Tenoning with the shaper

[Stephen Cherry]

Even thought I really was not a very good boy this year, Santa brought me a set of tenoning discs!

Now I need to figure out how to use them. Basically, I want to make mostly 1/4 and 5/16 tenons accurately and quickly, and sometimes bigger. The discs are 8" x 1", with sets of two bolted together, but usable by themselves. Nickers on the inside. It looks like it will be easy enough to use the wixey digital height gauge to get table to bottom nicker height to set the spindle height to correspond to the distance from the show face of the board to the tenon cheek. Tenon thickness with calipers, nicker to nicker, using shims to adjust.

The problem is guarding the cutter, and guiding the wood.

I just picked up a sliding table from the auction-- is this the best way to do it, or else a sled against the fence? Should I get a fence with a continuous strip down the middle? I'll appreciate all the advice I can get, I want a smooth learning curve with this one.

Thanks
Steve

[J.R. Rutter]

I would use a sliding table attachment. I use a miniature one with pneumatic clamps for doing cabinet door copes. Here is a good source of information for larger tenoning setups like yours: http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Shaper_Setups_for_Complex_Joinery.html

[Mike Cruz]

Okay, first things first...you totally suck! You get some of the coolest toys, man. You can't see it now, but I'm just shaking my head...

Anyway, I have NO IDEA what to tell you about how to use those monsters. Hope someone here has used them and has some good advice to give you before you get antsy and just have at it. Waaaaaaait for the advice. THEN dive in. Have fun, Steve.

[Terry Welty]

I built a sled to use with this CMT Tenoning bit for my router. Works great, I'll try to take a picture tomorrow. The bit works great, but you've got the deluxe version.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wVmXHcXnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Steve, purchase or make the tenon hood for your shaper. (It's a larger version of your present shaper hood, since tenon cutters have large diameters.)

I use a sliding table with a hold down clamp and backer board on my shaper, since it has a sliding table.

Have fun, it's a great way to make tenons...........Regards, Rod.

[Bobby Knourek]

Those are definatly tenon heads but you have a few issues....
biggest issue is that they are not designed for a shaper, but a horizontal spindle. (pretty sure, or designed wrong)

the other issue...
The ''knickers'' or spurs are used on cross grain cuts, and the shear cut should be pulling the chip away from the tenon.
(you should at least reverse the top and bottom head.)

I would also consider only using one head on top and one on the bottom if possible, unless your stock is really calling for that must cutting edge.

Thats alot of energy for not having a top bearing support on your spindle.

Be safe.
Bobby.

[Kirk Poore]

Those are definatly tenon heads but you have a few issues....
biggest issue is that they are not designed for a shaper, but a horizontal spindle. (pretty sure, or designed wrong)

the other issue...
The ''knickers'' or spurs are used on cross grain cuts, and the shear cut should be pulling the chip away from the tenon.
(you should at least reverse the top and bottom head.)

I would also consider only using one head on top and one on the bottom if possible, unless your stock is really calling for that must cutting edge.

Thats alot of energy for not having a top bearing support on your spindle.

Be safe.
Bobby.

In addition to Bobby's cautions, I'd make sure your spindle isn't spinning too fast. 8" is a pretty big diameter.

When I do this on my shaper (using 3 wing solid cutters, with spacers and shims) I use a jig that runs in my miter slot to hold the work. You may not have a miter slot to use, of course.

Kirk

[Peter Quinn]

Am I understanding this correctly, you are making 1/4" tenons with an 8"D X 4" tall tenoning stack on a shaper? I appreciate thats a cool toy, but it seems a bit excessive to say the least. I'd second the idea to unbolt those plates and spin the minimum height you can to get the job you need to done. The stack looks right to me, down shear towards the tenon should leave a cleaner surface quality. The chips will be going every where, so up or down won't make much difference in that regard. I guess you need to keep the spindle speed down around 3500rpm to keep the tip speed correct, but that is a 6Z cutter set which indicates a higher feed rate than I would be comfortable using with a manual feed. That stack looks like it belongs to an auto feed machine of some sort. Where the BLEEP did you get those cutters?

Well, it will probably work in any event. I'm no expert on shaper tenons, but you need to make sure the stock is secured against the force of the cutters, which is mostly back and in, but may involve a bit of lift due to the shear. Not sure on that one. I'm talking really secure, because an 8" disk eating a piece of wood it has sucked into the fence won't be too cute. I suppose a sled in a miter slot would work, but that may put your hands a bit closer than I would like to those big disks. I was working on getting the slider working on my own shaper tonight for the very same purpose on a smaller basis. If you have a big enough hood to run a solid fence and back it into the cutters that might add some safety for a sled set up, but I'd probably go to the slider first personally. What kind of shaper are you spinning that on? Looks like an SCMI in the pics.

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks everyone for some great comments. I'm reading, and thinking. I agree, the two heads bolted together was for show and tell, and in normal use only two of the four would be needed. I have done very limited testing on 8/4 wihite oak, long grain, with the power feeder at 3000 rpm on my scmi shaper. These things literally liquefy white oak, great top and bottom cut, with clean cheeks on the tongue. I have not tried anything end grain yet.

I'm scratching my head on the sliding table. Based on everyone's comments, I'm definitely using the table rather than a sled. I've got eccentric clamps. I am also considering using an acme threaded shaft with a motor to feed the table into the cutter.

[Peter Quinn]

Stephen, just curious, is that a 130 with the tenoning table hanging off the side? Seems like you have the right machine for that stack.

[Logan William]

I wouldn't worry about the threaded leadscrew and motor for your table speed, its IMO overkill. I have about a dozen T-130's in the plant I work in that are set up for tenoning and used rather extensively and we have autofeed on one of them, all the others are just hand fed across. We do have some indicator lights driven off a PLC to help the operators get their speed correct, but it doesn't take them too long to get feed speed figured out. If you do want to do some sort of controlled feed I would suggest a Kinechek speed regulating cylinder, much simpler to adjust/mount/use and no motor to worry about. Downside is they're a bit spendy(250 to 400 depending on size/stroke etc) but work great.

[Jamie Buxton]

These things only cut the cheeks and two of the four shoulders, right? So there's some other operation to cut the other shoulders, in exactly the same plane as the ones cut by this cutter? And a third operation to cut the width of the tenon? Or do you have two shapers -- one to cut the cheeks and two shoulders, and the other to cut the remainder of the tenon? Yikes.

[Brad Shipton]

I don't follow Bobby's concerns. The scribers appear correct to me as does the blade cutting directions.

The max. rpm for a 200mm disc in the Garniga catalog is 6200rpm. I have a 10" stack (max. 3500rpm) that I use on my shaper for passage door tenons and it is not a big deal at all, just be safe, pay attention and think before you start. I know of guys that spin far larger (15lb - 20lb stack for windows) than this on a 5 or 7hp shaper.

For a little extra safety you might want to take a look at the Felder website. I am sure you could come up with something similar to their tenon jig without spending $600. In addition to the tenon hood, they have an adjustable cover that clamps to the table and fits over your stock. This device keeps you hands away from the cutter at all times during the cut. The stock must be clamped rigidly. That stack can probably make about a 2.5" tenon, and if your machine is 5hp or better I would not be surprised if you could make the tenon in one pass in a relatively light hardwood. You will be surprised how much force that exerts, and if the stock is not clamped that head will rip that off your table and toss it like nothing.

If you want to do this feeding it in the correct direction you will need a backer. Blowout is a problem. I have on occasion done tenons climb cutting, but I am not very comfortable with that.

A little much for 1/4" tenons, but I assume you are using this as a test run for the future.

You might find some interesting ideas at davidpbest.com. Mr. Best has a nice discussion about tenoning on a shaper and discusses various hood options.

Be safe.
Brad

[Bobby Knourek]

To better explain the direction of the shear and the spur.
The spurs (knicker) only job is to scribe the wood fiber and limit tear out for the chipper or cutter, and when end grain cutting tenons these are not needed and may even hinder the cut.
We design our cutters as they did on the Greenlee, Newton, Millbury, Powermatic etc. tenoning heads where the shear
pulls away from the shoulder of the tenon.
A good clean cut is all about chip flow, and trapping the chips in a shear cut against the shoulder is our concern.

p.s. we replace bent spindles if you ever need them.(just send us a sample.)

Bobby.

As far as the safety concern we know it has been done before with success by some for many years...
we hear this alot and are sure that it has. But the concern is real that shown is a BIG pile of cutters that even with their
full body limited cut, can be quite agressive and stress the spindle and we would recomend an outboard bearing.

[Brad Shipton]

Bobby, my tenon head is actually a multi-purpose cutter so it has straight blades. I have found the scribers to be very helpful since they lead the cut ever so slightly and help to sever the fibers that tearout otherwise. The little knick left behind can sometimes be bothersome.

I do agree that it would be better to use a tenoning machine. There has been the rare occassion where my air clamp pressure is not quite high enough and I have seen the stock move a small amount. I do use a backer behind the stock, but since the table is aluminum I can't tighten it as much as one would always like.

Brad

[Joe Calhoon]

I don't think these are tenon heads for the horizontal shaft of a tenoner. The horizontals can be that large of diameter and have a lot of Z but usually have a large recess for the lock nut so they clear the scribe cut. Do you have the brand name? They look like European made heads. I am not familiar with US style horizontal tenon heads.

If they are Euro manufacture they usually have the max RPM stamped on them. Also they will say MAN or MEC. The MAN type is designed for manual feed like a shaper with a sliding table or a non motorized table single end tenoner. The MEC or mechanical feed is designed for moulders, double and single powered table tenoners and window machines. If it is the MAN type it is safe to run on shapers.

If you run on a shaper a sliding table is better for these size cutters and a good clamp system is needed because the tendency is for the cutters to pull the stock in. Most heavy duty Euro shapers will take up to a 250mm diameter head inside the standard fence. Larger than that requires a tenon hood and some type of stop to butt the end of the stock up against.

The guards Brad mentioned are a good idea for safety.

If these are shaper heads you do need the incisor spurs. We have run 250 to 320mm diameter tenon heads on the shaper and vertical shaft of our tenoner with no issues. You just need a little caution.

Joe

[Bobby Knourek]

Be aware that the stampings on ANY tool for MAX.RPM is manytimes based on the balance and safety check
done on that tool...not necesarily a recomendation of what rpm to use.

[Mike Konobeck]

Nice new toy and more power to you for taking the plunge. I have the whole setup for my Felder and need to make some tenons but have been a big chicken to turn that much steel. I will set it up soon. I like the shear cutters on your setup. That should help clean up the cut since you are taking off so much material.

PM me if you want a picture of the Felder setup. As mentioned, the nice thing about their setup is the aux guard that will keep my hands away from the spinning steel. Here are the three main components:

http://www.felder-tooling.us/zubehor/frasmaschinen-zubehor/zapf-schlitzzubehor.html

For the cost of these setups it is hard to justify unless you are doing a lot of tenons. If I didn't get it as part of a used machine purchase I would have been using the money to buy the Leigh FMT Pro or other dedicated M&T jig.

[Stephen Cherry]

Thanks again everyone for your responses! I'm still reading, and thinking of exactly how to do it. I'm shooting to have my first tenon cut by the end of the weekend. Luckily, I've got a big pile of stuff to grab parts from. Pics and a full report to follow.