Cabinet Refacing

[Mike Conley]

I have a question about refacing my cabinets.

I am starting to reface a bathroom vanity in our house. I will be making new doors and drawer fronts out of cherry.

For the face frame, I am debating between removing the face frames and replacing with new solid cherry face frames, applying 1/4" cherry veneer over the face frames, or applying the peal and stick cherry veneer.

I checked the existing face frames and they can be removed fairly easily. They are not glued on, they are attached with staples from the back side at an angle. I took a hammer and hit the frame from the inside and it will come off.

I think I like the idea of putting new solid cherry face frames on, but I am wondering what is the best way to attach them. Should I glue them and use small finish nails to hold them in place?

I was hoping to be able to do this without removing the cabinet so that I do not have to disconnect all the plumbing.

Since this is my first refacing job, any comments would be appreciated.

[John TenEyck]

If you can get the old ones off a new cherry one makes a lot of sense. You can easily attach the new one with bisquits or pocket screws, or both, the bisquits to register the frame on the cabinet and a few pocket screws to hold it tight while the glue dries.

[Jim Rimmer]

If you can get the old ones off a new cherry one makes a lot of sense. You can easily attach the new one with bisquits or pocket screws, or both, the bisquits to register the frame on the cabinet and a few pocket screws to hold it tight while the glue dries.

I would recommend the pocket hole screws. If you don't have a pocket hole jig, this is the excuse to get one.

[Chip Lindley]

Mike, if you can easily remove the faceframes, you are lucky. Make new solid FFs and attach with biscuits. I disdain pocket holes that may be seen inside a carcass. For hidden applications, they aren't so bad--like holding the FF together in the first place.

In the future, if you should have to reface a FF that cannot be removed, stay away from the stick-em veneer. It is future heartache waiting to happen. And, your 1/8" veneer will look wayy Clunky, and "added-on."

I have done many cabinets with thin veneers I bandsawed and sanded to about 3/64" thick. Sanding was done with a tapered sanding disc in my TS before I acquired a drum sander. Veneers were cut from boards of exact width for every part needed. Inside and outside edge veneers are exact width of the FF stock (3/4"). The face veneers are cut wider than the FF stock to exactly overlay two veneers applied to inner/outer edges.

Each veneer piece was cut exactly to length and applied in the following order:

-Horizontal inside of door/drawer openings
-Vertical inside of door/drawer openings
-Exposed FF ends
-Vertical FF stiles
-Horizontal FF rails

For application, each veneer part and each surface of FF receives two coats of WeldWood contact cement (solvent type)

All outside edges blended with 1/4 sheet palm sander (not ROS)120g. paper. Stain or finish natural with same coating as your new doors receive.

Refacing in this manner is a bit labor intensive. But, well worth the effort. Many do not trust contact cement with veneer, but after 20 years my bathroom vanity has suffered not one problem. It is RO veneer over an (ugh!) birch ply FF. Still solid as a rock!
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[keith micinski]

If the face frames can be taken off then that is absolutely what you should do. I couldn't get mine off because they were glued and every time I open a drawer you can see the existing face frame and I hate it. Biscuits, pocket screws either one will work great.

[Mike Conley]

Thanks for the replys.

I removed the face frame and have started making the new face frame. The face frame was attached with staples shot in at an angle from the back side so it came off easily. The only place it was glued was at the corner brace at the top corners, but it broke away easily since the corner brace was made from press board.

[Gene Waara]

......For the face frame, I am debating between removing the face frames and replacing with new solid cherry face frames, applying 1/4" cherry veneer over the face frames, or applying the peel and stick cherry veneer.......

I used peel and stick last winter while refacing my sons cabinets. It was the first time I tried peel and stick and was really impressed. When complete it was almost impossible to tell the refaced rails and stiles from those on a new cabinet I made. I also made new doors and when closed, so little of the rails and stiles show I am convinced the time and money saved was well worth the trade off. I used oak and stained and finished the veneer the same as the doors.

[John Gregory]

I agree with Gene. I uses PSA walnut on a melamine vanity. That was 2 or 3 years ago and they still look beautiful. I would not hesitate to use PSA veneer.

[Dave MacArthur]

Interesting thread, particularly the comments on peel and stick. Sounds like Mike got his answer and is able to do it the "best way" via new frames. However, since this is a good thread for it, I'll ask another question and hopefully improve rather than take away from the thread.

I have some "pickled oak" cabinets that I'd like to reface, I've been thinking about the dark-stain/ebonizing process of tannin with steel wool. I like that super dark oak look. Problem is that white pigment wiped into all the oak pores... Is there any way to stain or really darken the white pickled oak look without refacing, and if I were to use the peel/stick method on the face frames, would that material respond well to the tannin/iron ebonizing treatment? Rental house, looking to improve the look to go with new tile counters without replacing cabinets...

And if anyone has suggestions on what color I SHOULD be using or how to "style" this kitchen up cheaply, fire away!

Hopefully this question applies to the "refacing face frames", and Mike won't mind the additional question now that he's on the job ;)

[Mike Conley]

Interesting thread, particularly the comments on peel and stick. Sounds like Mike got his answer and is able to do it the "best way" via new frames. However, since this is a good thread for it, I'll ask another question and hopefully improve rather than take away from the thread.

I have some "pickled oak" cabinets that I'd like to reface, I've been thinking about the dark-stain/ebonizing process of tannin with steel wool. I like that super dark oak look. Problem is that white pigment wiped into all the oak pores... Is there any way to stain or really darken the white pickled oak look without refacing, and if I were to use the peel/stick method on the face frames, would that material respond well to the tannin/iron ebonizing treatment? Rental house, looking to improve the look to go with new tile counters without replacing cabinets...

And if anyone has suggestions on what color I SHOULD be using or how to "style" this kitchen up cheaply, fire away!

Hopefully this question applies to the "refacing face frames", and Mike won't mind the additional question now that he's on the job ;)

Don't mind at all Dave.

The finish on your cabinets looks very similar to the finish on the cabinets in our house. Since this is my first attempt at refacing cabinets, I started with a bathroom vanity for practice. That way if I mess up all I have to replace is the bathroom vanity.

[keith micinski]

If your looking to improve the look, time warping it back to 1975 with dark stained oak and tile counter tops isn't the way to go. Especially if it's a rental house which implies to me that it will probably be rented by someone under 50 who really isn't going to appreciate that look. Tile countertops are a bear to clean and maintain and to be honest with you most people find them cheap looking. A nice new laminate counter top will be cheaper, easier to maintain.

[Chuck Werts]

If it is a rental do the minimum to get it rented. Save the real upgrades until you are ready to sell. White paint is good. It is easy to touch up. "A nice new laminate counter top will be cheaper, easier to maintain." good advice, but only if you need a new counter.

[Jim Rimmer]

Chip:

I'm a little confused. From the picture it looks like granite counters and new tile floors. Did you leave out a comma? :confused:

[Chip Lindley]

Jim,

Sorry if I was unclear. I read my post back to my big yeller dog and it made perfect sense to her!!

The photos are of my own bathroom vanity, refaced with red oak veneer about 20 years ago; new frame and panel doors added. I was showing the longevity of the job after using contact cement with homemade veneers over the original birch plywood FF, as outlined in my original post. See?

[Jim Rimmer]

Jim,

Sorry if I was unclear. I read my post back to my big yeller dog and it made perfect sense to her!!

The photos are of my own bathroom vanity, refaced with red oak veneer about 20 years ago; new frame and panel doors added. I was showing the longevity of the job after using contact cement with homemade veneers over the original birch plywood FF, as outlined in my original post. See?

How 'bout a real Homer Simpson "DOH". I was looking at the pic in Dave MacArthur's post. :rolleyes: :p

[Noah Katz]

I'm a bit surprised that after all of the comments about how lucky it is that the FF's are removable that there are so many recommendations to forclose on luck the next time by permanently attach the new ones.

[keith micinski]

I think most people consider getting two revisions out of cabinets enough especially when they must not be that high quality of a cabinet to begin with since the frames were tacked on with a few staples to begin with.

[Chip Lindley]

I'm a bit surprised that after all of the comments about how lucky it is that the FF's are removable that there are so many recommendations to forclose on luck the next time by permanently attach the new ones.



I checked the existing face frames and they can be removed fairly easily. They are not glued on, they are attached with staples from the back side at an angle. I took a hammer and hit the frame from the inside and it will come off.


Mike is lucky in a sense, that his FFs are not fine cabinetry, affixed with plenty of glue instead of a few air staples. Makes for a very easy remodel. I can build solid wood FFs faster and easier than all the steps involved in a really good veneer job!

Often folks are really happy with their cabinet layout OR cannot spend on a brand new cabinet install. Refacing offers new looks at a fraction of custom cabinet prices. Plus, for many, a non-functioning kitchen in the midst of remodel is too disrupting to consider. Refacing allows the cabinets to remain intact (sorta) with a minimum of kitchen chaos!

Some sources state the average kitchen lasts 10 years before a renovation. I would think 15 or 20 years is closer to reality for the working middle class! While upscale individuals can afford to remodel at their whim, others consider a kitchen remodel as a major investment. Therefore, probably two remodels of the same set of cabinets is about the limit. Third time things will be gutted to the walls.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I used peel and stick last winter while refacing my sons cabinets. It was the first time I tried peel and stick and was really impressed. When complete it was almost impossible to tell the refaced rails and stiles from those on a new cabinet I made. I also made new doors and when closed, so little of the rails and stiles show I am convinced the time and money saved was well worth the trade off. I used oak and stained and finished the veneer the same as the doors.

Another vote for peel and stick. I refaced my Mother's cabinets 8 years ago and the faceframes still look great. It was relatively easy and quick to do. A razor knife, combo square, edge band trimmer (the $15 handheld one) and some sandpaper glued to a block of wood is all it takes.
-Jeff :)

[Lee Schierer]

While replacing the face frames is easy, I don't recommend it particularly on a cabinet of questionable construction containing particle board in a bathroom. As noted the glue joint on the particle board failed easily which means the new joint isn't likely to fare much better. For the cost of a single sheet of good plywood, he is reusing an old cabinet of questionable construction. If it were my vanity and I intended to stay in the house for more than a couple of years, it would be an all new quality cabinet made from scratch to fit my cherry face frame and drawer fronts. I could then make good drawer boxes and install a quality drawer runner so the cabinet is trouble free for years to come. That's just my take on it

[Mike Conley]

Often folks are really happy with their cabinet layout OR cannot spend on a brand new cabinet install. Refacing offers new looks at a fraction of custom cabinet prices. Plus, for many, a non-functioning kitchen in the midst of remodel is too disrupting to consider. Refacing allows the cabinets to remain intact (sorta) with a minimum of kitchen chaos!



While replacing the face frames is easy, I don't recommend it particularly on a cabinet of questionable construction containing particle board in a bathroom. As noted the glue joint on the particle board failed easily which means the new joint isn't likely to fare much better. For the cost of a single sheet of good plywood, he is reusing an old cabinet of questionable construction. If it were my vanity and I intended to stay in the house for more than a couple of years, it would be an all new quality cabinet made from scratch to fit my cherry face frame and drawer fronts. I could then make good drawer boxes and install a quality drawer runner so the cabinet is trouble free for years to come. That's just my take on it

The only place it was glued was on the small corner brace at the top inside of each corner. The rest of the face frame was stapled on from the back side at an angle.

I agree that a whole new cabinet would be the best. However, money doesn't grow on trees at my place and when I get to doing the whole kitchen the cost of the plywood to do all the cabinets will make a big difference. If money was not a concern, I would like to gut the whole kitchen and start from scratch. I will go even farther than that, if money was not a concern, I would sell the house and build my dream home!:)

Chip's comment is pretty much where I am coming from.

[Noah Katz]

Therefore, probably two remodels of the same set of cabinets is about the limit. Third time things will be gutted to the walls.

that makes sense

[Jeffrey Makiel]

If money was not a concern, I would like to gut the whole kitchen and start from scratch.

That's always a tough judgement call when considering any kitchen remodel job. Today, stock cabinets are very inexpensive making a total gut attractive. However, all the other "incidentals" like the countertop, backsplash, appliances, fixtures, flooring, lighting, etc. also become part of the judgement call. In for a penny, in for a pound. It can become costly very quickly.

I think refacing is a great way to face lift a kitchen if the homeowner is handy and determined. It provides great visual effect at minimal cost.

On a different note...I personally don't have a problem with cabinet construction using engineered sheet materials. As far as the face frames only being tacked in place, that means they are basically just decorative and not meant to be structural. Nor do they need be as per commonly believed. After all, the Europeans have been successfully using frame less cabinetry for decades. I would also like to say that all the kitchen remodel jobs I've done, the reason was to either update the layout of the kitchen or change its appearance. It wasn't because the cabinets were falling apart.

-Jeff :)

[David Prince]

I am with Lee on this.

Putting money into a questionable cabinet just isn't worth the trouble. Building a new cabinet isn't super expensive nor terribly difficult. If it were a good quality custom cabinet that was just somewhat dated and you were looking for an update, then some type of re-face could be a possibility. But if it were a good quality cabinet you may find it difficult to knock a face frame off without causing a major destruct!

I once reasoned like the OP, but life and experience has taught me that some things just aren't worth doing if you cannot do it the right way!

If I were the OP and just looking for a quick and easy facelift, then I would do some kind of paint treatment and would save up to build the replacement.

[Don Alexander]

If I were the OP and just looking for a quick and easy facelift, then I would do some kind of paint treatment and would save up to build the replacement.


but then you aren't him nor are you married to his wife :eek::D:D:D:D

seriously though i have done both methods depending on the overall condition of existing cabinet/s though i would suggest not gluing the new face frame to the old cabinet and using pocket screws to hold it , then if or when a new cabinet is in order (read affordable and wanted) its a simple thing to detach the face frame and use it on a new cabinet

just a thought :)