit tricky, but the key is understanding the geometry and careful layout and execution.

One really needs to have the appropriately sized hinges on hand before starting. Most of the current ones I've seen are made so that the pivot point (center of the pin) is 1/8 inch from the bottom surface of the table top and leaf, but it's best not to assume this.

In any event, it is essential that the layout for both parts is done from the bottom surface (a case where the reference face is not the show face). And the truly critical aspect to the layout is to get the lateral placement and depth of the hinge knuckle (and pin) accurately determined. This is determined by the radius of the quarter-round (plus) and cove to be created; which, in turn, is determined by the thickness of your material and the width of the fillet/sinking you wish to have above the quarter-round/cove. As I've already indicated, the depth of the pivot point is determined by the center of the pin when the hinge is set flush (taken at the knuckle) with the bottom surfaces of each piece. It is best, of course, to coordinate the radius of these elements with the radius of the arc of the hollow and round pair you plan to use.

From there on, it is mostly a matter of careful execution. Suggestions concerning "cheating" the placement of the hinge on the leaf to provide a little extra margin of error abound, and that comes down to a matter of judgment. However, I am concerned that it is possible to overdo this, leaving an unnecessarily large gap whether the leaf is up or down. My approach has been to determine the position of the hinge on the leaf after temporarily attaching the hinge to the table top and placing a business card between the fillets of both pieces. This provides a few thousandth's clearance while transferring the layout.

I'd like to add a few more thoughts, but really need to go now.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Pam Niedermayer]

... I'd like to add a few more thoughts, but really need to go now.

Don, I'd love to hear some more thoughts when/if you have time.

Pam

[Don McConnell]

Pam et al,

Actually, I think I hit most of the main points in my last post, but knew there were a few secondary points that I would like to have added if I'd have the time. Will give it a try, now.

In my previous post, I hinted at the fact that the convex portion of the rule joint actually includes a little more than a true quarter round. I think this is worth emphasizing, because many drawings are inaccurate or unclear on this point. The arc of the quarter round needs to continue beyond the level of the pivot point (usually about 1/8 inch from the bottom surface) so that the cove portion on the leaf can rotate around the pivot point, when the leaf is lowered, without binding. Some drawings show a flat from this point on or are on such a small scale that it isn't clear that the arc continues beyond 90 degrees on down to the lower surface of the table top. Charles Hayward covers this point fairly clearly in some of his writings (if I were home, I'd give specific citations).

One other quick point on layout regarding the pivot point. When I mentioned the "lateral" position of the hinge knuckle and pin, I was intending to refer to the distance of the pin from the edge of the table top. And, possibly needless to say, the gauge line for the sinking/fillet should then be struck at the same distance from the edge as the center of the pin.

Another aspect is that I'm not entirely sure there is any great advantage, for most people today, in owning dedicated table (rule joint) planes. Especially the fenced versions.

One main difference between unfenced table planes and regular H&R's is that the former define more of an arc of the circumference of a circle. Regular H&R's typically define about 60 degrees of the circumference of a circle, while table planes define closer to 90 degrees. Another difference is that table planes usually are beveled on both sides so that the profile/sole is more centered in the stock/body of the plane. These differences likely impart a slight advantage, but regular H&R's will adequately do the job and are generally available in a larger range of sizes. Additionally, the 60 degree arc of their profiles will have a slightly better cutting geometry than the table planes. Either type need to have their profiles nearly perfectly matched in order to most directly achieve acceptable results.

We experimented with making some fenced table planes, and were able to get quite acceptable results. But, that experience left me feeling that maintaining them, so that they continued to give good results, would likely require a fairly high level of skill. Also, their cutting geometry as far from ideal. In which case, I found myself thinking it would be a good thing if users of these planes also had good working H&R's of the right size to make minor corrections, etc. This left me wondering whether fenced table planes imparted any real advantage. After all, even if they are perfectly maintained and working well, the success of the rule joint is still largely dependent on accurately positioning and installing the hinges. Which is why some plane makers offered gauges as an adjunct to their table planes.

If one were working in the trade and making the same rule joint in table tops of the same thickness on a regular basis, then I can understand that owning a pair, or two, of table planes would be a real advantage. In that light, someone, today, who envisions making the same rule joint repeatedly, might be well served to seek some table planes out. For anyone else, an appropriately sized pair of H&R's and a rebate/rabbet plane, or two, will serve very nicely - assuming the geometry and layout are clearly understood and accurately executed.

Hope that helps, somewhat. And I really need to get going ... again.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
(temporarily in Athens, OH)

[Pam Niedermayer]

Very good info, Don, at least gives us hints as to what to look out for in designing these joints.

Pam

[Andy Hsieh]

THANK YOU for all that information. You have made me rethink how I am going to properly execute this joint much more.

I am still chewing on some of the information and will most likely gave some questions as I go.

thanks again
andy

[Frank Drew]

It would be wise to run some extra stock of both sides of the joint to do some practice hinge setting.