a belated christmas gloat

[John A. Callaway]

well... No thanks to the bad storm up north... my crhistmas present has arrived today. I can't wait to put it to work... :)

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2784.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2785.jpg

The No. 5 1/2

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2787.jpg

I also got the set of three japanese saws that LV sells .... and a saddle square and a mitre square to finish out the LV marker set... just didnt snap photos of them new at the in laws...

[gary Zimmel]

You are going to love that plane John. Congrats...

[Dan Andrews]

If that plane works as good as it looks (and I hear they do), You are in business! You must have been a very good boy this year.

[Gary Benson]

John,
If the shop were on fire, that plane would be the first item I would grab before running to safety. I use mine for nearly every bench planing task.
Congrats,
Gary

[Rick Erickson]

John,
If the shop were on fire, that plane would be the first item I would grab before running to safety. I use mine for nearly every bench planing task.
Congrats,
Gary

Nice Gary. It would be a hard choice between my family photos and my LN 5 1/2. It is an absolute joy to use. It is the perfect size/weight for almost any task.

[John A. Callaway]

well I am a little confused...maybe a tad frustrated.... It wont take a consistent shaving in a completely flat piece of walnut. Maybe I am just tired and should wait until tomorrow before I mess with it. The blade needs a final honing. The mouth was set so tight it wouldnt let any shaving of any thickness come through... so I had to move the frog back about a half a millimeter or so.... Light wouldnt even pass.... much less a shaving. When I got it to start cutting ... it would only grab a very thick shaving.... when I tried for a fluffy thin shaving it wouldnt even catch the board and start a shaving.

I guess my point is that my plane isnt ready to put to work out the box.... I think....

I dont know. Its been a long day today. I will start fresh with it tomorrow.

Dont get me wrong. I love the tool... I know it will work just fine. Maybe I am off my game tonight. This is one of those days where you just know to leave the bench and go relax.

[David Weaver]

Go over it and check that everything is tight and then sharpen it. It'll work. Make the mouth wide open, and make sure you're not getting a jamup of the shavings under the chipbreaker or anything. Sharp is really important.

The Lie Nielsen bench planes are really superb, and the 5 1/2 is a really nice one in the bunch - really nice feeling and very useful.

The only planes I've had that are really ready (sharp) out of the box have been some mujingfangs, but others of the same brand have needed tweaking more than sharpening, too.

[John A. Callaway]

well.... I went through the thing. I pulled out the water stones, and a file. I rounded the corners down the Schwarz way... kept the factory bevel and polished that blade up to a mirror finish. I moved the frog back open wide and started from there... got it to do a lot better... and I kept gradually tightening up the mouth till I got about the same as my jointer plane... a little under an 1/8 of light passing through the sole with the blade set to cut...I can get a good thick shaving with it in pine, walnut, and cherry.... but when I go to take a smooth thin shaving in all of those.... I can get a good shaving on the outside edges of the blade....And is not leaving plane tracks in the wood on either side of the blade..... but it isnt cutting in the middle... I know the plane iron is ground square.... but I am stumped....

The shooting board. Maybe the HAF or another blade with a different angle.... but it just chattered across walnut and pine.... would not take a shaving....and I tried turn the depth adjuster a hair at a time it went from not cutting to straight out digging in and getting stuck....

This probably has more to do with my lack of experience.... but I am open for suggestions... I will have to give tech support a call or something. My old number 8 with a original iron is easier to set up for a super fine shaving than my new LN.

It is a hurdle ... I will figure it out... or rather learn at some point.... But honestly.... this is getting a bit discouraging. These things are supposed to be a benchmark to compare and fettle your old planes to imitate results with... and I am missing it... this plane wasnt out of the box ready.

I am not ever going to bad mouth LN nor will I talk bad about the tool.... because I am sure it is operator error.... but I dont know what the error is in order to correct it.

[Jim Koepke]

well.... I went through the thing. I pulled out the water stones, and a file. I rounded the corners down the Schwarz way... kept the factory bevel and polished that blade up to a mirror finish. I moved the frog back open wide and started from there... got it to do a lot better... and I kept gradually tightening up the mouth till I got about the same as my jointer plane... a little under an 1/8 of light passing through the sole with the blade set to cut...I can get a good thick shaving with it in pine, walnut, and cherry.... but when I go to take a smooth thin shaving in all of those.... I can get a good shaving on the outside edges of the blade....And is not leaving plane tracks in the wood on either side of the blade..... but it isnt cutting in the middle... I know the plane iron is ground square.... but I am stumped....

The shooting board. Maybe the HAF or another blade with a different angle.... but it just chattered across walnut and pine.... would not take a shaving....and I tried turn the depth adjuster a hair at a time it went from not cutting to straight out digging in and getting stuck....

This probably has more to do with my lack of experience.... but I am open for suggestions... I will have to give tech support a call or something. My old number 8 with a original iron is easier to set up for a super fine shaving than my new LN.

It is a hurdle ... I will figure it out... or rather learn at some point.... But honestly.... this is getting a bit discouraging. These things are supposed to be a benchmark to compare and fettle your old planes to imitate results with... and I am missing it... this plane wasnt out of the box ready.

I am not ever going to bad mouth LN nor will I talk bad about the tool.... because I am sure it is operator error.... but I dont know what the error is in order to correct it.


Did you check the sole of the plane to make sure it is flat?

Even in the best makers facility an occasional mistake slips through. So, it may not be operator error. The good thing is no matter what the problem, LN will make it right.

Do you have another plane that uses the same size blade in order to test the blade in another plane or to use its blade in the new plane?

jtk

[John A. Callaway]

here is where I am now with the set up. This is my honing work with 4k and 8k waterstones and how the plane is currently set up ...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2791.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2789.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2790.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2798.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2792.jpg

here are some shaving with Cherry, walnut, and southern yellow pine... the walnut shaving was cut a little thinner, in a different piece of walnut than what I originally started cutting into

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2797.jpg

and this is that small piece of walnut that I spent about 15 minutes with on one side.... I used the plane to flatten and smooth it all in one setting ....

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2795.jpg

So am I expecting to much out of this... or am I missing something. This plane is so well built.... but so hard to push across a piece of dry walnut no more than 8 inches long....

Suggestions... tips, or should I stop expecting miracles.... I am truly pleased with the lack of plane tracks. The way the frog and lateral adjuster work on these tools is nothing short of amazing. I guess what I am wondering is.... why doesnt this plane glide along effortlessly across the wood....? I have seen videos and clips of these tools in the hands of people who know what they are doing and It seems like I am having a much harder time with it....

[John A. Callaway]

the sole is dead flat. I dont have a machinist straight edge.... but to every rule I have it is flat. Hadnt thought to see if the blade will swap with my number 8 yet....

[David Weaver]

It will not swap with a #8 iron.

I can't see the very edge of the iron to tell if it's polished all the way to the edge on both sides, the microbevel that appears to be on it (if there is one) is very small.

Get a loupe or magnifying glass and make sure the polish goes all the way to the bleeding edge. The shavings look OK, but it is hard to tell at that thickness if you are at peak sharpness, a plane that is really not that sharp will cut continuous shavings. The board looks good, but evidence of sharpness will be there in the polish of the wood - everything that is not pores will be reflective, and the light is raking, but it is not in a complementary view to the camera (i'm not suggesting you do that, though, or all we will see is a bright spot if you have a good polish on the wood).

Go to a hardware store or a department store or a grocery store and go to the canning section and get some gulf/paraffin/canning wax. It will cut the friction on the sole to a small fraction of what it likely is now (if you haven't done that already).

There are two planes that are hard to push:
* a dull plane
* a heavy plane that's still sharp but that has a very flat sole and one without any wax on it at all

An iron has to be pretty dull in a 2 thousandth or less cut to be causing a lot more resistance than the sole of the plane, especially if you're bearing down on the plane as it gets harder to push.

[Jim Koepke]

Suggestions... tips, or should I stop expecting miracles.... I am truly pleased with the lack of plane tracks. The way the frog and lateral adjuster work on these tools is nothing short of amazing. I guess what I am wondering is.... why doesnt this plane glide along effortlessly across the wood....? I have seen videos and clips of these tools in the hands of people who know what they are doing and It seems like I am having a much harder time with it....

If you watch one of the LN plane demos in person you will know why it looks so effortless. Deneb Puchalski may out weigh me, but his weight is in his arms and shoulders, not in his belly and back side like me.

Have you tried rubbing a little candle wax on the bottom of your plane?

Another thought from looking at your pictures, if there is a back bevel on your blade or if it is not equally sharp all the way across, it will look square, but it will not cut clean like a properly sharpened blade.

jtk

[John A. Callaway]

yeah... I just watching the LN you tube videos with Deneb.... And I have caught a few things... One, I did not hone out a microbevel... So that is gonna happen soon.... Secondly... I need to actually flatten out my stones with some sandpaper and my marble plate.... that could very well be one big issue.... Secondly.... I really should go and get me a chunk of paraffin wax to see what that will do.

First though. Flatten my stones ...that hasnt been done since I bought them in January.... not properly anyway. So that may change things up. I do see shapton stones in my very near future.

It is amazing I have two very popluar books on sharpening and have read them both.... and I think I may just be so impatient to get the tool to work that I am overlooking simple but necessary things that make it work properly. A few days at work on the railroad and some patience would do me good right now.

Stay tuned. I will keep you guys up to date on what I can come up with.

thanks so far though.

[Don C Peterson]

Hang in there. Sharpening is the key, but it also has a bit of a learning curve. My $.02 is that I would encourage you not to get too wrapped around STUFF for sharpening, you can achieve good results with pretty minimal investment, and making a big investment in sharpening stuff will not produce miracles.

[David Weaver]

Put one microbevel on the bevel of the iron at 5 degrees steeper than the primary bevel - do it with a honing guide and only your polishing stone (you can get away with this the first time).

Turn it over and use the ruler trick on the other side. Do it until you see "shiny" going all the way to the edge of the iron all the way across.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00177.asp

There may be a video of someone doing it on youtube or something, I don't know.

Ignore the criticism from people that it is not a pure sharpening method or some other such BS.

And do flatten your finishing stone before you do it.

If you do it properly, and your stone is a 6000 stone or better, the hair should fly off your arm and the edge should stick in the surface of your fingernail easily.

You can worry about all of the technicalities of sharp later, and what method you want to choose. That is the easiest way for you to get there at this point and experience what it is so you know when an iron is or is not sharp.

[John A. Callaway]

well.... Its not about buying more stuff.... but these king stones are literally about 1/8 of an inch wider than this LN iron.... and my number 8 iron is about a 1/2 inch wider than the stone. Makes it a little tough to sharpen the whole width at one time. The kingstones were my "starter set" and It really is time to upgrade. I have this nice LN bench plane, a 103 block, and I have a LV DX60 block promised to be ordered come friday by the wife... So I need to step up my sharpening arsenal just a little bit ...

Having said that.... Here is my stones properly flattened and back in the water...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2799.jpg

and the 30 degree micro bevel done on a 220 grit grit stone...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2800.jpg

And after a final honing on a 4k and 8k stone...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2803.jpg

And what a difference it made. I guess I just got in there earlier and .... well .... honestly I don't know. I wasnt thinking about what I was doing. I micro beveled my number 8 , and my number 3.... Why I just ignored the whole concept was beyond me. I havent sharpened for a while so my I just had to screw it up to remember.

Either way.... I found a tea light candle... waxed the sole.... It pushes like my number 8 now. Let me say this though, the No. 8 is a corrugated sole, and I have NEVER waxed it to push it. Today, I am officially sold on the corrugation. Every plane after this that is bigger than a No. 4 will be a corrugated version. I have never even considered wax, although I am aware of the method ( Cosman does it in practically every video ) I haven't ever thought that it was hard enough to push like this 5 1/2 was.... Just for kicks... I am a corrugated sole kind of guy !

Any way. Look at this...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2807.jpg

A piece of thin maple I resawed on the Table saw a while back.... got some burn marks on it...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2805.jpg

after wards...
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2808.jpg

and some before and after microbevel shavings to compare...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2809.jpg

Thanks guys. Sometimes we just to be slapped in the head and reminded to think a little bit.

[David Weaver]

>>Every plane after this that is bigger than a No. 4 will be a corrugated version<<

Don't do it!

Corrugated bottom planes are a marketing issue, they don't wear as well as plain bottom planes and with paraffin they aren't any easier to push. On a scale of things that make a difference in friction, corrugations would be a 2 and paraffin would be a 100.

Larry williams enlightened us to something last year that I've always seen and never questioned - corrugated planes with heavy use will develop very odd ditches between the corrugations of the mouth and the plane. Every well used corrugated plane I've had has them, but I never questioned why they were there until Larry attributed them to the corrugations. I don't know why they wear like that (and I do still have some corrugated planes, but after playing around for a while, I can't see any real benefit to them other than that they look neat when they're fresh and unworn).

There may be some point in your future where you want to use one of those planes to do something where the corrugations will get in the way, too. Those things are few, and you'll probably have other planes with flat bottoms, but if they're of no practical benefit...

[Pam Niedermayer]

Do you happen to know whether you bought an A2 or O1 iron? If A2, water stones are not advised (danged if I know what is since I avoid A2 like the plague); so you may need some new stones, maybe diamond?

Pam

[Jim Barrett]

If A2, water stones are not advised (danged if I know what is since I avoid A2 like the plague); so you may need some new stones, maybe diamond?

Pam

Pam,

Where did you get that information?

Jim

[Rick Erickson]

Agree with the "Corrugation - It's a bad thing" philosophy. Well, maybe not bad but certainly unnecessary. Wax is the way to go and no big deal to use. In terms of A2 I have NO problems sharpening it with water stones (albeit Shaptons). I avoid O1 like the plague. A2 with today's stones (Shaptons, etc.) is trivial to sharpen.

John, buy they Shaptons. LN planes deserve them :-). They are a drastic improvement over your Kings (I guess others might say that is BS). For planes you can get by with a 1000 and 16000 and lapping plate. If you include chisels you will have to add the 4000 and 8000 just to do the initial back flattening (unless you've already done that).

[David Weaver]

A2 is sharpened quite easily by aluminum oxide abrasive stones (pretty much all of the older clay matrix baked type stones).

it is a non-event for shaptons, too. Never tried it on oilstones, but it's probably not sharpened properly by them.

[John A. Callaway]

I bought the A2 steel. Not a fan of the O1 from what I have read thus far. The waterstones can put one heck of an edge on my 103 block , all of my two cherries chisels and my benchplanes..... I couldn't spring for the Nortons when I bought these stones so I got what I could.... my big thing is I don't care for keeping a water tank in the cabinet and the shaptons have a proven track record.... I have some oil stones and they are okay....but I don't use them. My father has the tormek.... and I can get just as good ....if not better than the tormek can on these stones..... the one advantage to the tormek.....like any wheel is grinding in the dished Bevel....the shaptons are wide enough and plenty effective .... and about half the cost of a tormek for the three main stones....

As for the corrugated sole thing..... I am still not convinced... the only other real big plane I want is to replace my Stanley No.8 with the LN version..... still not convinced I need a No.6 .... and maybe the weight of the number 8 trump the need for wax ...but after micro leveling that blade.... which improved cut quality...it still was no easier to push until I rubbed it with the candle. So.... a block of paraffin will be located when I get back in tomorrow.

Either way..... I got this thing working sweet now... any tips for using it as a shooter ?... hadn't tried that since I re did the blade..... and I am in bus on the way out of town for work .... but I want to try it out some more tomorrow evening.

[John A. Callaway]

David : I will have inspect my jointer when I get back.... never paid any attention to those ditches.... you have me curious now....:)

[Jim Koepke]

I am in agreement with David when it comes to corrugated soles.

My opinion on the "ruler trick" is different. If one is trying to get to work quick with an old pitted blade maybe. If someone with a new plane is having trouble getting it to work, it is just one more variable in the what can be wrong guessing game.

My opinion and maybe mine only is that before trying "tricks" on a blade, one should have the blade working properly before starting.

It is kind of like having a car that won't start and expecting it to be fixed with dual carbs.

As far as your stones not being wide enough, you can sharpen across the stones until you get some that are wider.

jtk

[John A. Callaway]

Thats what I have been doing..... sharpening across....and its a bit of a pain with a guide....the new plane is going to be the excuse for the shaptons.

[Jim Barrett]

Here is a video of Rob Cosman using shapton waterstones on an out of the box LN plane and getting some uber thin shavings....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rvop_JCfZGI&feature=related

With results like this why would you NOT use waterstones (Shaptons)?

Jim

[Casey Gooding]

I guess my point is that my plane isnt ready to put to work out the box.... I think....



The real issue is that the blade is not ready to put to work out of the box. The plane itself should be darn near perfect. Sounds to me like you've made the edge of the blade slightly concave across it's length. It should be perfectly straight across or slightly convex. Do this by applying a bit more pressure to the corners when honing. Flattening your stones will help. If they are waterstones, this should be done very frequently, after every sharpening or two. Doing this will not only be quicker, but help avoid the problems in the future.

[John A. Callaway]

Jim: seen the video. Another fine excuse to spend the money on the shaptons :)

Casey: I think my problem was that my stones really needed a good flattening more than anything. And yes the plane was ready.... the blade needed some work....and.... evidently.... so did I.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well, I could be mistaken about water stones and A2 (as I said, I don't have any A2 blades that I know of), but many on other forums have commented that A2 is harder to sharpen than O1 and that water stones dish too readily to return any joy for the work. John's problems sounded like something weird was happening, very contrary to my LN experience; so the fact he hadn't mentioned A2 accommodations prompted me to mention that it might be an A2 vs O1 problem.

Shaptons are different. I don't use mine much because of the severe stiction I experienced trying to sharpen western blades (one of the joys of being a very early adopter, solvable if one gouges the stones, but I cringe every time I think about what I paid for them). So take it as a voice from outside. You'll probably need a diamond or something similar to level the Shaptons, so I'd get the diamond first and give it a try.

Pam

[Joel Goodman]

If you just want wider stones the 3" X 8" Nortons work fine with A2 and with 01. You can get an 8000 and use a 1200 DMT diamond before that. Just use the 8000 for the microbevel. Either sandpaper on a flat surface or a coarse diamond will easily flatten the Norton. The Shaptons have a good rep as do the Naiwa (not sure of the spelling) but I figure I'll wear out my Nortons first.

[David Weaver]

I'll put in the pitch I put in every time we talk about shaptons.

If you get them, and you ever have any inkling of wanting to sharpen HSS, buy the pro stones and glue (epoxy) them to a stable piece of quartersawn wood.

The glasstones are nice working stones if you stick them to something, but in my experience, they do not tolerate HSS well, and they are a lot of money for not much media. The pro stones don't exactly rip through HSS like diamonds do, but they can sharpen it.

I just don't know what the benefit of the glasstones is over pro stones other than initial cost, but I would be miffed to replace my 1000 stone every few years when I could spend a couple bucks more and get a stone that's got 3x as much media and you can use nearly all of it if you glue it to something, even a piece of glass.

[John A. Callaway]

Ya know David last night after I left the forum I started digging around and I was sorta wondering about the actual pro stones versus the glass stones. I would really like to see the two in person side by side. My thing about the glass stones is yeah, you can get a good set up for a little over two hundred dollars, but then there is that lapping plate that will run ya another 320 dollars.... OUCH. Some one ( maybe you ) saidon here before about finding the pro stones on the bay... and I glanced at them then.... didnt give it much thought. I guess I will have to little more home work first. I really am open to going either route at this point.

What are the alternatives to flattening the glass stones beyond the diamond lapping plate ?

It will be a few weeks before I order anything... got a few other things that have come up that are pressing my wallet first after this pay day. ( namely a new windshield for my vehicle... thank you snowstorm in Virginia .... )

Joel : for the money I would spend on the Norton's I could add a few more dollars and go with the shapton pro stones....

[John A. Callaway]

here is a little shooting plane end grain action.... spalted maple for my cabinet over in the wood working projects sub forum

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2849.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2848.jpg

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2847.jpg

I love this tool.

here is a quick shot of the cabinet so far...

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j87/trainman0978/DSCN2850.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

here is a little shooting plane end grain action.... spalted maple for my cabinet over in the wood working projects sub forum

Looks like you have gotten it figured out.

Cheers!

jtk

[Tristan Williams]

John - get that iron really really sharp from all the great advice above, then grab a candle or a lump of paraffin wax and scribble on the sole of your plane with it. It doesn't need much, just a scribble down the sole. You'll be amazed at the difference it makes! With a keenly sharp iron and a freshly waxed sole my No.6 needs only a feather touch to take the finest of shavings. The difference is like night and day. I actually have to be careful to catch the plane at the end of the stroke because it just wants to keep on gliding right off the stock!

[Rick Erickson]

Nice looking cabinet John. It's hard to tell from the picture - how are you accounting for wood movement of the maple door (or is it a back)? What will the cabinet be used for (I may have missed that in you comments)?

[John A. Callaway]

Well... the cabinet door is not actually installed in that picture.... just sitting in the frame. I will have to get a even reveal all the way around to give it room to swing, as well as account for a little seasonal movement. I have installed the knife hinge in the bottom of the door and cabinet...but that was after I took this picture. I am using the brusso knife offset hinges... So the hope and goal and plan is to have a washer width reveal all the way around... We will see if I am that good yet. The bottom hinge set install went pretty smooth, considering I did it after the cabinet was assembled... I am not sure if I should have done the mortises before assembly or not. My big fear now is to make sure I get the upper hinge set aligned perfectly so the door doesn't swing crooked or bind up... Maybe when I get back home from work on monday I will give it a go and see if I can get it to work.

I am waiting on a lee valley order that has a brusso Ball catch for it, and I think I am going to make a door pull out of walnut or something...

[Andrew Gibson]

Good looking cabinet.
I have a few A2 irons and my King stones sharpen them without problem.
As for Corrugated soles, My first plane was a #7c inherited from my Great Grandfather... sense then I have been building my set with C's. don't go telling everyone you like them because the price my go up more.

[John A. Callaway]

haha ... Andrew... I knew I wasnt the only one that liked them....