Precise drilling recommendations?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am ready to mount the handle on the collaborative box drawer. I need to drill 2 holes in very precise positions to fit the handle.

I am toying with the idea of making a jig, clamping it to the front of the drawer and using it to position the bit as I drill the hole with my drill press. Has anybody tried this and do you think it will work?

Thanks.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Not familiar with the project, but I assume the handle style is like a C or a U form?

In the past, with that style, I have gotten a couple spare bolts, cut the heads off, put these threaded rods into the handle, and tapped on the handle with a block of wood to make indentations for drilling locations. You could also do this with scrap - drill the holes in the scrap, and then use that to clamp to the drawer front as jig/guide for drilling the final holes.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Kent,

Here is a photo of the prototype http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=173165&d=1290223762 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=481&attachmentid=173161)

and I already have the "jig" made. I was wondering if anyone had done it. I only get one chance to do it right on this drawer. Blow it and I get to look for design opportunities.:o

[Chris Padilla]

Put two screws into the handle with a sharpened points and mark the lid where you want to drill the holes--or something like that.

Then I'd use a brad point bit to drill clean holes. For two holes, there's no need for a drill press--use a hand drill.

Edit: Doh, didn't see Kent's post.

[Neil Brooks]

I like their ideas.

Only thing I might add is ... this is where I'd use my Incra t-square ruler or a small double square, lay a horizontal line out at the right up-down location, and THEN use the actual handle to mark the widths.

Awfully easy to put things like that in, crooked.

DAMHIKT :rolleyes:

The other way is to use your calipers to measure the point-to-point distance on the screws, and then use THAT distance -- again, with a combo square -- to give the vertical marks, leaving you with -- in theory -- perfect "cross-hairs" for where to drill.

Works for me :)

[Bruce Page]

I would lay it out using a rule & square and mark with a snap punch.
I would use a hand drill if the drawer box is already made.

[John Coloccia]

Have you drilled the holes in the handle yet? If not, make a template out of paper, from the handle. Put the handle on a piece of paper and trace around the mounting points. Be sure you have a horizontal centerline marked. Now turn the handle over and align the "template" with the handle. Make a little prick with a pin somewhere in the center of the mounting points on the handle...I use the point of a divider. The beauty of this is the holes don't have to be perfectly aligned on the centerline. You now have two little pricks for hole centers. Take the template and align it on the drawer, using the centerline. Make two little pricks for holes. The holes may not be perfectly centered at this point, but your handle will be and the holes will line up precisely.

That's how I would probably approach it. Divide up the problem into two parts. Part one is aligning the handle (using the centerline) and part two is making the holes (with the pin pricks). The two parts only need to be well enough align that you don't blow through the handle, and that you can eyeball.

Why do I use a divider? Because I Can poke on one side, and without moving anything (i.e. keeping the template captured) I can adjust the width of the divider and poke the other side as well. Now I know that nothing's moved plus I have a preset divider ready for marking the drawer. The center line determines the alignment, and the dividers precisely locate the holes even if you're off just a touch.

I know this seems like a lot of steps, but after you actually do it I think it makes more sense and is actually very straightforward and foolproof (though I HAVE still screwed it up by getting sloppy....nothing is foolproof if you find a good enough fool...me, for example!).


I hope that helps.

edit: I though about it for a second, and you need a vertical centerline too unless you're willing to eyeball it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here's the problem.

I need to drill 2 concentric holes of different diameters at two different precise locations.

Here's what I have so far:

I have a rectangular scrap piece of 3/4" plywood with the holes of both diameters drilled in the 2 precise locations. In other words if this piece of plywood was the drawer front, I'd be done.

When I layed them out, I marked precise centering lines in both the vertical and horizontal locations so I can locate the jig on similar lines on the drawer front.

Will I be able to clamp the jig to the drawer front, drill the smaller hole first using the jig as a guide on my drill press? Then switch to the larger diameter bit and repeat the process?

What say ye?

Thanks.

[Leigh Betsch]

In not sure I follow what you are doing but if you are drilling one hole as a counter bore for the other one make sure to clamp your work down or it might ride the larger bit up and then you'll end up with just one large hole. Also I would drill the larger hole first to its depth, then put in the smaller bit and drill thru. Course I probably don't really understand what you're doing so I'm not making any sense here, but I try. Good luck.

[John Coloccia]

Are you trying to mortise the handle into the drawer front? If so, the critical part is establishing the centers. I would still use the divider technique for this. It just makes it more critical to establish the center of you handle mount points. Once you have that, use the dividers (without changing them!) to establish the center of the your drawer front holes. The holes should then be co-axial. If this is what you're doing, it is indeed a difficult problem and I don't know any shortcuts other than using a piloted counterbore. Even so, you'll likely not find one of the exact dimensions you need. I have a couple I use that I had to custom machine the pilots myself on some equipment I have access to.

Doing a couple of practice runs helps. There's a lot of elements that have to come together to make this work. Accurate turning, accurate marking and accurate drill press alignment. That's a lot of elements to get right for such a seemingly simply thing. It's a bummer that when it's all done, it looks so simple that almost no one who sees it appreciates what went in to it, but all of us will appreciate it!

I'm interested to see the technique that you finally settle on. If there's a better way of doing this, I'm very interested in knowing it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

The turning is done. The handle looks similar to the previous photo. The standoffs are fit very nicely inside a 3/8" hole and I have a brand new 3/8" forstner bit. Yes..i'm trying to mortise them into the drawer front.

As you suggested I will make a couple practise runs on some scrap. I only get one chance to get this right.

I will try to get photos and post them here shortly.

[Chip Lindley]

If mortising the round handle parts into the drawer front, as John postulates, that large diameter hole is critical; the smaller holes are not.

Use of a quality brad point bit (or Forstner bit) will drill a clean hole to let the handle parts into the drawer front. Drill those with the right spacing, to the right depth at a faster speed. Either bit will leave a dimple in the center of the hole bottom. Center the smaller bit in that dimple and drill through, using a backup board. It will work!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Again - this is from a distance, but it sounds like a situation where I would use a forstner for the counterbore [larger] hole first, leaving a dead-center dimple for aligning the thru-hole. Since you have an accurate jig in hand, tap a bit thru the smaller hole[s] to make reference marks on drawer front for counterbore alignment.

I have always - always - messed it up when I have tried to drill the smaller hole first, and then get the larger bit centered correctly.

[John Coloccia]

John,

The turning is done. The handle looks similar to the previous photo. The standoffs are fit very nicely inside a 3/8" hole and I have a brand new 3/8" forstner bit. Yes..i'm trying to mortise them into the drawer front.

As you suggested I will make a couple practise runs on some scrap. I only get one chance to get this right.

I will try to get photos and post them here shortly.

Maybe I'm not being clear. I'm suggesting the you find the center of your standoffs and set dividers up to that exact distance. One way or another you need to find the center. Once you have the dividers set, you can use those to mark the centers on the drawer but I'm suggesting that you use a piece of scrap to verify your divider settings. You can fine tune it like this. When it's perfect, you can use the dividers to transfer the exact perfect dimension to the real drawer front.

I guess the idea is to take practice runs in a piece of scrap, but the dividers will store the setting once you get it perfect, and you can use those to transfer the centers to the actual workpiece. It's a little tedious but it will be set perfectly once you get to the real deal. I've done this sort of stuff before and I haven't found a better way of doing it other than a little trial and error to get that perfect, hand fit look. It's remarkably tedious to get it absolutely perfect for such a seemingly simple task and almost no one appreciates it other than someone who's had to do it before.

If you have an accurate jig, Kent has a great approach. The "bad" approach is trying to drill out a smaller hole to a larger hole. It's not really a bad approach but it's just very difficult to get that larger bit aligned. Maybe my eyeballs just aren't that great, but I always end up with something that's off center, and I often end up with a lot of chattering as well. I just personally find it hard but a lot of other folks have good success doing that.

FWIW, I like the handle design. It's very simple and elegant but very tactile as well. A blind man could walk up to it and immediately find where to pull. Very nice.

[Bruce Page]

You could send it south and I'll do it on my mill. :)

[Ted Calver]

I have a rectangular scrap piece of 3/4" plywood with the holes of both diameters drilled in the 2 precise locations. In other words if this piece of plywood was the drawer front, I'd be done.

Clamp your jig to the drawer front and use it as a guide to drill the larger holes first. The forstner will leave a nice center dimple for the smaller holes. Just make sure you have a backer clamped in place to prevent blow out.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ken - Dude - the suspense is killing me. [Well, not quite to the point yet where I've lost sleep over your dilemma, but still......].

What did you do? How's it look? Did anyone have advice worse than mine?

[Steve H Graham]

Machinists use center drills to start accurate holes. They are short and extremely rigid, with little reduced-diameter extensions that merge into countersinks. Easier for you to Google than for me to explain.

Another alternative: screw machine length drills. These are shorter than jobber drills, and they wander less.

Found a link that makes it clear: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1230&category=

[Alan Schwabacher]

You could use a fence and a stop at one end to position the drawer front, then clamp and drill both hole sizes in one position. Now slide the drawer front along the fence, using a spacer cut to the distance between hole centers between the drawer and the stop. Drill in the second position. So the jig is one scrap cut to the correct spacer length. You can test on scrap whether this will give the precision fit you need, before drilling your drawer front.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken - Dude - the suspense is killing me. [Well, not quite to the point yet where I've lost sleep over your dilemma, but still......].

What did you do? How's it look? Did anyone have advice worse than mine?

Kent....so far I have just been practicing in some scrap. I only get one shot and want it to right the first time. I'll take some photos in the morning and show you why I'm sweating this. I think it will turn out okay but I want a lot practice first.

[Bill Huber]

I am sure by now you have it done but I thought I would add my 2 cents.

When I have to drill holes that have to be very very precise holes I lay things out in a 3/4 scrap board and make sure I have it perfect. I use a 3/4 or thicker board so my punch will not be able to move off a 90 degree angle.

I then use a transfer punch to mark the hole to drill. I use my transfer punches a lot and think that is one of the tools that really needs to be in every shop, they are cheap and do a great job.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD4EX/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B001C1D67K&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1YFP101H09PH0NSVH7SK

[Kent A Bathurst]

Kent....so far I have just been practicing in some scrap. I only get one shot and want it to right the first time. I'll take some photos in the morning and show you why I'm sweating this. I think it will turn out okay but I want a lot practice first.

Don't leave your game on the practice tee!!!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Don't leave your game on the practice tee!!!!


Not a problem...I gave up golf in 1974 when I discovered I didn't have enough patience.:D

[Marty Paulus]

Ken, Seems to me the important part is getting the hole in for the mortise portion. The holes that will be filled with the screws can be slightly oversized to account for any tolerance in your ability. Drilling the mortise with a foresner and use the dimple at the bottom as a center for the smaller drill. Using John's idea of dividers for the spacing of the CL is great. I would definately use a DP to do this as the depth of the mortise is more easily controlled as well as the ability to maintain the center of the hole when you switch bits. I am sure the ability to drill square to the surface with the DP will not hurt either.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Well Kent....check the collaborative box thread. I finally got up the courage to drill the holes after a few hours of practice to prove I could use a jig to guide the 3/8" forstner bit. It worked like a charm.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177503&d=1294722261 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=177503&d=1294722261)

[Kent A Bathurst]

I finally got up the courage to drill the holes ....... It worked like a charm...........

Very nicely done, Kemosabe.

[Jim Heffner]

The other posters here, have some good ideas but I like this idea better.....buy an in-expensive plastic drilling jig from big box store already set up for every standard
cabinet pull handle on the market. Just match the holes in your handle with the
right hole in the jig, mark them when in the proper position and drill and install...your done!

[ian maybury]

Hi guys. A deceptively thorny question Ken. Seems to me that there's several dimensions to this problem - in no particular order. It can also change considerably depending on the type of handle and panel - it's actually a damn awkward job for something that seems so inconsequential. The tiniest error can be so obvious, and it's so easy to screw up huge amounts of work at this often almost final step. The questions/problems include:

(1) What is the horizontal (and occasionally the vertical) spacing (as opposed to just the simple distance) between the screw hole centres in the handle when the handle is square/vertical? (I've seen examples where the screw holes are not accurately placed in the fitting) (2) Where do these holes end up on the drawer/door face when the handle is correctly aligned and placed? (if the holes are not accurately placed then that's not necessarily horizontally/vertically/centred) (3) How can the required hole locations be transferred to the door/drawer/panel front?, and (4) How can the drill be prevented from wandering away from the marked centres as it cuts?

I don't know if there is a one size fits all solution, but I'm not a big fan of trying to do it by measurement - there's a high risk of errors. My instincts tend to be to use some sort of DIY fixture to locate the fitting correctly off the edges of the panel, and to then use a transfer punch http://www.amazon.com/Flexbar-Transfer-Punch-Set/dp/B001C177IY that matches the hole size to transfer the hole centre to the workpiece, or to a perspex or whatever material template that locates off the panel edges if there's a number to be done and the fittings are all the same. If the hole in the fitting is threaded and blind, then one route is to turn a pointed marking stud from e.g. a bolt that will screw into the hole in the fitting which can then be set at the correct depth to make a mark when the fitting is pressed up against the panel or the template. You can make a threaded point like this using a file and an electric drill.

I prefer if I reasonably can to drill through a firmly fixed and correctly sized (to suit the screw thread) template hole, or to use a brad point drill (which allows the drill to be accurately centered on the punch mark) in a drill press with the panel somehow firmly fixed - basically because free hand drilling is such a lottery, even with a brad point. It's so often the case that there will be a bit of hard grain in there that deflects the drill, and even if there isn't there's a risk that a slight out of squareness will cause the drill will bite at one side and lever itself away from the centre.

It in the end tends to come down to much of a betting man/woman you are, and what's at risk if it goes wrong - there's many times it's hard to be bothered getting set up for a few holes....

ian

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ian and all,

In my previous post I showed a photograph of the finished product.

I was able to make a jig or template if you will. It worked great. I had never used a template for drilling and was concerned about it's accuracy. After spending a couple hourse making and using the jig, I drilled the project and it went well.

Currently I am making the handle for the secret/hidden drawer and hope to be finished later today.

[ian maybury]

Thought you were just proposing Ken, down to my rushing. Well done.

Another couple of advantages with using a template: (1) you get to check your hole spacings are correct before you drill the piece, and (2) stress reduction! :)

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree Ian....but there was still an adrenalin rush as I pulled down on the handle of the drill press......:D