my first project... input for a newbee would be appreciated

[Scott Baer]

I am on the cusp of really messing up our master bedroom :rolleyes: We have a "nook" that is approx 70" wide and 32" deep that I will attept to build the enclosed "built-in" in. It will be white painted poplar. the crown will transition into the crown in the bedroom. The shelves, tv cavity and small cabinets sitting on the "dresser" part will be recessed maybe 10" or so and the columns will wrap around the corners of the nook. The top will be a lighted plant shelf.

Hope that's nuff info to give some input.

thanx in advance.

I'z ascared :eek:

[Scott Baer]

176627
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/pencil.png

[Dave Houseal]

Neat design!

What part has you nervous? The build itself...not completely sure about the design?

[Scott Baer]

I am happy w/ the design, I spose what makes me nervous is the fact that it's my first furniture-like project. I have experience w/ other things, but never something like this. I am not sure of the methods or details on the build. e.g. dowels, M&Ts or rabits? where to use sheet goods and where to mill my own poplar? How to make sure the think is square... stuff like that. I just wanna make sure that is is something to be proud of in the end. Not just a crappy bookcase.

[Dave Houseal]

I'm probably like one level above newbie...lol...so I remember that feeling well. Since this is a pretty big project, just remember that it is still made out of small parts that aren't that hard to put together. You just go one part at a time and make sure each one is done right and it will all come together.

In my opinion, what kind of joinery will be best depends on what tools you have and what joinery you're comfortable with. My guess would be that rabits and dado's are probably going to be easiest to work with. Though mortise and tenon isn't that hard if you take your time.

You probably want to take the time to do some more detailed drawings that will show how your casework is going to come together. Show how you're going to break the parts down for instance....just focus on how the dresser part will go together first. Then work on the two side shelves then the box of drawers for the top.

And remember...you're probably the only one that will see the mistakes. And you will make them, and they will drive you a little nuts and make you want to build it all over again. Just remember to step back and look at the big picture and not be too hyper critical of your work.

[Trever Williams]

How come you're going to use painted poplar? To save money or because you really want it to be white? How long do you plan on living in this house? I'd say if you're going to put your blood, sweat, & tears into something you're going to keep for a long time and be proud of then you ought to use some nice material like walnut or cherry, but not if you're going to paint it white, and not if you plan on moving soon.

[Ernie Miller]

How come you're going to use painted poplar? To save money or because you really want it to be white? How long do you plan on living in this house? I'd say if you're going to put your blood, sweat, & tears into something you're going to keep for a long time and be proud of then you ought to use some nice material like walnut or cherry, but not if you're going to paint it white, and not if you plan on moving soon.

I have to, respectively, take exception to this. It is understandable that, in a woodworking forum, clear finishes on fine wood would be revered. What goes with this is the assumption that the only pieces that should be painted are those that are slapped together for some kind of temporary or utilitarian use and not worthy of the makers' blood, sweat & tears. Have a look at the instrument shown below.

176719

I guarantee you that my blood, sweat, and tears went into its construction. It has 10 to 12 coats of enamel, sanded between each coat. I fully expect it to last for a long, long time. It's an interesting contradiction that many woodworkers will insist on using the finest woods on their project and then look for a quick, wipe-on finish that's easy to apply. A quality painted finish takes as long, or longer than a well applied finish on clear wood. Each has its place in woodworking and neither should claim superiority over the other.

[David Pearson]

I agree with Trever. Go for some nice wood. I think it's actually easier to apply a clear finish. Every time I paint something it looks like a 4 year old painted it... They say practice makes perfect, but I really don't enjoy painting enough to give it any effort!

[Scott Baer]

I think I'm set on the white guys. This is in our master bedroom and all other wood in there is painted (doors, trim, and crown). keep in mind the crown on the built-in will transition into the rest of the crown in the room. Furthermore, being my first project, aren't I correct in saying that it is easier to hide imperfections when painting vs clear? I suppose I could be wrong because white easily exposed all the gaps?

See, I told you I need help!

[Jim Kappel]

You'll probably want to spray that painted finish on. Brushing that type of project, IMHO, is not fun nor does it look as nice as a nice sprayed on finish.

It does look very nice in design BTW. How did you come up with the design?

[Ernie Miller]

I think I'm set on the white guys. This is in our master bedroom and all other wood in there is painted (doors, trim, and crown). keep in mind the crown on the built-in will transition into the rest of the crown in the room. Furthermore, being my first project, aren't I correct in saying that it is easier to hide imperfections when painting vs clear? I suppose I could be wrong because white easily exposed all the gaps?

See, I told you I need help!

Scott,

I've been doing painted finishes for 25 years and I can tell you from experience that paint will not hide imperfections. This idea is the main reason for the poor reputation of painted finishes. Think of paint as varnish with color added. Any preparation that you would do if finishing clear you must also do when finishing with paint. Any flaw will be exaggerated by any finish - clear or paint. Spraying has the advantage of quicker application and the absence of brush marks, but the quality of the finish depends on the preparation. I have seen, and done, acceptable quick clear finishes done with wipe-on this or that. I have never seen a quick painted finish that looks good. Most of us (me included) aren't particularly fond of the finishing process. That said, if you want a piece that you'll be proud of - clear or painted - don't take shortcuts. They will come back to haunt you.
Just my $.02.

Ernie

[david brum]

I'm with Ernie. I've built a bunch of painted pieces over the last several years and can vouch for the fact that imperfections are much, much more visible than with a clear coat. You have to be really meticulous in your prep work or you flaws can be seen across the room. The prep work can be nearly the same as the construction time.

Of course, the beauty of painting is that the wood doesn't have to be pretty. My neighbor has repaired furniture mistakes with Bondo which are invisible after paint is applied. Can't do that with clearcoat. Poplar is perfect for painting since it is cheap and has a mild grain which doesn't really telegraph through the finish.

I'm an amateur for sure, but have tried a bunch of different paints. I think Oil based paint is the way to go for any furniture. It takes a few weeks for the smell to go away, but it dries to a much harder, more durable surface. I'm a fan of Satin Impervo, but I'm sure there are others. I really like shellac-base primer, too. It dries fast and is easy to sand. You will find that is important.

Don't be dissuaded from painting, just realize that you'll be investing some time to get it right.

[Mike OMelia]

You built a Grand Piano? How I guess I can see doing the enclosure, but what about the harp and keyboard (assembly)?

Mike



I have to, respectively, take exception to this. It is understandable that, in a woodworking forum, clear finishes on fine wood would be revered. What goes with this is the assumption that the only pieces that should be painted are those that are slapped together for some kind of temporary or utilitarian use and not worthy of the makers' blood, sweat & tears. Have a look at the instrument shown below.

176719

I guarantee you that my blood, sweat, and tears went into its construction. It has 10 to 12 coats of enamel, sanded between each coat. I fully expect it to last for a long, long time. It's an interesting contradiction that many woodworkers will insist on using the finest woods on their project and then look for a quick, wipe-on finish that's easy to apply. A quality painted finish takes as long, or longer than a well applied finish on clear wood. Each has its place in woodworking and neither should claim superiority over the other.

[Ernie Miller]

You built a Grand Piano? How I guess I can see doing the enclosure, but what about the harp and keyboard (assembly)?

Mike

Mike,

Actually it's not a grand piano, it's a harpsichord. I've been building them for 25 years. See my original post. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?141323-Hello-from-Harpsichord-Land)

Ernie

[Kent A Bathurst]

Scott -

Let 'er rip per plan. Here's why I say that:
1] Unlike perhaps other responders, my first project wasn't gonna end up flawless/perfection no matter what I made or what I finished it with. I'm many, many projects down the road, and I've gotten to where the flaws are downgraded to "I can see 'em, but no one else knows they are there". But it sure as heck wasn't that way in the beginning. I didn't care then, and I don't care now.
2] Paint isn't the be-all, end-all - but if there are newbie joints that need help from wood filler, it's a darn sight better than varnished wood at covering up.
3] There is no "around" the learning process - there is only "through". Pick something you like, pick something that will let you learn multiple tasks, pick something that the back-seat-driver-neighbor-friends [we all got 'em] won't be picking on. Your project meets all of these [assuming you don't throw parties in your bedroom :eek:].

[Scott Baer]

Jim, thanx for the comment on the design. I just sat back on the bed one day and started drawing (I am in NO WAY an artist so it took me a few trys)

Thanx for all the input. I spose I will spray white with a nice oil based.

Am I correct in saying that after I get the more detailed plans schetched up, the first thing to do would build the bottom part, the dresser looking thingy, in the shop and then haul it into the bedroom (completed other than the paint) and slide it into the cavity? Then work on the top part?

Also, any reason to put a "back" on the dresser thingy rather than leaving it open?

[Brian Tymchak]

Jim, thanx for the comment on the design. I just sat back on the bed one day and started drawing (I am in NO WAY an artist so it took me a few trys)

Thanx for all the input. I spose I will spray white with a nice oil based.

Am I correct in saying that after I get the more detailed plans schetched up, the first thing to do would build the bottom part, the dresser looking thingy, in the shop and then haul it into the bedroom (completed other than the paint) and slide it into the cavity? Then work on the top part?

Also, any reason to put a "back" on the dresser thingy rather than leaving it open?


Well, I'm impressed with the quality of the design for being a newbie that just started drawing. Nicely done.

Since you are not constructing the case as a true built in, but a "slide in", I would put a back on the dresser for 2 reasons: to help control dust inside the cabinet and also to add rigidity of the case. ..OK, 3 reasons - you can use the back to help square the case.

Good luck with your project!
Brian

[Kent A Bathurst]

Also, any reason to put a "back" on the dresser thingy rather than leaving it open?


Howrya supporting the top along the walls? How square and plumb are the walls ? [hint: likely answer is "not very"]

Built-ins are often that - literally built in. Furring strips across the walls where the top will rest; furring strips vertically down the walls to attach the face. Only trick with that approach would be to frame in supports for the drawers. You don't need to build a free-standing carcass. You can, but you don't need to. I have tended to avoid it [see: hint above] - I kinda free-style the peg to fit the hole, rather than make a plumb and square peg, haul it in place, and then start cussin'. I just choose to go with the flow, if you will.

[Jim Kappel]

I suggest building this type of project in your garage/shop. This will allow you to build a square and 'perfect' (relatively speaking of course) piece of furniture and slide into place. You may be able to use those columns and/or moldings to cover the gaps left after placing it. Building it to fit an imperfect opening is more challening I believe.

This also allows you to spray the finish on in a more controlled setting like a shop rather than your house/bedroom (if you decide to spray).

Will the piece be proud of the two walls creating the opening? Or will it be flush? What I'm thinking is the columns could be used to cover the gaps after installing and those columns could be proud of the walls similar to a fireplace mantel. All these pieces you'd be building would be built in the shop and installed piece by piece.

Just my .02.

[Robert Chapman]

Kent makes an important point about built ins - Usually walls and ceilings are not square - so be prepared to accommadate this lack of squareness. Usually done with the final moulding pieces at the perimeter of the piece. Very classy looking design whether painted or finished some other way.

[Mitch Barker]

If you do build it as a "slide in", make sure your shop built square unit, can be adapted to the nonsquare opening. For example, meaure the width at the back and front of the opening and build to the smaller measurement. You'll also need some kind of molding based filler between the case and your walls. Sorta making you slide in into a built in.

I hope you enjoy it enough to keep going - and to get more tools.

Mitch

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......get more tools.

Yessir, Mitch - that's us guys. Enablers. Drag some new guy down the rabbit hole with us. :D

[Gregory Myers]

Wow, I tried a similar thing for my first major project. Not that I was green at woodworking, but this was when I decided to knotch up my hobby. First off, I noticed that it could be broken up into two parts...top half and lower half. I would work on the lower half first, because that will enable you to hone your craft. Then when you get to the top half, you will be more proficient.

Good luck, and may the force be with you...Greg

[Terry Beadle]

At first I thought, "Gee...this guy must be crazy to start off with a project of this size and challenges.", then I noted you did the design your self. Design is more than half a project IMO. Your's is very good. Go for it.

You should do some practice work on the joints. box joints or dovetails etc. Tools you may need will define themselves ( budget willing ! ).

Be sure to check how square your room area this is to fit in. Allow for adjustment parts in your design. I agree with doing the work in a workshop and transfer the components as you go. That should give you good feedback as it grows.

Keep us posted. Again, good design !

[Craig Michael]

First bit of advice is to relax and trust your ability. I'm sure your knowledge and skill set is fine for this project, so just plan things out, take your time and get to work. For built in's, I use plywood every where I can, as long you can keep that edge hidden. Plywood is cheaper and more stable. For face frames, the main boxes of the built in, I would use pocket screws and titebond II glue. Why bother with M & T's, etc. and deal with the clamping time, etc.

I'd look at some other examples of what you are looking to do. The scale of a few things might be off a bit.