Another DC concern. (Rant)

[John Miliunas]

I don't wish to beat this to death, but I'm curious if anyone might have an answer for this. OK, having 5" or, better yet, 6" ducting for a DC system has been proved time and again by the likes of Bill Pentz, Dennis Peacock, Terry and many others. Real world stats show the highest efficiency is realized with 6" runs going as close to and possibly right to the machine. This makes much sense. The common practice being, run 5 or 6 inch real close to the source and only then funnel down to the 4". Here's the question: Why, with all this knowledge and statistics to prove it out, do OEM's continue to insist on having only 4" DC ports on their machines???!!! :confused: The mainstay in most shops is the TS. Why heck, even the high-end saws only have 4" ports. Machines creating LOTS of the most health-damaging dust, such as drum sanders, insist on providing/supplying 4" ports until you get to some of the much larger units.

Now I know that on some machines, converting to a 5 or 6" port isn't that difficult. (ie: cabinet TS & jointer). Other tools, such as smaller drum sanders, lunch-box planers, shapers, etc..., may present more of a challenge, if at all possible. Plus, why in the heck would I want to spend close to two grand for say a Unisaw and, the first thing I cut, is the darn cabinet?!:mad:

Generally, I believe WW's are a pretty responsible bunch and concerned about their own health and that of their family, especially in the case of a basement shop or similar. There are folks like Bill Pentz dedicating hundreds of hours to research, engineer and perfect a system which will minimize what gets into the air. Why then, are the OEM's insisting on continuing to place physical limits on their equipment which does not allow for the most efficient method of protecting one's health?:confused: I know the first response to that question may be that, "Hey, most people don't have 6" systems." Well, *MY* response is, "...this is changing. Plus, why not design your machine(s) for 6" or, at least 5" DC ports and let the customer buy a reducer if that's what is necessary?!" Like I said before, hacking on a brand new tool to modify what should've been done at the factory, is NOT my idea of monies well spent! OK, rant "off".

Sorry for the rant, but I'm still hopeful that our housing situation will be such that I'll end up with a larger shop and *more efficient DC system.* With that in mind, I've been investigating what I'll have to do in order to make it happen efficiently. The above really kind of pisses me off.:mad: Also, sorry if this topic has been covered previously, but I haven't seen it. :cool:

[Jason Roehl]

Makes perfect sense to me, John! Doesn't affect me yet, as I am still "true DC"-less, but I feel your pain. My observation is that tool companies tend to be pretty slow to respond to market needs/forces. It's only been the last ten years or so that they have gotten serious about catering to the needs of contractors (something to do with the housing boom, maybe?). So maybe in the near future if ww'ing really takes off, they will realize that they need to be building high-quality, economical tools with the features that ww'ers WANT and NEED.

[Bob Wilkerson]

FWIW, many manufacturers don't seem to know what it takes to provide proper dust collection on their machines........ When OSHA gets into the act they'll be forced to make the changes but I doubt that they'll do it before then. For most, chip collection is what they see and the find dust that is harmful goes unnoticed.:eek: The internet has been a real boon in this area for us. Without it and people like Bill Pentz the information that is out there wouldn't get to us at all.

Even the magazines won't do enough research to provide us with the right information. Old standards of air volumes for each machine are significantly lower than current research indicates. I'll agree that it would be nice if they would start providing larger ports on equipmment that can handle one. However, FWIW, air is relatively fluid over short transitions so running an adapter directly from the equipment into a 6" pipe should work relatively well in most cases.

I'm got a similar concern as the new (to me) 25" Woodmaster drum sander that I picked up has just a 4" outlet that runs to a knife edge pickup point near the drum. It will be interesting to see how it works but I'll have to live with it as trying to retrofit something larger would take more metalworking skill than I have.

Still, it would be nice if all the manufacturers would make an honest effort to provide the proper fittings to allow dust collection at the newer flow rates that research has shown to be necessary for healthy woodworking........

Bob

[Dennis McDonaugh]

John, my first inclination is to say manufacturers don't like to change their equipment because it cost them money without increasing sales, but then as I think about it I realize that's not true. Manufacturers create sales by continuously producing new (and more expensive) equipment. Since they continuously bombard consumers with new models touting new features my guess would be that they don't perceive a demand for 6" dust ports on equipment. I'd also say they're probably right. We (people at Sawmill Creek, Wood Central et al) have a skewed view of the typical hobbiest woodworker. I'd guess that few woodworkers have any type of dust collection and even fewer have a fixed system with 6" ducts.

[Steven Wilson]

You're right, for the low end hobby market. Even a Unisaw or PM66 are still very low end table saws - nice saws but not a Martin. Once you get up into industrial equipment they tend to have dust collection ports suitable for the machine. Every look at the number of 5" ports on a Timesaver (IIRC it's 4 or 5)? The 5" or larger ports on a Northfield planer?

[John Miliunas]

I'd guess that few woodworkers have any type of dust collection and even fewer have a fixed system with 6" ducts. [/B][/QUOTE]

Dennis, this is precisely my point. And, it appears that the OEM's are doing little or nothing to try and *promote* the health issue of fine dust. Plus, as I mentioned originally, I really believe that WW's are becoming more and more aware of the DC situation and are working to improve their own working environment. I'm sure you're absolutely correct in there not being too many 6" systems out there, my own inclusive. And, according to the OEM's, why should there be? After all, they provide us with 4" ports or sometimes "offer" them as options. Surely, they *MUST* know what's enough to get rid of the particulate dust, don't they??!!:mad:

Hey, I for one, thought exactly that. Look around. Like I said, even high-end units have or offer only 4" ports. If the OEM's were at all concerned about our health, they would engineer proper *internal* ducting or baffles to direct both, the chip and particulate dust to a larger, less restrictive port. I mean, if you were new to WW'ing and just started buying equipment, you notice that all the bigger stuff has, at least, a 5" DC port, more often a 6"-er. OK, now you're getting ready to outfit your shop with a DC, permanent or otherwise. "Hmmmmm.... Let's see. My TS, jointer, BS and shaper all have 6" ports. I'd better get a unit capable of handling that." It's only human nature and really, common sense. If you buy a house with a 220v outlet for a stove, chances are pretty good you'll buy an electric stove to work from that outlet. Not very often will one go through the trouble of plumbing in natural or LP gas to have one of those stoves.

I guess I just feel that with the WW "hobby" growing daily, OEM's would be compelled to be just a bit more responsible and a bit more forthright with information regarding our health. I can't believe it would be that labor or cost intense to modify machines for larger ports during the manufacturing process. Heck, they could even make the 6>5 or 6>4 adapters available as an "option" and profit a bit more from that. Just my $00.02 :cool:

[Bill Pentz]

John, Bob, and all,

Thanks for the kind words. My efforts really have taken a lot of time and effort, but are mostly a labor of love!

Bob made a very good and important point in saying that you can just live with the 4" smaller tool inlets if you reduce down right at the inlet. Yes, there is some loss, but not nearly what it would be if you went with the smaller 4" or even 5" diameter ducting. For ports under 4" you need to get creative.

I still get 4+ hours worth of emails to respond to daily. About one in four starts off by telling me that their first thought was I was an idiot and fanatic (usually in kinder terms). They then admit reluctantly trying an upgrade with the larger diameter duct to a problem machine and find the problems instantly vanished, even without changing the machine connector. Most thank me for sharing. A few curse me and the whole industry for not telling them earlier before they spent a fortune on too small of ducting or buried it under their concrete floors.

As far as why no change, there is a huge emotional investment in the status quo. Any idiot that criticizes my fine European combination machine that I spent a small fortune on after pinching pennies for years had better put up his dukes. In fact, I warn you that I have a black belt, a brown belt, and even a tan one made of hemp! This is like my trying to tell the new owner of a cheap import DC or cheap import fine filter bags that thoughtfully did their homework to buy the best that they could afford that the performance does not meet my standards. Worse, how about telling someone who just dropped $3K with a cyclone vendor that their cyclone is too small, their ductwork is the wrong size, the joints all wrong, and that the design is terrible? All this does is upset people who have made a best effort to do things right. Most immediately get defensive and attack instead of look at the facts.

The facts run square into a serious economic issue. Face it, hobbyist dust collection is stuck in the mindset and costs of chip collectors. A high end 2 hp chip collector is not ample to be a low-end fine dust collector. Moreover, vendors live off their huge train of these low end products with a never-ending supply of new, ignorant woodworkers who just want help with the broom work. The competition for these low end units is so fierce I was unable to even buy a real American made DC two years ago. We are talking the majority of the money spent by hobbyists on dust collection here and all of the vendors have one or more products aimed right at this market that frankly should no longer exist. Does an established cyclone maker pull their low end bread-and-butter cyclone? Do the established dust collector makers, pull their units? That is not going to happen unless we get some federal regulation that I don't think any of us want.

In addition to the emotions and economics, our industry leadership continues to put out dated information. For example, the recent American Woodworker magazine article by Dave Munkittrick started off with a premise that 500 CFM is ample for all our larger machines. Lots of hobbyist sites still advocate this CFM that is ample for chip collection. Ten years ago the 500 CFM was a pretty high-end recommendation. Today, most professional air engineers who design systems that have to meet the somewhat lax federal air quality standards use 800 CFM as the minimum standard to collect the fine dust at our larger hobbyist sized machines. You can't move 800 CFM through anything smaller than a 6" duct with hobbyist sized blowers. Regardless, that pretty well written article will put hundreds if not thousands of woodworkers at a greater long-term risk because based on that one assumption it uses too small of ducting and too small of a blower. It also was terribly remiss in not addressing filtering and need to address the fine, most unhealthy dust.

On a far more positive side, I am happy to report that one of the larger tool makers contacted me and requested a thorough evaluation on a pair of new cyclone dust collectors before they gear up their manufacturing. I physically could not do the technical analysis, so put them in touch with Terry Hatfield who can. At the same time, I have been working through the numbers and designs. I believe without too much work, the result will be a new baseline unit that will make a huge difference in both airflow and filtering performance. Moreover, I'm talking with their senior product engineers and they are coming to the same realization that it is time for them to start taking fine dust control much more seriously.

I don't expect to see the changes overnight, but am most pleased that folks like Terry Hatfield with his www.dusteliminator.com and Larry Adcock with his www.woodsucker.com are quietly proving to hobbyists all over that there is a much better way. As people do more homework, they are going to demand these better products. I've already seen the result with Oneida-Air www.oneida-air.com mostly backing off their 1.5 hp too small unit and stepping up to offering for about the same price a much more suitable 2 hp cyclone. Likewise, PSI appears to have incorporated some of my advice with the new units now scheduled to come out next month, unfortunately they still don't seem to get it as I'm afraid the motors will burn up with all as specified. I guess I have never forgiven PSI after wasting my nickel on a long, expensive phone call trying to explain to their "engineer" that the same sized impeller at the same rotational speed will deliver the same airflow for any horsepower motor ample to turn it.

bill

[Glen Smith]

I'm glad to hear that mfg's are calling and talking to Bill. That makes me more optimistic.

Look at Bandsaws, almost every review that I have seen for a new BS says - "dust collection is terrible". Some of them come with a DC connection, but they look like they are just stuck on the machine willy nilly wherever there was a handy place to rivit a flange on.

I have seen many creative and SIMPLE methods posted to improve dust collection from BS's with just the 4" port. I'd be happy to see some thought put into the location of the pickups. I can't imagine what I will do when (IF) new tools start becoming available with thoughfully located 6" pickups.

Glen.

[Derek Arita]

OK Bill...what company is it that you and Terry are working with? Can you tell us anything? If they are coming out with improved DCs, then I'd like to know who they are and when the DCs will be out. How about a hint???

[Bill Pentz]

Gee Derek..

Ask me questions I can answer!

No idea when the new units will be ready to go, but I hope to have my part in adding my two cents done in about 6 weeks. Although I was not asked to keep the name confidential, I prefer to do so and appreciate their trusting Terry and me enough to ask for our help.

bill

[Merle Clor]

I agree that I don't like cutting holes in my new machinery. I believe that it would make more sense for manufacturers to offer 6 inch ports as standard and then of offer reducers as options, for which they could reasonably change a nominal additional fee. That addresses the needs of those of us that are concerned about our health as well as those that can not afford a proper DC system at the time. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks,
Merle

[David Rose]

using the term fairly lightly, the borgs all carried the little 1HP Deltas around here. 4" hose was everywhere. Where does the "average" person buy his tools? I don't mean the really serious hobbiest who is likely to order over the net. I think the average guy picks up whatever is at hand where he shops. I did it for years and still do on some things. I just ate a Kroger olive because this store didn't carry the ones I really like. ;-)

And though it is changing, I don't think the "average" wood worker is educated in what is available. "What he sees is what he gets".

David

[John Miliunas]

David, I couldn't agree more! It's not just the Borg's, either. We have two woodworking equipment/supply retailers in the area and, when one walks into either establishment, there's not a sign of anything even closely resembling 6" DC ports, hookups or even flex tube. Like you say, the average guy/gal sees this and figures that's all they need. And, sure enough, they buy it, hook it up and "bingo"....Much of the large "stuff" is now neatly deposited into the DC container. They figure, "mission accomplished". As we are all starting to find out, this is indeed NOT the end of the "mission". :(

With that thought in mind, maybe the retailers at the local levels (Borg's & WW equipment/suppliers) should be putting more pressure on the OEM's to get with the program. And, these same retailers should realize if their customers end up in the hospital or, at least, be told by their physician that they need to quit WW'ing, that they, the retailer, stands to lose, as well. The retailer should be providing information to their customers regarding what they should *realistically* expect from their new DC. No, NOT just sell them a $200.00+ air filter, either! If they educate their customer(s) properly, there's a good chance they'll get the sale anyway and, with a healthy client, they'll get many more! Just my $00.02. :cool:

[John Miliunas]

David, I couldn't agree more! It's not just the Borg's, either. We have two woodworking equipment/supply retailers in the area and, when one walks into either establishment, there's not a sign of anything even closely resembling 6" DC ports, hookups or even flex tube. Like you say, the average guy/gal sees this and figures that's all they need. And, sure enough, they buy it, hook it up and "bingo"....Much of the large "stuff" is now neatly deposited into the DC container. They figure, "mission accomplished". As we are all starting to find out, this is indeed NOT the end of the "mission". :(

With that thought in mind, maybe the retailers at the local levels (Borg's & WW equipment/suppliers) should be putting more pressure on the OEM's to get with the program. And, these same retailers should realize if their customers end up in the hospital or, at least, be told by their physician that they need to quit WW'ing, that they, the retailer, stands to lose, as well. The retailer should be providing information to their customers regarding what they should *realistically* expect from their new DC. No, NOT just sell them a $200.00+ air filter, either! If they educate their customer(s) properly, there's a good chance they'll get the sale anyway and, with a healthy client, they'll get many more! Just my $00.02. :cool:

[Bart Leetch]

You know I've noticed more of the fine dust in the air with the 30 micron bags (before I changed to pleated filters) than I ever did when I was working in my Dad's shop where we didn't have dust collection & the chips just fell on the floor & we swept them up. With out proper CFM & chip separation & proper filters the DC is just a dust pump to put more fine lung damaging dust into the atmosphere. Your probably better off letting it drop to the floor & wearing a good cartridge filter mask.

[Bill Pentz]

Bart,

Well said!

bill

[Steve Hooper]

Good morning Guys:

You all don't hear much from me, but I've been here from the early days of the pond. I feel that I need to put my 2c on this thread.

In my opinion the only way to not have any dust in the shop is to stay out on it.

That said; I have a homemade downdraft table, large air handler on the heat pump, and a jet 2 hp DC.

The DC has been with me for about 15 years. Its early enhancements were a larger impeller, single 6" intake, and a 55-gallon drum to act as a secondary chip drop.
When I moved into the current shop I dumped most of the 4"PVC and plumbed in 6" flex, 6" and 4" metal air duct. Then necked down to 4" flex, 4" PVC, and 11/2 flex. All the latter go to feed various tools. He DC itself sits outside my shop proper.

I have never been really satisfied with the efficient function of the system. All the big pieces did go into the drum and the dust into the bags. The air speed (not measured) was never satisfactory.

Slightly more than a year ago ordered and installed a custom 1u upper bag. The diameter to fit and the length is as long as I thought I could deal with. It's about 80 inches long.

A plastic trash bag replaced the bottom bag.
Prior to installation, I tested the airflow with my measurement device (the flow over my hand).
When the bag was installed, I could not detect any change in the flow. Indeed, the new bag did not fully inflate.
Now it does inflate, but the flow is still very high. The downside is that my secondary drum no longer works. The chips flow around the installed baffles and everything goes into my trash bag.
An example of the flow: My Griz table saw has a homemade 4" port which goes into 4" PVC, into 2-90deg. bends, into a six/seven foot piece of rigid PVC, into about four foot of flex, into a four inch blast gate, into the bottom of my six inch main.
During a blade change the other day, with the DC running and several other gates opened, I dropped the arbor nut. When I caught up with the heavy nut, it was in the flex, approximately eight feet from the saw port.

I can take pictures, if anyone is interested.
Tme to go to work!
Steve

[John Miliunas]

Hey Steve, yeah, I'd be interested in seeing some shots of your setup. I'm really kind of surprised that the 55gal. no longer functions for your chip drop. That's an awful long ways down! :cool: