Duo Saw Vise

[Acharya Kumarswami]

Marv Werner has suggested that I share some photos of the duo saw vise that he and I designed together and I put together in the shop here in Hawaii. It consists of a pair of 3D vises. Over the past 6 years or so, Marv graciously guided me, by e-mail, into the world of saw sharpening and restoration. It all started then, wanting to know what a really sharp saw was like, I purchased a saw from Marv. At the time I was determined, that if I was going to use hand saws, I would also learn to sharpen them myself. Marv wrote, "if you ever need help learning to sharpen, let me know." Thus it began, and we must have exchanged hundreds of e-mails. He cheered me on with each offering I put up on eBay as I refined the selection of saws to keep for our shop and learned more about saws and sharpening. Marv should write a book on saw sharpening and restoration. At one point we took a dive into getting a better vise setup. That led to purchasing two Disston 3D vises on eBay and some brainstorming.

What's in the pictures is the result. It doesn't hold a candle to Marv's big vise, but it does keep me from having to move the saw, and it's pretty solid and vibration free.

As you can see, we removed the swivel bases (a source of lots of vibration) and used the big bolt holes to fasten the vises to an angle iron base. The tough part was getting the two vises to line up. Then this is mounted to a bench against a wall. The fleam board you see on top is actually wedged against the rear shelf to assert pressure against the vises to further prevent vibration and movement.

On the shelf behind the fleam board I have two desk lamps with big halogen bulbs. These and a pair of glasses with magnifying clips make it possible for me to see what I'm doing, even on a 15 point saw.

[Johnny Kleso]

Thats Really Sweet!

I had two of the vises I now use and I am wishing I didn't sell the extra now :)

[Paul Incognito]

That's a nice setup.
I've been thinking about building a wooden vice big enough to not have to move the saw. I like the stability of my steel vices, but moving the saw is a pain.
Do you have any experience with wood saw vices? I'm wondering how this would compare.
TIA,
PI

[Acharya Kumarswami]

I don't have experience with the wooden vises, though I might build one eventually. I think it would fit in my same location. Maybe others who have made such vises have some feedback. I've seen other threads on this forum about them. Once includes the saw vice that Daryl Weir (sp?) built and on which he sharpens his saws. He is a long time sharpener and saw restorer who does excellent work. He swears by his vise. It's a lot more heavy duty than most of the plans you see.

[Marv Werner]

Thanks Acharya for posting some pictures of your Duo Vise.

You are giving me way too much credit, my friend. :) First of all, you were a good student with a sincere desire to learn. It was fun to accomplish what we did strictly by email, but you did all the work and all I did was type emails. I also learned a lot along the way during our countless exchanges. When writing instructions, one must really think things through, not just the obvious but all the details that we might otherwise do automatically.

I had a good mentor when I started learning to file saws. A well known and respected craftsman by the name of Leif Hanson who spent hours trying to drum into my thick brain, a new language relating to saw filing and never tired of having to repeat the same thing over and over.

As for the vise, that too was a fun little project, but the initial idea to use two Disston 3D vises was yours. All I did was suggest various methods to connect them together and again, you did all the work. Glad it turned out to be a good vise for you. If I hadn't already had my big 28" Acme vise set up, I would have copied exactly what you did.

I still have a 3D Disston vise that I made new mounting brackets for and removed the inadequate factory bench clamp. I will sometimes use it for smaller backsaws.

[Andrae Covington]

That's a nice setup.
I've been thinking about building a wooden vice big enough to not have to move the saw. I like the stability of my steel vices, but moving the saw is a pain.
Do you have any experience with wood saw vices? I'm wondering how this would compare.
TIA,
PI

I made a wooden one a while back based on a Popular Woodworking design, but I added a second leg, longer jaws and base. Like you, my goal was not having to move the saw. I posted it here once before, not sure what thread it was. I've only sharpened a couple saws so far but it seems to work fine. Ideally at some point I would like to make some wooden screws (say, 3/4" or 1" diameter) to run through the legs to tighten / untighten the vise, rather than fiddle with clamps. It's a bit of a challenge to squeeze the jaws together to hold the saw plate in place while also tightening the first F-style clamp.

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[Peter Evans]

That is a terrific vise. As I have 3 such Disston 3D vises, I was contemplating joining 2 together - but bolted to a piece of wood using the existing clamps. Whilst this would _probably_ work, your solution is a big improvement. I need to contemplate the metal work (which means coercing a friend or brother-in-law to do the set-up and welding ).

Would a hardwood setup work do you think - we have plenty of really hard wood in this part of the world? And I can work that.

[Peter Evans]

Further thought - a long piece of threaded rod between the two vise arms might ensure they lined up?

[Acharya Kumarswami]

A note for Andrae: I really like your wooden vise. Would you mind sharing the plans?

For Peter: I think hard wood could take the place of the angle iron. And the all-thread is a good idea. Actually I used all-thread, along with C-clamps to bolt the two vises to the angle iron in preparation for welding. After the welding I found that the all thread was not necessary and I replaced it with individual bolts. I think it is ideal to not use the swivel bases, as they offer too much instability. When you are bolting, you can compensate and adjust for an differences in casting between the two vises you use. Let me know if you need more photos to see how the parts come together that you would manufacturer from wood.

[David Weaver]

I like the duo design, thanks for sharing.

I have several saw vises, but have thus far just used two sprung boards in large machinist vise most of the time.

Did you do anything to the vise faces to lap them into perfection? My biggest criticism of the older metal vises is that a lot of times, the castings either weren't true or have moved just a tiny bit and they feel like they could do with a little lapping of their faces.

I'm assuming one could just put stick-on sandpaper on both sides of an old sawplate and lap them, but I have been too lazy so far because I like the sprung boards. It doesn't matter if you ruin them, and you can write all over them. Plus, if they're not too thick, they don't hinder much file throw and they help give you a reference to stay absolutely horizontal.

[Acharya Kumarswami]

I must admit that the vises are not totally without a certain amount of vibration, as you say. Yes, I have lap filed the faces of the jaws and gotten quite a bit of improvement, but there are still parts of the vises that are not as tight as others. I sort of live with it. Maybe I will work on them again. Then there's the matter of the short space between the vises that gives a little more vibration than one would like.

[Andrae Covington]

A note for Andrae: I really like your wooden vise. Would you mind sharing the plans?

Oh thanks. Not as robust as yours, but it works. Well the original small vise was in Popular Woodworking #183 (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/jun10) (June 2010), with drawings and text on how to build it. Here's one of their blog posts (http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Getting+Ready+For+Woodworking+In+America.aspx) from when they made 38 of them for the 2008 Woodworking in America. I basically doubled their design and made the jaws and base longer.

Below are a couple more photos during construction which hopefully will give you the gist of it.

The legs are notched out to receive the jaws. The rear legs are screwed and glued to the base, including to a couple triangular supports.

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Then there are a couple blocks attached to the rear legs which are chamfered horizontally. These become the fulcrum points for the front legs to bend as you tighten the clamps. There is some head-scratching in figuring out how thick to make those blocks so that in the unclamped state you have a small gap between the jaws, say 1/8", and then when you tighten the clamps, the jaws squeeze onto the saw plate.

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The jaws are beveled on the outside faces. In theory, the inside face of the front jaw should also be beveled / tapered some slight amount so that after tightening the clamps, that face is parallel with the sawplate for full contact. But in practice I don't think it matters; I didn't have any problems with chattering. They also recommended planing a slight hollow horizontally on the inside faces, so clamping towards the outside will make a tight fit all along... like a spring joint for glue-ups. Again, I didn't bother and it seems to work fine, but YMMV.

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After putting it together, I realized that the jaws, even tapered in height, interfered with the saw handles, so that I could not slide the sawplate completely into the jaws. So I cut out each end of the jaws to approximate the reciprocal shape of a D-8 handle, which of the saws I have seemed to stick out the most.

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My jaws are 22" long, which is enough for the handsaws I have. I did sharpen a 24" miter saw and even though about an inch stuck out at each end, I only had a little chatter on the last few teeth. You could certainly make longer jaws.

Hope that helps.

[Acharya Kumarswami]

Thanks, Andrae, for taking the time to post the photos. I have a long end vise on one of our benches. I might try just making a pair of jaws first and clamping them in the vise. I will study out your notes about hollowing, etc. Mahalo.

[Acharya Kumarswami]

Despite my comments on the variation in pressure on certain areas of the two vises, I would say overall I am very happy with the setup and won't be going into a wooden version. The convenience of the quick-release jaws is a big plus, and this set up is solid as a rock. So If anyone is thinking of going this way, I would highly recommend it. I believe I can improve on a couple spots on the jaws, which are really only on the right-hand vise.

[Marv Werner]

If someone is contemplating reworking the jaws on their metal vise, the back jaw should be flat and straight, while the front jaw should be slightly curved so the ends touch first and with added pressure, straightens out and clamps evenly the full length of the jaws when clamping a saw blade.


Acharya,.......and others who might be planning to build a Duo type vise.....

As a side note.....After we built your vise, I've had some reconsideration's....... If I ever design another duo type vise, I will mount the two vises so each can be separately adjusted for alignment. They can both be mounted on a common base, but bolted, not welded. One of the vises could have slots in it's base so it can quickly and easily be slid farther to one side to accommodate both a 26" or a 28" blade. When filing in the gap between the two vises, the sliding vise could be un-clamped from the blade, slid over to touch the other vise. This could be done with the other vise still clamping the blade.