piercing question

[Michelle Rich]

Does one really need the 400,000 rpm air tool, and a compressor to do piercing? Or are there cheaper ways to go about this? I am fascinated by the pieces I am seeing lately, and might like to try it. I see in Packard Woodworks catalog, they have 2 drill bit type units that go in a dremel, that spin at 35,000. any hope for this, or will the piercing take forever & not be clean at this speed? Thanks

[John Keeton]

Glad to see this thread posted!! I just spoke with my dentist about getting a used drill, etc. He likes to work on auto restoration, and I knew he did some detail work using his office equipment. He says that the dental drills require a very good dryer/filtration system (about $1500!) to keep moisture out of the bearings. Even the slightest bit of moisture will fry the bearings. Seems like a lot of added cost (used drills aren't cheap either!)

I have a Dremel, and while I have not done any piercings, I have used it for a variety of other tasks. I suspect with a better assortment of bits, it might do better, but control is a real issue with the one I have. I should add that I also have the flexible shaft with it.

I look forward to following this one! Thanks, Michelle.

[Norm Zax]

Dremel turns at around 30K rpm but pneumatic systems go up to 100K and higher (NSK has a 400k model). The main three advantages are: the ultra high speed prevents the tip from following the grain; the handheld piece is small; and the turbine lasts quite a long time. An adequate filter will cost around 50usd but the bits can become expensive. A cheap system will cost 200 usd. A foot switch is a convenient addition.
Disadvantages are: initial high cost; and strength is relatively weak so requires thin turning.
The compressor should provide 4 CFM at 40-45 psi. Dont forget a pressure regulator (you can easily damage the turbine with excess pressure) and an air filter. Some models require oil lubrication.

[Michelle Rich]

I have seen the system at Brian McEvoy's website. Very pricey. I have no air compressor , so all this would be quite an investment. I'm just wondering if anyone here has used the 35,000rpm dremel and the bits from packard and had any good luck with it. Maybe wood type makes a differnce. Less grainy wood, say basswood,poplar, or such. I'm not even sure I have the artistic ability to do the "art' of the piercing. I did not want to invest so much $$$ to learn how bad I could be:eek: at this!! Thanks for the info so far. Appreciate it

[Bernie Weishapl]

Michelle I have been thinking about piercing for a while now after seeing Brians an other turners pieces. I bought his DVD on embellishments and you are right it is a pricey system. Especially if it is going to be a now and then thing. I think if one was going to pierce say on 90% of the pieces they turn it might be worth the cost but for a hobbiest in which it might get used not that frequently the cost I think makes it out of my reach anyway. One of the keys to piercing that I have learned from talking with those that do is the turning where the piercing will take place needs to be thin. Most I have talked with say the wood really needs to be no more than 1/16" thick. Some said slightly less that 1/8". The other thing is that when piercing with a dental type tool is that it burns the inside of the piercing which also makes it stand out. Don't know if a dremel would do that.

[Cathy Schaewe]

I know the new high-speed systems can be expensive, but I got one (a powercarver, I think) on the bay for about 120, and got a bunch of different bits (autoclaved) from a friend who works at a dental office. I've hooked it up to my compresser a couple times just to fiddle, but I know I need a pressure regulator (which I haven't researched and thus don't know what I need yet), so I haven't done much. I have a couple pieces set aside that I know I want to try when I get it together. All of that to say that you can get a used piece for less.
I also have a die grinder with flexible shaft. It came with some tiny, tiny bits (I think it was a jewelers' kit). I got it on the bay for about 85 bucks. Thus far, (and take this with a mountain of salt, given my absolutely no experience), I can't tell the difference in the end result between the two setups, except that the hi-speed goes through faster.
My .02, which is worth even less than that!

[Michelle Rich]

Thanks Cathy, Bernie & Zak...I also see in Packard a Micro-pro that turns 46,000. That's a step up of 11,000 rpm. It's under 300.00 and no compressor. Hmmm...I hate noise, and compressor noise especially, so I'm trying to avoid that plus the very expensive cost to see if I even like doing it. I may hate it! Can I even turn a piece 1/16 thick over a large hollowform? Even in two pieces? I may be able to do negative space open pieces, but that is a different kettle of fish.

[Curt Fuller]

I'm looking forward to hearing your review Michelle. I'm in the same boat, hate the noise and don't want to mortgage one of the kids to see if I would like it. I've tried a very small amount of piercing using a dremel and just the bits that came in the kit. My results were less than impressive. I think you've hit on most of the concerns I have.

[Art Kelly]

For anyone thinking about getting a compressor to run some of these things, here's my experience: It takes a good-size compressor if you're going to run high speed.

I have this Sioux pencil grinder,

177248

and this air compressor,

177249

which can't keep up with the Sioux for more than a couple of minutes at 70,000 RPM.

The Sioux takes 21 CFM at 70,000.:eek:

[Tom Hamilton]

Michelle, thanks for asking the question.

Following my casual question to a dentist friend, my wife got me a Buffalo Dental Co. high speed hand piece, with filter, regulator and foot control for Christmas. It sits on the bench awaiting some fittings and instructions. I'll report in when it's operational.

On the Dremel question I was not successful using it for piercing or signing pieces. It wants to follow the grain or lead the hand in the direction of rotation.

[Cecil Walborn]

Michelle I have done some pierce carving. The turbo carver I got was from a wood carver supply. It came with a foot pressure control, pressure gauge and diamond bits. The diamond bits are form glass and metal. To carver wood you need carbide bits they are about $2.50 each. The carver was about $250. I did not want to spend a lot for the best till I was sure if I wanted to do more. This one does not need oil for the bearing as some of the higher priced ones do. It runs at about 400,000 rpm's. I had the compressor already. It takes about 25 psi to run but a lot of air volume. They make compressors for this kind of tool that are quite but are expensive. I used ear muffs when carving. Looking all over the internet of the pros and cons before you buy and read all you can about the carving. The pieces the I have done sell very well.

[Steve Mawson]

I have a dremel type tool but as others have said control is tough. I also have a SCM System high speed carver. This tool is like a Powercrafter, top speed 350-400,000 rpm, though a little cheaper. Don't know if a Powercrafter has more torque or not. I already had a compressor with regulator but it is loud, sometimes I use more hose and get it away from where I am working. I bought a small water trap-filter but not the expensive kind that John was talking about. I do always put a few drops of oil in the air line before I use it. I have used it quite a bit to sign pieces. Piercing is a little tougher. This tool has lots of speed but not much torque and bogs down quickly if you try to go too fast, instructions say no more than 45 psi to operate. As mentioned thin will be a requirement but results can be pretty dramatic. A member of our turning club has made some really nice pieces. My dentist gave me some used bits and they work fine. There are also all kinds of bits from the carver company. Probably rambled long enough, hope that helps.

[Michelle Rich]

thaks Steve & Cecil I went to woodcarver's supply as Cecil suggested. they have a 450,000 rpm carver unit & a compressor combo for $595.00 Looks to be very small in the picture next to the dollar bill. Anyone have this, or is it only for intermitant use? (hobby)

[Ryan Baker]

I have done a number of pierced turnings up to as much as 1/8" thick with a Dremel. It does work. It is harder and slower than with a turbine system. It does not burn the sides of the cutouts like a high-speed tool, which could be either an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your perspective. It doesn't plunge very well. I find it easier to drill holes first, then use the Dremel to cut out the rest. That is using the turbine-style cutters, not the largely-unsuitable Dremel cutters.

The bottom line is that an air-turbine system is better, but very expensive. If you are only going to do a little piercing now and then, the Dremel path will get the job done just fine, albeit more slowly. Keep the pieces thin and it is much easier.

[Bob Bergstrom]

As has been stated the Demel will get the job done if you are just doing piercing. The problem comes in when you start to extend the piercing to more than a boring technique. The first bowl was done with a Dremel, equiped with ball shaped bits.
I used masking tape on the inside to minimize breakout. The slower rpm can cause this problem. The toque problem will be come evident if you try to elongate the holes. I have a dental drill given to me by a friend. He also gave me a can of lubricant called KaVo Spray. It has an adapter that allows me to just spray it into the back of the dental tool before using it. The dental drill has very little toque problems, but lack the power makes removal of wood hard if the bowl is thicker than 1/8th". The second bowl was done with a dental drill.I have also used a NSK and it has no toque problems and has the power to do more opening of negative space.

[Harry Robinette]

Michelle
I've done a little piercing,I've tried Dremel,Foredom and dental drill ,by far the easiest is the dental drill it doesn't follow the grain like the others and it's so high speed that it's much easier to maneuver in the wood.The wood still has to be very thin,I was trying to do work like Frank Sudal was doing.I built a hollower like his and it works great so on I went to piercing and it didn't work well, you MUST have a steady hand and an EYE FOR WEAR the piercing is going. I hope you have better luke then I did.Compressors can be quieted with a insulated box with a sound trap and a small fan.Hope this helps.
Harry

[Norm Zax]

One more remark, this time about the drill bits. The system a good friend of mine uses (and he has pierced dozens of pieces) is a dentist's one but the bits are from the printed circuit boards industry. They use these to drill holes for the elements inserted and then soldered to the board. Sizes vary from 1 - 2.5 mm and they use 2 or three different head shapes. No ball shaped heads but these are not needed. The bits are expensive but the trick lies here: the PCB manufacturers DO NOT SHARPEN bits so if you know the right person, you can buy them at a fraction of a cost. For 1/8 thick wood, these are just fine!

[Michelle Rich]

Great info, Bob. Appreciate it. I find the bowl with the round holes very attractive, and worth doing with simple tools. (I've decorated platters with chainsaw files, so you know I like simple tools!) The second bowl is grand too. My sticking point is $$ and then more $$ to silence the compressor. I live in a VERY cold climate and can't imagine building an insulated box to withstand 40 below zero, just so I can muffle the noise. The cheapest I can figure is a tad below 700.00 to get in the game. (new stuff) . That's big $$ to gamble I will like & be able to master the process.

[Michelle Rich]

Thanks Norm. Good info

[Charles Drake]

Hi Michelle-all I can do is give you my experience with piercing. First tried the dremel but not very satisfactory. Being sort of cheap, I purchased a dental drill on ebay (chinese and I think it cost about $40)-then bought a regulator for about $20-got some dental bits from my dentist. I used my air compressor and put on a simple sintered metal filter (but nothing special to remove moisture). To date, I've pierced perhaps 10 pieces with good success. Only thing to be careful with is the drill has to be occasionally oiled with a drop of two of oil--when first starting up after oiling, best not to do piercing for a minute or two so oild doesn't contaminate work. The only thing I would say is the handpiece at 90 degrees to the work is a little more awkward than if the tool were straight like a pencil. If one had the air compressor, he could easily be ready to pierce for less than $100. Good luck. Charlie

[Peter Hay in Aus]

Michelle,
I bought an NSK Presto11 from info@jewelrysup.com got the best price from them 335.00 from memory. They sent it to me freight free. Tip Dental Repair Techs get oilless compressors, air control Foot type etc in the course of installing new gear. Also have a look at Craft Supplies USA NSK Presto high Speed Carver same thing.
Air consumption is 1.41 cfm at around 30 psi.It uses 1.6 mm or I think 1/8th of an inch dental drills. If you do go down this path I can give you details where to buy brand new drills of various end shapes for 5.00 for 10 of. I bought 490 of them a lot of them were diamond the rest carborundum. This NSK unit is only around 4 inches long vibration virtually free, runs around 350000 rpm has dry bearings is driven by air impeller inside the handle replacements of these around 120 dollars. There is a guy in Arizona who pro uses one to acheive pierced hollow forms that fetch thousands per item also retails the Presto tool etc his price is nearer 400.00 for the handpiece. UTube has video using this unit.

Kind regards Peter.

[Peter Hay in Aus]

Michelle,

Back again go to www.jpaulfennell.com/tools.html he came to Canberra here in Australia and demod the Presto he is an agent for them and drills his site will impress you. He is a former space scientist now full time demonstrator maker of pierced and fluted masterpieces.

[Dan Hintz]

Try this:
http://www.jpaulfennell.com/Tools.html

The capital 'T' in "Tools" makes all of the difference with his site...