Dowels vs. Loose tenon

[Roger Pozzi]

Does anyone have a comparison or personal opinion concerning the use of the "Bead-Lock" loose tenon system as an alternative to dowel joints?
It seems to me that both would have the same basic strength with a possible slight edge given to the "Bead-Lock" just because of the overall width of the tenon as compared to the overall width of two dowels. I am wanting to eliminate any racking issues and am not concerned with shear strength.
Thank you in advance.

[Frank Drew]

Roger,

I don't know what the Bead-Lock system is, but I'd prefer a normal loose tenon to dowels, for one reason because there's more side grain gluing surface with mortise and tenon than with dowels.

[Lee Schierer]

assuming clearances are equal, joint strength is a function of glue surface area. Tenons, loose otherwise will give a joint more strength than a doweled joint due to increased surface area.

[John Nesmith]

I use the beadlock jig. In fact, I'm building some cabinet doors with it right now. Inexpensive, easy to use, and plenty strong. You can read a review here. (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/beadlk1.htm)

[Jeff Duncan]

I also prefer loose tenons to dowels for the additional glue surface area. Also with a loose tenon you have the ability to leave a bit of play say 1/16" +/- in the mortise length to allow for easier assembly. With dowels everything has to be dead on.
Don't know much about the beadlock system so can't help you there.
good luck,
JeffD

[Ray Newman]

In another life during another time, I employed dowels in joints, but finally gave when the quality of dowel stock became noticeably substandard and quality hardwood dowels harder to locate.

A few years ago,I built soem shop cabinets.Loking for a quick an easy alternative to tradtional M&T joints for the cabinet doors, I bought the ‘basic’ Bead-Lock kit. It works very well. Joints are strong.

[John TenEyck]

Loose tenons for me, as well, most often using a horizontal router 2-axis mortising machine I made. Fast, clean, and precise, and much easier on end grain than drilling.

[Kevin Stockwell]

assuming clearances are equal, joint strength is a function of glue surface area. Tenons, loose otherwise will give a joint more strength than a doweled joint due to increased surface area.

How do you figure that? With my Dowelmax, I can put almost any arrangement of dowels on the face of the joint with as much surface area as I desire--one row, two rows, staggered, etc. The tests on the Dowelmax site show its strength vs. others.

[michael case]

No question. Tenons loose or traditional. A dowel has good shear strength. I use them in bed where the rail and post are meant to be disassembled. Never a problem. BUT this is because a bolt holds the joint together and the dowel is only for shear strength. In a glued joint they are initially ok. But if you think about the glue contact of say a rail into a leg its 90% end grain and will and fail over time.

[glenn bradley]

I'm with Frank and Lee in preferring the greater long grain surface area.

[Don Dorn]

I'm a Dowelmax owner too and it certainly lives up to its accuracy claim. However, I still find it difficult to believe that even multiple dowels hold up as well as M&T joints. In dowel's defense - Krenov seemed to favor them and I haven't heard of any of his pieces coming apart. Lastly - if you cut into a dowel, you would have end grain, but as they are used - aren't they long grain?

[Glenn Vaughn]

Somehow the premise that a Beadlock loose tenon has more glue surface than dowels does not make sense to me. Using 4 3/8" dowels (what I normally do) for a joint will give me at least as much edge grain contact as a 3/8" beadlock loose tenon that has 5 beads. The dowels have 100% of the circumference in contact; the beadlock only has the ends and sides in contact.

The advantage I have seen from dowels is the precise fitting of components. USing the DowelMax I have not had any alignment issues nor have I had any squareness problems.

Someone also mentioned that with loose tenons you do not have to be exact on the depth. The same holds rue for dowels - 1/16 extra in each hole is not a propblem at all.

I have only had to take apart a couple of joints and the only way to do it was with the table saw. They hold very well.

[Roger Pozzi]

Thank you guys for the input.
I think that with my expertise (???), I'll go with the BeadLock system for now. The DowelMax is really the top of the line, and I can see it's usefulness. But,,,,, $300.00 compared to $30.00 and my needs,,,,,,,, BeadLock it is.

[Phil Thien]

Lastly - if you cut into a dowel, you would have end grain, but as they are used - aren't they long grain?

Yes, the dowel itself is, but the wood you're joining often isn't. Think of using a dowel to align boards for a panel glue up (to make a table top, for example). The holes into the edges of the boards that the dowel is inserted into are mostly end grain.

Now, I don't think it is as big a deal as people think. Even the joint torture tests that have been performed have shown that glued miter joints with no other reinforcement are incredibly strong.

Still, dowel joints suffer from this end-grain gluing weakness, as well as differential expansion/contraction cycling that has been documented in (I think) a FWW article.

None of that means dowels are bad, I personally think they're great. I just think it is important to know the limitations of any joinery method and to design accordingly.

[John Coloccia]

Dowels are loose tenons, aren't they? You can use as many dowels as you want, just like you can use as many dominoes as you want, for example, and get all the gluing area you could ever want. Assuming the quality of the loose tenon itself is comparable, I don't really think it matters (within reason) what shape the tenon is if all the cross sections are approximately the same.

[Robert Meyer]

I have owned the Beadlock system, a DowelMax, a Mortise Pal, and a mortise machine. All of them worked very well for their intended applications. For ease of use in daily production applications consisting of face frames, and case construction the DowelMax is my favorite. The Beadlock might make a marginally stronger joint, but I always run out of beadstock during daily use, requiring setting up the table router to make more. The Mortise Pal makes very strong joints but is hard for me to balance my hand held router on. I use hardwood dowels with my DowelMax and find joints made with it entirely satisfactory for most work. For chairs and joints requiring very great strength I use M&T joints. For some reason most of my commissions and build requests are hurry up "I need it this week" projects, which better suite the DowelMax. My DowelMax is worth every penny it cost and will out last me. All these systems produce extremely strong joints with the proper glue so arguments over which is better boil down to your individual prejudices and style of working.

[Frank Drew]

For chairs and joints requiring very great strength I use M&T joints.

My experience isn't much better than anecdotal since I never specialized in repair work, but FWIW I've seen a fair amount of dowel-jointed chair failures but few failures, if any, that were mortised and tenoned.

It's really not what happens in the first five or ten years, quality goods should last decades and decades.

[Ray Newman]

Robert Meyer, in your reply you mentioned the “Mortise Pal”. For some reason or another, this jig caught my attention and I am contemplating a purchase. You wrote:

“The Mortise Pal makes very strong joints but is hard for me to balance my hand held router on.”

Can you provide more information as to your problem with “balancing” the router?

I have not seen or handled a Mortise Pal, but I was under the impression from looking at the jig home page -- http://www.mortisepal.com/index.html (http://www.mortisepal.com/index.html) -- and the article in Woodsmith, Vol. 30, No. 176, pp 14-15, that router rides on the mortise templates and -- for want of a better term -- the clamping ears on each side of the template to hold the work. Would a wide sub-base have helped? Appreciate any additional information.

[Tony Bilello]

I have a woodworking business that makes a good amount of the gross from repairs. I have seen all kinds of joints come loose from glue failure. The only joints that I have seen actually break were dowel joints. The only M&T joints that were broken were due to someone in the recent past driving screws or nails through them because they didn't know about glueing. Even at this, the breaks were not clean like in dowel failures. These breaks were more like the mortise and tenon was worn out first from the chair moving back and forth with use and there was no glue to hold it together.

[Mike Henderson]

One problem with dowels is that you have to put a fair number in to equal the same long grain surface area as a tenon. Suppose you use 3/8" dowels and insert them one inch into the wood. The formula for surface area of a cylinder is pi*d*h. Substituting we get 1.78 sq inches per dowel. But only half the dowel, on average, is facing the long grain surface - the other half is facing the end grain, so the long grain to long grain surface area is about 0.589 sq inches per dowel.

Now compare a tenon that's 2" wide and penetrates one inch. It has 4 square inches of long gain to long grain surface area. To get the same long grain to long grain surface area with 3/8" dowels, you have to put in seven dowels. Most chairs put in two dowels.

You can substitute your own numbers and get different comparisons. For example, you could use larger dowels. With half inch dowels, you'd need a bit more than five dowels.

Mike

[Peter Pedisich]

I have a Beadlock (original - not the Rockler version) and it creates strong joints when a little care is taken.
You will need a sharp drill bit, a good clamp, and practice on end grain and side grain to get a feel for how they drill. Patience is rewarded, make sure you keep the drill perpendicular to the face you are drilling, as the jig block can tilt slightly when drilling due to the mounting plate (or 'fence') flexing slightly.
With some care taken, and considering the low cost, it will give you strong joints that you can even pin if you want, and very soon after you will be looking for a more advanced method...
I've built stuff 10 years ago with pocket hole screws and biscuits that is very solid today. I'm not so sure of the next 10 years!:eek: