Hand Planes instead of mechanical jointer??

[Mike Kelsey]

I have been setting up my shop for the past year - getting a Jet table saw, BS in the near future & was planning on getting an 8" jointer. Then I started reading about hand planes and became fascinated by them for the functionality, tradition, body connection and comparable lack of noise.

So I have decided to use hand planes for my jointing. I was originally looking at the Woodriver planes to save money but am leaning toward Lie-Nielsen. Because of cost I was considering the low-angle jack #62. Since LN also sells a "package" for it for $500 with different blades I thought this would be the starter way to go (Also suggested as a budget approach in the recent issue of Fine Wood Working. But after a lengthy conversation with a fellow at LN, getting a LN jointer and a smoother and also a lessor quality jack to begin with, as I was told a jack for doing rough take down doesn't have to be as precise a tool.

Any opinions about the best initial purchase approach appreciated.

[Brian Kent]

Hi Mike.

I have an 8" jointer but I use planes most of the time. I am not doing production work and enjoy hand planes. If I was going for volume work or large work using rough lumber I would use the jointer more often than planes. My table saw with a good blade does fine for a ready to glue cut.

I have not used Woodriver, so I have no reference point on those. I have an old Stanley #7, a long shop-made edge jointer, and a Lee Valley bevel up jack plane. The Lee Valley is fun to use, but I need the #7 for longer boards. Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and old Stanleys are all excellent, especially if you know that the Stanley is already flat in the sole.

I do not think you need the $500 set. A Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley plane with one or two extra blades for steeper angles will do you just fine. A bevel up jack from either one is very versatile. a bevel up jointer plane handles the longer stuff well.

Have a lot of fun on your research, purchase and a lifetime of use.

[Jim Koepke]

My LN #62 is great for shooting end grain, but for most of my jointing and smoothing tasks the bevel down planes are preferred. My projects are mostly soft woods so that could be part of the consideration.

You might try getting a #5 Stanley/Bailey type plane for the "rough" work and see if you can tune it into a fine smoother. If you have the patience to rehabilitate old planes, you can save a lot of money. Some of my old Bailey's may not be as nice as a new LN or LV plane, but they can still give a very nice, needs no sanding, surface.

For jointing, you may want to just get the LN #7 or #8. That would give you a benchmark for comparison if you do decide to try tuning up some old planes.

jtk

[Stephen Pereira]

I use both..I have a 6" Delta jointer that works OK for most of my projects. A case in point..I needed to join some 80" bed rails good enough for a glue up..started out with 8' QS ash that had a pronounced bow..too long for my 6" jointer..more hand planing than I wanted to do..so I used a router with a flush trim bit and 8' particle board shelving for a straight edge. The router/flush trim bit got me reasonably close. I then used my Stanley#8 plane to complete the job. As an aside..I purchased the #8 for $60.00 from a gentleman who sells used planes over the internet. I love that plane.

So..I use whatever tool or combination of tools I have to do the job most effectively.

[Paul Incognito]

I'm with Stephen on this.
When I'm doing production work the hand planes don't get used much. But when I'm building things for myself I enjoy the peace and quiet of not using the machines.
Is the work you're doing for yourself or are you working on comissions trying to make a living?
PI

[neil schlosser]

I think it really depends on what kind of work you're planning on doing. I'm a high school shop teacher, so I have a fair selection of older tools to work with, as well as some hand planes, and I really prefer to have both around. I work from rough cut lumber, and I use the jointer plenty. Sometimes I'll end up with a really wild board, and I'm just too lazy to spend too much time flattening it completely by hand, so I use the 8" jointer. I usually end up going over jointed edges and faces with a plane, but the jointer is really valuable in that it speeds up my work considerably.

That said, I would be tempted to give up the jointer for some quality handplanes. I'm building a garage that will house my own shop right now, and I'll probably be without a lot of power tools when it is complete (shooting for just having a good 18" band saw as the lone power tool) and I'd like to fill the remaining power tool void with quality tools, and I've really been leaning toward LN or Veritas at this point in time. The noise really gets to me after a while, and I can't stand the dust, either.

Anyway, make your decision on how you want to work. You can't go wrong with Lie Nielsen. Very nice tools, and hold their value very well.

[Matt Benton]

Due to my shortage of space, I am using hand planes (LN LA jack, Stanley 7) instead of a jointer, although I'll always have a planer...

[Prashun Patel]

I can't imagine being without either. A handplane CAN flatten a wider board than an 8" jointer, but there's a steep learning curve. Plan to invest in proper sharpening equipment if you choose to go this route.

Personally, I have found the learning curve for hand jointing boards to be higher - and it's a lot more work - than starting at the smaller end of the plane world (blocks and smoothers). If you are not proficient with those, I think you might be in for some frustration starting at the jointing side.

[Michael Peet]

Everything I do is hobby. I don't own and have never used a power jointer, but am putting my #7 through a workout building my roubo. I am almost done with the top at this point, but I spent a long time doing this:

176241

I'm not sure I am advocating this approach for anyone else, but it works for me.

Mike

[Mac Houtz]

I purchased a stanley bailey #8 at a tool sale a couple of years before I really had any idea about how to use handplanes. I bought it because it was in immaculate condition and the price was 25 dollars.
After I had it for a year, I got tired of screwing around with my #$*@#$% jointer that I could never seem to adjust properly, and I learned how to edge joint with that plane.

At this point, it might be my favorite tool. I keep it razor sharp and only use it for edge jointing and finishing up face jointing after I have hogged off most of the wasted with my #5.

I would love to have a LN #7 or #8, but I am so glad that I bought this one first and learned how to use it. I think when the time comes i will buy the LN #7, because buying a new #8 just wouldnt feel right. You can usually find bailey 8's on ebay for $150.00 or less. Even if it needs some cleaning and tuning, that work is well worth the understanding it should give you about the tool itself, how its put together, and how it works.

I still use(attempt to use, its a sears 6") my jointer occasionally, but I do 95% of my jointing with planes.

[David Weaver]

If I were doing the work for pay, I would use a power jointer and power thicknessing and clean up the boards with a smooth plane.

If I'm doing it in my own shop, I use hand planes only for jointing and for small things, thicknessing, too. Longer boards of commodity woodworking (like making a bookshelf), I'll face and edge joint with planes, but thickness with a power planer - nobody is going to care if it was thicknessed with a power planer, and since it's not "fancy" work, I would rather whip all of the boards through a power planer and get consistent thickness quickly.

[Chris Fournier]

I would recommend neither one nor the other but both unless you intend to do only very small projects.

Handplanes are very enjoyable to use and very effective as well - that is until you've got a mountain of parts to dimension, then the romantic craftsman becomes the ragged labourer.

While I've always had a stationary jointer I have tackled certain jobs with my handplanes instead because it was a better process or because I simply wanted to enjoy the handplane experience. Part of the enjoyment was being able to choose if you know what I mean.

You likely have a limited amount of time to be in your shop and I would bet that when you are in your shop part of logic for spending time there is that you are producing things. Machines will help you produce and they'll do the heavy lifting for you so that you can pick up the hand tools to lavish your attention on the details and finished surfaces.

I find it funny that people often ask the same question that you have but I've never seen a posting: "should I buy a table saw or rip and cross cut panel saws?" Truth is there's as much satisfaction to be had using handsaws effectively as handplanes but no one seems to want to get old school when it comes to sawing.

[Charles Wiggins]

Mike,

I'm no expert, but I am finishing up reading Schwarz's Handplane Essentials and he states that, practically speaking, he uses a combination of hand planes and machines. In a lot of cases he will do most of his planing and jointing with machines, and then grab a smoothing plane to prep the surface for finish. Other operations, like leveling a bench top, are just better done with hand planes. The other big take away I got was that if you're going to buy brand new production planes it's best to go with Lie-Nielson, Veritas (Lee Valley), or Clifton. These are the least likely to require fettling to make them usable and accurate. You can save a lot of money buying ad restoring vintage planes, but there's an extra learning curve and time involved with that whole process.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... but am leaning toward Lie-Nielsen. Because of cost I was considering the low-angle jack #62. Since LN also sells a "package" for it for $500 with different blades I thought this would be the starter way to go (Also suggested as a budget approach in the recent issue of Fine Wood Working. ...

I always recommend the LN 62 for a first plane, mainly because it will do everything you need to do from wood prep through jointing through smoothing; and it works out of the box. As you learn more about what you want to do and how to do it, you can gradually replace various functions. Say you want a quality smoother (the 62 is a bit too long for all smoothing jobs), then buy a smoother and continue to use the 62 for other tasks.

Pam

[Mike Kelsey]

I've found the comments so far to be quite fruitful. My exploration into deciding upon a jointing method has opened up some realizations which lead to the Topic question:

I originally was going to get a 6" jointer - new or used they were/are readily economically available in my area. But as I searched the forums I kept hearing "get an 8" you'll regret it later if you don't". So I finally adjusted my budget upward for an 8" (had to be new, as used 8 inchers are really rare in this area. (And of course I was also hearing that you can never have a big enough jointer - get a 12" and so on...).

After reading an article on hand planes I realized some of the missing components in my shop setup. As Neil above stated, the noise of machinery does get to me also at times. I've worked in heavy construction most of my life & even here on the homestead I'm always dealing with chainsaws, tractor etc in the woods. In the shop, wearing face masks & hearing protection gets to be a drag. The other component is "slow time". (I'm not intending to do production work). Taking "more" time to do things is becoming more important to me the older I get. Even though I'll continue to use power machinery, using muscle powered tools entices me for those reasons and more..

I may still get a jointer but it may be a cost-effective 6 incher, as well as the hand planes - full circle with a twist I guess.

[David Weaver]

There is one other element. Dimensioning and preparing rough lumber by hand is good exercise, probably better than a large percentage of the population would otherwise get. It goes from being something that wears you out quickly to something you can do for a long duration fairly quickly, and at that point, if it doesn't put you in pain outside of the shop, it's probably productive.

[Jim Paulson]

Mike,
I love working with hand planes, and often reach for one in my shop. I think that this has been a great discussion. That said you might want to check out the new delta 6 inch. Professional jointer. I got one recently and it is plenty nice for me. The closed stand is sweet for hooking up a dust collector too.

Take care,
Jim

[James Phillips]

I just sold my jointer and changed to hand planes. It does take a little longer, but I really enjoy it. I also am not limited to a 6 in board. I do still use my power planer to thickness. A "Full set" of hand planes makes the job easier though. I have a #4, #5, #6, #7 and a scrub. They all get significant use.

[Rick Erickson]

Mike, LN's advice is sound. If you are very confident in your path down the hand plane route buy three planes to start with. Buy a good smoother (4 or 4 1/2), a good jointer (7 or 8 - I much prefer the 8) and a less expensive jack (Stanley 5 or so, WoodRiver) or a scrub for initial dimensioning/thicknessing. If you don't have sharpening experience you MUST NOT overlook that. You will get frustrated in a hurry with your planes if you don't know how to sharpen effectively and quickly (especially if you don't have power tools). You can easily get by without a power jointer. Living without a power planer would be a little more difficult (IMO). The skill of flattening a board just enough to run it through a planer is easily aquired. However, as others have said, flattening and final dimensioning of a board using hand planes (very enjoyable) takes some time to learn.

On the other hand, if you aren't confident in the handplane route the LN LA jack is a great place to start. It's less expensive and as the name implies a jack of all trades. Plus, it is a very easy plane to learn on (doesn't have the complexity of the BD planes). If you later decide to add to your arsenal you can easily sell this plane (or use it to shoot with).

[Mike Kelsey]

I'm leaning toward Rick's suggestion but was wondering if I go that route & bought the planes over time which one first? Also as far as the LN 62 goes I take it it's better to NOT invest in the $500 set unless I don't plan to upgrade?

[Jim R Edwards]

I primarlily use power tools for rough work and hand planes for everything else. I do not use my jointer though. I use a Clifton #7 or a Stanley #8 for jointing and my LVBUJ for rough work if needed. The advice to buy a LN plane is very good as they are an outstanding company but they are not the only premium hand plane makers. Lee Valley and Clifton are also outstanding planes and for slightly less than the cost of a 8 inch jointer you buy the Lee Valley bevel up series smoother, jack, jointer plus a Lie Nielsen 60 1/2R block rabeting plane. With these four planes you can do anything an 8 inch jointer can do plus a whole lot more.

[Pam Niedermayer]

...Also as far as the LN 62 goes I take it it's better to NOT invest in the $500 set unless I don't plan to upgrade?

That option was not available when I bought mine some years ago; but I can say that on the 'bay LN items sell for almost new prices, so it's unlikely that you'd ever lose much if you decided to sell pieces of such a set.

Pam

[Rick Erickson]

I'm leaning toward Rick's suggestion but was wondering if I go that route & bought the planes over time which one first? Also as far as the LN 62 goes I take it it's better to NOT invest in the $500 set unless I don't plan to upgrade?

Well Mike - that is yet another path :-). If you knew you were going to stick with handplanes and slowly (say once a year) add to your collection I would take a different path. Initially I said to buy a used (cheap) No. 5. and buy a nice smoother and jointer. In this case though, I would start with the LN 5 1/2. If I could own just one plane it would be this one (short of a block plane). If you start used/cheap and that is your first plane experience it may turn you off to using them. There are some very nice used Stanleys out there and with some experience/setup time they perform great. But as a starter I personally wouldn't recommend them. Of course this is all assuming you have the $s to buy the nicer equpiment. If not go for the Stanley No. 5. Such easy decisions :-). Also, look at John C's (active) thread. He just bought a 5 1/2 and after some initial sharpening trials he seems very happy.

Also, depending on where you live there are several Creekers who would be glad to have you over to show off their arsenal and help you decide. There is no substitute for trying them out for yourself.

[James Taglienti]

I would not be a very happy guy without my powered jointer. i would also probably be broke.

If i ever had to make a choice between a LN #8 and a powered jointer... it would be an easy one.

well you could buy a stanley #8, have it surface ground, and pick up a used powered jointer or maybe grizzlys new home shop cabinet jointer and still about break even.

[Rick Erickson]

James, not to derail this thread but I'm interested in what you get out of your powered jointer that you can't get out of a #8 (within a few minutes of time)? Of course if you are doing this for a living that would be a different story (as your comment may have suggested). I find initially flattening a board to run it through a planer to be just a few minutes of time (especially with boards only 6" wide (or maybe 8").

[James Taglienti]

its so much faster! not to mention nearly idiot proof which was a big selling point for me:p also when the piece is done and ready for finish any evidence of machines is long gone.

[Bill Gillean]

As a fellow beginner, I'll throw in my two cents.

I think Pam's suggestion of the LN LAJ No. 62 as a good first plane is a good one. It really is a "jack of all trades." Also, as many have said, if you decide you don't like it there is a ready market to sell to.

I would also second the comments on sharpening. Without this skill, handplanes are virtually useless.

I have found the Charlesworth videos on sharpening to be very helpful and effective in getting me started. I started as a complete beginner and after the videos I can adequately sharpen plane blades and chisels.

I use the Shapton glass stones and I flatten those with a DMT diamond stone.

What do you plan to use for sharpening?

Bill

[Mike Kelsey]

Here's what I'm looking at as of now: LN #8, LN #4 (or 4 1/2) and a Woodriver Jack. As to sharpening I plan on using my Worksharp 3000 and/or Grizzly wet grinder.

For starters, I have a solid wood 2' x 6' table (which looks like fir on the under side) over 2" thick with a veneer on top. It has a slight crown on it. I would like to use this as a work bench, so after removing the veneer I thought I'd use the planes on it. I also have several old long 4"x12" planks in nice shape I look forward to smoothing out for various projects..... This has been a great discussion!





Well Mike - that is yet another path :-). If you knew you were going to stick with handplanes and slowly (say once a year) add to your collection I would take a different path. Initially I said to buy a used (cheap) No. 5. and buy a nice smoother and jointer. In this case though, I would start with the LN 5 1/2. If I could own just one plane it would be this one (short of a block plane). If you start used/cheap and that is your first plane experience it may turn you off to using them. There are some very nice used Stanleys out there and with some experience/setup time they perform great. But as a starter I personally wouldn't recommend them. Of course this is all assuming you have the $s to buy the nicer equpiment. If not go for the Stanley No. 5. Such easy decisions :-). Also, look at John C's (active) thread. He just bought a 5 1/2 and after some initial sharpening trials he seems very happy.

Also, depending on where you live there are several Creekers who would be glad to have you over to show off their arsenal and help you decide. There is no substitute for trying them out for yourself.

[Jim Koepke]

after removing the veneer I thought I'd use the planes on it.

You may find the old glue a bit rough on your blades.

This is one of those times buying a cheap paint scraper or a yard sale jack plane may save your good tools.

You do not want to use sandpaper before planing. The grit from the sandpaper left in the wood can cause problems to your planes.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Mike, if you're not averse to the bevel up world, I suggest you at least look at bevel up smoother and low angle jack from Veritas. I have both, and appreciate the interchangeability of the blades. Further, the set screws that line up the blade in the mouth make resetting the blade easier. They are both exceptionally smooth and are reputedly (I cannot vouch) on par with the LN's.

[Rick Erickson]

Great plan Mike! I second what Jim said. PLEASE don't use those planes (at least the LN ones) on that glue. Use the WoodRiver as a scrub plane (put a nice camber on the blade) and traverse the grain (after removing the laminate) first. You will beat up the iron but that is what that plane is for. If you don't have a grinder that may be in your near future :-). After you are sure no glue is left hit it with the #8 to flatten (diagonally and then with the grain). Then the 4 1/2 at the end. In case you haven't see it Christopher Schwarz has a great DVD on the steps to flatten a board with hand planes. If you are just starting out it is a great video to watch.

In terms of the sharpening, I never had success with my Worksharp or my Tormek in getting a really sharp edge. I sold both and bought a grinder and Shapton stones. No problem at all now. I'm not saying you can't do it - I'm sure others on this forum have had great success with theirs. I may not have had the patience to deal with it :-). I say this because if you find your planes aren't performing don't get discouraged (there are other sharpening options). Sharpening is a necesary skill and IMO the number one killer to people abandoning most hand tools and going back to power.

[Jake Rothermel]

Holy cow I cannot agree with Rick's last statements enough. I freely admit that if space were not such a limitation in my home shop I may very well have gone to powered jointers and planers out of sheer frustration with my hand planes (vis-a-vie my sharpening skills...). I'm happy to say that I'm improving; but slowly. I honestly don't mind the time it's taking for me to get better because it's a skill I want to learn and hand planes are tools I want to use. That said, you too could easily become frustrated with using your hand planes, never realizing it may actually be a sharpening problem and fall back to the tempting ease of power tools.

"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice." You know, that's not actually a dig at anyone who uses power tools, I just couldn't resist the Star Wars reference... ::grin::
jake

[Mike Kelsey]

My Woodriver jack plane should be arriving tomorrow as well as the Ol Bastard Scraper for removing glue & Lumber Wizard metal detector. I'm getting ready to place the LN order but going back & forth on the #7 vs #8.


Is there a real noticeable difference in effort (or calories burnt :-) ) when using them over long periods of time?

Will the #8 flatten a piece quicker because of the added blade size & planer weight ?

Is the #8 something to "work up to" compared to the #7?

What would be the advantage of the blade changeability on the #7, if I get the 4 1/2 as planned?

Thanks for the help.

[John A. Callaway]

Well Mike - that is yet another path :-). If you knew you were going to stick with handplanes and slowly (say once a year) add to your collection I would take a different path. Initially I said to buy a used (cheap) No. 5. and buy a nice smoother and jointer. In this case though, I would start with the LN 5 1/2. If I could own just one plane it would be this one (short of a block plane). If you start used/cheap and that is your first plane experience it may turn you off to using them. There are some very nice used Stanleys out there and with some experience/setup time they perform great. But as a starter I personally wouldn't recommend them. Of course this is all assuming you have the $s to buy the nicer equpiment. If not go for the Stanley No. 5. Such easy decisions :-). Also, look at John C's (active) thread. He just bought a 5 1/2 and after some initial sharpening trials he seems very happy.

Also, depending on where you live there are several Creekers who would be glad to have you over to show off their arsenal and help you decide. There is no substitute for trying them out for yourself.

I am . Thanks to the help of this forum and some encouragement.... I have I plane I WILL NEVER PART WITH.

[Jim Koepke]

For the longest time I was content with a #7. Then another #7 came my way and a tool dealer made me an offer on a #8 that I just could not refuse. Sold one of the #7s and now, most of the time the #8 gets the work.

As far as interchangeability of blades and frogs, it sounds good, but I am not sure if people really do these changes much. I know at times I have changed blades between planes when one gets dull, but that just means there are two blades that need sharpening. I don't do that so much any more.

There is a bit more than a pound and a half difference between the two. That and the extra wood being removed does make using the #8 a bit more work. If a lot of flat work is being done the #8 can finish the job with a few less passes.

This is where the LN Tool Events are so helpful, you can try a plane at the event and see if one works better for you.

I do not recall you saying where you are located. You may live near someone who would welcome you to try their tools.

jtk

[john brenton]

First off, that quote by Loncoln is my absolute favorite. Whenever someone or some website asks for my favorite quote that's the one I give. Although you've paraphrased yours a bit I think.

Secondly, so true on the learning curve. You can't just run a plane on the wood and expect it to be flat, no matter whether you go from side to side, corner to opposite corner, etc. Just hogging out and taking full length shavings means nothing. Planing a piece of relatively flat lumber is one thing, but flattening a twisted board is quite another. When I first started I might have bushels of shavings on the floor and have the board still not be flat. Then I'd rethink it, attack it again....and have it be worse!! It still happens to me occasionally, but not like it used to. You need to think about what you're doing.


I can't imagine being without either. A handplane CAN flatten a wider board than an 8" jointer, but there's a steep learning curve. Plan to invest in proper sharpening equipment if you choose to go this route.

Personally, I have found the learning curve for hand jointing boards to be higher - and it's a lot more work - than starting at the smaller end of the plane world (blocks and smoothers). If you are not proficient with those, I think you might be in for some frustration starting at the jointing side.

Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe - Abraham Lincoln

[Rick Erickson]

Mike, I think Jim summed it up well. Both the LN 7 and 8 are awesome planes. Only you can decide. I can tell you my preference is absolutely the No. 8 but some find it too heavy. The heavier/wider/longer the better for me and I'm not that big/strong. Wax the sole and get it started and it won't stop. For the extra $50 you are getting a lot more plane. And as a hobbiest I'm not using it ALL day. If you are you need to reevaluate your workflow. I have a smaller scrub (and sometimes a no. 5) doing most of the work and they are very lightweight. The jointer hits the wood for just a few minutes / board. Truth be told I also have a power planer that I use on most projects for final flattening/thicknessing.

[Bob Jones]

Wow, lots of discussion.
I sold a nice 6 in Jet jointer a few months ago and I have not looked back (it worked just fine).
My problems with it -
You need 16ft of clear space to run long boards through.
Mine was not easy to properly set the blades so I did not get great results
Even freshly sharpened blades would get significant tearout regardless of direction I pushed it through
The 6in was not wide enough for the work I like to do.
Buy a 8 in jointer or don't buy one.

Handplanes
Slower, but you are unlimited in the size of the boards you can flatten. They require a bit of skill to sharpen, but not much. Get the Veritas jig, so glass, and some sandpaper from TFWW.
Relaxing
Removes less wood to get the boards flat.
Spend most of the time at my wonderful workbench. Ahhh.
Watch the wood go from rough and ugly to smooth and pretty right below your hands. Fun stuff.

I am a slow moving hobbiest who takes rough cut lumber to final finishing using mostly 3 old Stanley handplanes #4, #5, #8. I would be just as happy with a 4 1/2, 5 1/2, and 7. I could do everything with the #5, a good straightedge, and a couple of blades with different cambers.
If you get old planes buy from reputable sources so they will come to you FLAT then buy the Hock blades.

I prefer the bevel down planes for general work because I use cambered irons on all of mine. I do own the LV BU Jack and I really like it as Plane #4 for shooting end grain (mostly).
Good luck!