My Bosch Glide GCM12SD bed is not flat. Is yours?

[Roger Feeley]

My bride of almost 35 years bought me a new Bosch Glide GCM12SD for my birthday. I didn't discover a problem until I had modified my cutoff saw station and wanted to level the wing tables and couldn't. I found that the turntable is low by about .030" which I deem unacceptable. After a conversation with Bosch tech support, I learned that the tolerance is .019". For $800, I would expect at least the .019".

I could adapt somewhat by making my own zero clearance insert and making it a bit thick but I really don't think I should have to do that.

I was fortunate because the aforementioned bride got me a Starrett precision straightedge last year. I laid that across the bed and used a digital caliper to measure the gap all the way across. I found that the the turntable is low by about .012 and that the bed is cupped just a bit that adds to the problem. I don't know if the casting moved after machining or if the saw took some sort of hit during shipping. the box was fine and Bosch did a great job of package design.

My wife got me the saw through Amazon, probably because the local Woodcraft doesn't have them in yet. Returning it would be a hassle since the box is long gone.

Bosch told me to take it in to the local repair depot. I spoke with them and they told me that the process would take about 3 weeks. They evaluate the tool, order the parts and then fix it. There will be no charge to me other than being without my saw for 3 weeks. Since this is the only problem, waiting 3 weeks to get it right seems fine to me. I'm not in any particular hurry. I still have my Dewalt DW703.

I will update my review on Amazon as the process proceeds.

If any others in this group have the saw, could you lay a straightedge across the bed and post the results? Bosch tells me that the saw can't be repaired and that I will have to have a new saw. I want to know the odds of doing better.

[Chuck Wintle]

i would still try amazon for a replacement even though the box is gone. With the bill it should be Ok to get a replacement. Yours may have been a fluke during manufacture and the replacement will be fine. Try Amazon as they are really good.

[Larry Edgerton]

The table on every miter saw I own is low.[Delta,Hitachi,Dewalt,Makita] I don't think this is out of the ordinary. In fact I use it as an advantage. I use green painters tape stuck on over the saw slot in usually 2-4 layers depending on the saw to create a disposable zero clearance insert that really helps my old eyes. Make a mark on the board and line it up with where the saw cut the tape and move on.

I always assumed that the tables were left a hair low on purpose to allow the table to ge adjusted with a board on the saw. Could be wrong, but every saw I have ever had a has had the turntable just a bit low.

There is no such thing as a perfect tool, at least from my perspective. If you find one let me know. Part of being a woodworker is finding solutions, and if possible turning lemons into lemonade....

[Robert Chapman]

I would try Amazon first - before laying up the saw for 3 weeks. This is the second time I have heard of this problem. I checked my new Glide and I do not have the problem. I really like my saw - also a gift from my wife - who always insists that I save shipping boxes for a year.

[Peter Pedisich]

There is no such thing as a perfect tool, at least from my perspective. If you find one let me know. Part of being a woodworker is finding solutions, and if possible turning lemons into lemonade....

I agree. I have a DeWalt biscuit joiner that never cut right until I saw an article in FWW that showed how to get the fence parallel with the blade and I did that and all of a sudden it's like a Lamello in it's precision! (although it still sounds like a grinder...)
My DeWalt 703 10" miter saw has the lower table as well, inconvenient with small pcs, as they 'fall' towards the blade...but I hold the blade down until the saw stops so it's no problem.

[glenn bradley]

The idea of keeping that saw because the return would be a hassle doesn't fly. Get a replacement or curse the thing every time you have a bad cut for all eternity.

[Ed Kilburn]

I'll contact Amazon, back in the summer I purchased a Bosch GRL145HVCK Rotary Laser from cpotools.com, a few weeks later after the box was thrown out, I found the slope function didn't work. One call to CPO and a new one was on the way overnight. Packed the broke one in the box the new one came in, stuck on the enclosed return label and called Fedex for a pick up. Less then 24 hours I had a working unit with no cost or travel on my part. No connection to CPO, but I've bought a lot of tools from them, most being recondition when available.

[Eiji Fuller]

My Kapex table is flat and aligned with the turntable. But even the kapex had issues that weren't acceptable to me like the stiff turntable adjustment and scraping of the detent lock plate. Festool fixed the latter issue but claimed the hard to turn table was a design feature. I came up with a fix and am super pleased with the performance. Still I don't think you can get the perfect miter/slider at the pricepoint most of us would he willing to pay. Even more so now that the dollar is being devalued.

Does Omga make a slider?

[Jim Stewart]

I bought a Bosch from my local supplier. I was apprehensive because my serial number has a bunch zeros with a one at the end of it. A collectors item someday? Anyway, I just read the thread, so I rushed out to the shop to check the bed. It appears to be dead flat. The saw is impressive to this point. A soft start would be nice. The accuracy seems to be excellent. I have Tenryu sawblade and the cut that results is very smooth and slick. Only the tiniest hint of blade marks on the cut. These can be easily taken care of with a low angle plane. I bought the saw mainly for the wide cut capacity. The accuracy and many other features are a bonus for me. Oh yeah, the dust collection is amazing but noisy. I think the wind noise is loader than the saw but I wear ear protection.

[Brian Kincaid]

Does Omga make a slider?

They make Radial Arm Saws. I'm constantly reminding myself I don't need one.
-Brian

[Van Huskey]

They make Radial Arm Saws. I'm constantly reminding myself I don't need one.
-Brian

All I have to do is look at the Omga price sheet and that is all the reminding I need!

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks to all that replied. The general concensus was that I shouldn't live with the thing and make a general pest of myself and that's what I did. I'm happy to report that everyone involved couldn't have been better.

Amazon offered to replace the saw or give me a refund. They offered to pay for return shipping even though I didn't have the original packaging. Because the saw is heavy, they scheduled a pickup with a trucking company. Amazon said I didn't even have to box the saw. The trucking company wanted me to box it in something...anything.

My experience with Bosch was better yet. I approached it from two directions: a support phone call and an email. The phone support guy told me that the saw was out of spec and was not repairable. He said I could return it to Amazon for refund or take it in to a local repair place where they would determine what was wrong (everything) and take care of me. They also said I could ship the saw back to them at my expense. That's about the best I could expect from a frontline support guy.

Meanwhile, the email folks were evaluating my case.

I consulted with my local retailer and they gave me the name of the Bosch Rep for Kansas/Missouri. I called him. I was trying to decide whether to go for a replacement or refund and then buy the saw locally. We have a couple of woodworking shows soon and I thought I might show up with my straightedge and get the pick of the litter. He expressed a lot of interest in my saw and talked with his techs who were more interested yet. They offered to order in several saws, pick the best and ship that one to me. Then I would use the box and ship mine to the techs for analysis. They would pay shipping. That sounded good to me so I accepted their offer. After all, I do like the saw, I just want one that's right.

Meanwhile, the email support folks got back to me. They wanted to ship me a new saw and have me ship mine back at their expense. It seems that their techs wanted to see my saw. That would make two genuine expressions of interest in what happened to my saw.

I have to say that one offer from Bosch might just be anomalous curiosity by a single person. Two such offers suggest a corporate culture.

I will update again in a week or so when I have more to report.

[Ted Wong]

Same problem here x2. First saw arrived and like you said the table was out of flat and if you look at the machine closely you'l notice the foot on the back left side is twisted too. Terrible casting. Amazon sent a replacement immediately and voila, same issues. I should mention both boxes arrived trashed with holes in them. I called Bosch tech support about the problem and within a day I got a call back from Bosch quality assurance team. I sent them digital pics and they sounded really concerned about getting to the bottem of this. Either there are a bunch of bad saws out there or Amazon got an isolated batch of defective saws. Give this guy a shout I'm sure he'd want to know: Howard.Chen@us.bosch.com

[Roger Feeley]

Thanks Ted,

I will pass along your experience to my rep at Bosch. I think it best that my guy be the central point for any contacts with me. The thing to do is get my rep and yours together so they can compare notes.

In my case, I didn't notice any damage to the box but I also didn't look too hard. That said, I will be going downstairs and putting a straightedge on the bottom of the saw to see if the feet are co-planar.

I am mystified at how my saw could have the problems it has. If the bottom part of the saw were a single piece and not a separate base and table, it would be as if a giant hand pressed down in the middle of the table and dished it. A straightedge across the table shows dishing in the table (both sides slope down to the center). The defect is relatively symmetrical. The table is also dished. If the giant hand pressed down on the center of the saw enough to bow both components, I would think that the table would bind. The table moves freely and, other than being badly out of flat, the saw works great.

I hope Bosch will keep in touch with me and let me know what the problem is/was.

Roger

[Roger Feeley]

I passed this thread along to my Bosch Rep and they had some success in reproducing the problem. I had emailed them a rubbing of the saw bed and table where I had written in the gaps showing that the whole thing was dished with about a .037" gap in the middle. Using my report and Ted's and dropping a number of saws, they found that it was abuse by the shippers that was damaging the saws.

Bosch is shipping me a new saw in a prototype package. I will ship my saw back to them for analysis but they don't think they need it anymore since they have no shortage of busted saws.

It was an interesting conversation with the Bosch rep. I suggested that they might put some foam under that saw but he really didn't want to. He want's all of their packaging to be recyclable. I can't argue with that...



Same problem here x2. First saw arrived and like you said the table was out of flat and if you look at the machine closely you'l notice the foot on the back left side is twisted too. Terrible casting. Amazon sent a replacement immediately and voila, same issues. I should mention both boxes arrived trashed with holes in them. I called Bosch tech support about the problem and within a day I got a call back from Bosch quality assurance team. I sent them digital pics and they sounded really concerned about getting to the bottem of this. Either there are a bunch of bad saws out there or Amazon got an isolated batch of defective saws. Give this guy a shout I'm sure he'd want to know: Howard.Chen@us.bosch.com

[Chris Padilla]

This is fantastic to see that companies do care about their products. I'm happy to hear the saw works great and that Bosch will fix the packaging problems. A big thumbs up to Bosch!

[Dave Lehnert]

Interesting thread. Have to give Bosch a thumbs up for taking interest in the problem.

The only thing I will kinda disagree with is "abuse by the shipper" Very well may be the problem, but come on, Anyone knows what a package goes through during shipping. Packaging should be made bulletproof by the manufacture.

As far a foam under the table. I once took a tour of the Shopsmith factory. The shipping dept was interesting because they were only allowed to use certain packaging material in some states. If I remember right, Foam for example, could not be used in a package sent to Alaska but OK in another state.

[Roger Feeley]

At this point, I am only quoting what the Bosch rep told me. He said that there are tests that they must perform to certify packaging for UPS shipping. He said that this saw and its packaging had passed. He said that the saw/package should have survived the traumas of normal shipping. The implication here is that my packaged suffered extra 'attention' by UPS.

I helpfully suggested that they put an accellerometer in the box they ship to me. I pointed out that it was coming back to them anyway. We shall see.

Regarding the foam: Their aversion to it seemed to be both personal and corporate. The rep just said that he didn't want to add to the landfills.


Interesting thread. Have to give Bosch a thumbs up for taking interest in the problem.

The only thing I will kinda disagree with is "abuse by the shipper" Very well may be the problem, but come on, Anyone knows what a package goes through during shipping. Packaging should be made bulletproof by the manufacture.

As far a foam under the table. I once took a tour of the Shopsmith factory. The shipping dept was interesting because they were only allowed to use certain packaging material in some states. If I remember right, Foam for example, could not be used in a package sent to Alaska but OK in another state.

[Mark Ashmeade]

We use Shockwatch indicators at work for shipping valuable and delicate equipment.

http://www.shockwatch.com/shipping_handling_monitors/impact_indicator/index.php

There is a small vial in the sticker that turns red if the package has been subjected to impact. The biggest problem is getting the recipient to note on the docket that the shockwatch has blown. However, in several cases, we have successfully claimed against the shipper when the shockwatch has blown and the equipment was damaged. I think they cost about a dollar each.

[Roger Feeley]

We used to use Shockwatch on some old removable hard drives. I thought of that when I was talking with the guy but suggested an accelerometer instead. Shockwatch is like a go-no go gauge. It will tell you that something is wrong but won't tell you why. My thought was that a logging accelerometer would tell Bosch exactly what the g forces were, how often they happened and when. Using a shipping trace, Bosch could pretty much tell where the damage happened and could work with UPS to clear up the problem.

My thought was that Bosch knows that I am going to be standing by with my straightedge and depth micrometer. They know that I'm going to be fussy, that I'm going to check the saw right out of the box and that I am going to post the results here, on the Wood Magazine site and Amazon. There is every reason to be a little extra careful.

I would have happily shipped the accelerometer back to them.

Roger


We use Shockwatch indicators at work for shipping valuable and delicate equipment.

http://www.shockwatch.com/shipping_handling_monitors/impact_indicator/index.php

There is a small vial in the sticker that turns red if the package has been subjected to impact. The biggest problem is getting the recipient to note on the docket that the shockwatch has blown. However, in several cases, we have successfully claimed against the shipper when the shockwatch has blown and the equipment was damaged. I think they cost about a dollar each.

[Mark Ashmeade]

I just checked mine, and sure enough it isn't COMPLETELY flat, but appears to be within spec. There's a barely perceptible gap under the straightedge across the table, but I couldn't reliably measure it with my caliper. I instead set the caliper to 0.030", and the gap is about a third of that. So I'm within about a hundredth of an inch. If the tolerance is 0.019, I appear to be right in the middle of that range, so all is well with my saw. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I got mine at a local store (where it had briefly been a floor model). I suspect though that the store gets its deliveries by UPS/FedEx/DHL too.

[Roger Feeley]

Mark,

FYI, Bosch's stated goal is to have the base/table bow UPWARDS if it's off at all. The idea of that is that if there is to be any error, they want the wood to fall away from the blade and avoid any kind of grabbing.

I heard the same thing from a local store owner as a generalization. It's a safety thing.

You didn't say how your saw was out but you might want to take the above into account. Bowing up just a tiny bit could be considered a feature.

If your saw is bowed downwards, a little basic geometry would tell you what might happen with a 4" piece of wood.

At this point, I should mention a basic rule of Miter Saw Safety: When you make a cut, turn off the saw and let it come to a stop before you raise the blade back through the wood. The body of the blade is thinner than the kerf. When the teeth have passed through the wood, if everything is just right, nothing will be touching the wood. If the blade is spinning and you raise it, it may grab and will almost certainly add a few marks that will have to be sanded.

If your saw bows a bit downward, stopping the saw before raising it is more important yet. Not so much on the 3/4" stuff but certainly on the thicker stock. For sure on the 4"x8" timber!

Roger


I just checked mine, and sure enough it isn't COMPLETELY flat, but appears to be within spec. There's a barely perceptible gap under the straightedge across the table, but I couldn't reliably measure it with my caliper. I instead set the caliper to 0.030", and the gap is about a third of that. So I'm within about a hundredth of an inch. If the tolerance is 0.019, I appear to be right in the middle of that range, so all is well with my saw. I don't know if it makes a difference, but I got mine at a local store (where it had briefly been a floor model). I suspect though that the store gets its deliveries by UPS/FedEx/DHL too.

[Mark Ashmeade]

Thanks for the advice! I used to have a no-name 10" slider that was OK when new, but was a nightmare as it got older and the bearings or tubes wore. The detents weren't adjustable, and enlarged themselves over time, it just had to go. I replaced it with a used RAS, but that was not very accurate either. I then got a Hitachi slider on special at Costco, and that was the most violent raucous machine I've ever used. Again, no place for it in my shop. Enter the GCM12SD, and it's leagues ahead of any of the three mentioned above. Smoother, quieter, altogether better.

The rotary table is certainly lower than the supporting sides, but as I said earlier, by a very small amount. So small I can't reliably measure it. It may even be the straightedge that's out. I'll have to try the various "straight" edges I have. I certainly understand what you're saying about the wider teeth etc, but cutting some 2x10 on it the other day was a breeze. The other thing that's potentially working against it is that it is currently on a miter saw stand, which has quite a degree of flex in it, and only supports the saw at the side mounting holes, not underneath. It wouldn't surprise me if the saw was "bowing" under its own weight just a tad. Possibly if I placed it flat on a bench, supported all across its width, it may be different. In any case, the difference is barely visible, and not reliably measurable. At least, I haven't figured out how to reliably measure it!!

[Roger Feeley]

If you really want to measure it, you could 'calibrate' your straighted on your table saw bed. Try this:

1. Find a couple of 1/8" drill bits that aren't all chewed up. Tape them to the table saw bed to elevate your straightedge. That way, if the middle is low, it won't matter. Make sure that the distance between the bits is just a bit less than the width of the miter saw.
2. Lay the straightede on the saw and mark the position of the two edges and the position of all of the machines spots. You now have a story stick.
3. Put your straightedge across the bits on the table saw.
4. Zero out your digital caliper and some point and record where you did it.
5. Record the gaps (+ or -) at each of the positions you previously marked.

Now:
6. Move your bits to the miter saw.
7. Line up your straightedge and repeat the measurements.

This way it won't matter if your straightedge is straight. You only care that your straightedge is sturdy and inflexible. You are making the assumption that your table saw is flat and testing your miter saw to that standard.

If you want to check your table saw, you could move your straightedge from side to side on the table saw or even reverse it. You should be able to average out any wavyness.

I sort of won the bride sweepstakes. She gave me a Starrett machinists straightedge for Christmas last year. The Bosch saw was for my birthday this year and the straightedge really came in handy when I was communicating with Bosch. That stuff will give you some credibility with the tech support people.

[Chris Parks]

I was going to order one of these for export to Australia as Bosch have no plans to introduce them in the foreseeable future but now I might think twice. I don't want to have to send it back for repairs, the freight will be expensive enough to get it here.

[Roger Feeley]

Update: Bosch took a crack at better packaging and sent me another saw. They were able to reproduce my problem by dropping the saw from about truck height. Think of it as kicking the box out the back of the truck. Sheesh!

So the new package consisted of a custom made box around the original box with about 3/4" corner pieces of foam. In their experiments, this packaging did better but sadly saw #2 was no better than saw #1. In fact my measurements were virtually identical. I was using a digital caliper and those things are only good to a couple of thousandths. I don't own a set of feeler gauges.

I contacted Bosch and gave them the news. It just so happened that last weekend was the Woodworking Show here in KC and I live about a half mile from the venue. The Bosch guys were going to be in town anyway, so Friday morning, they came to my house and did their own measurements. I wasn't offended at all. Besides, it would be better to measure after only one dose of UPS than two. The return trip would introduce variations. They really needed to see what I saw.

Their measurements pretty much matched mine. By this time, the aforementioned bride of almost 35 years started feeling bad about the busted saw. She made me an offer I can't refuse. "Return the saw and I will get you a Sawstop Industrial". Bosch offered to buy the saw from me so they could have it for study. I gave them my reciept from Amazon and they took the saw. They promise a check in about 2 weeks.

In summary, I admire Bosch for their sincere interest in solving the problem. Amazon offered to pay return shipping. I think everyone involved has treated me ace high.

As to the saw, I think it's great. I also think it can't survive what UPS apparently throws at it. If any of you want one, try to get it locally even if you have to order it. I think if the saw is transported on a pallet, it will be fine. If it is transported individually, it's a crap shoot.

[Caleb Larru]

Well, I was at the KC Woodworking show and bought the saw after demoing it and yes, it is being shipped to me. Funny, one of the selling points from the Bosch reps were how flat the table was and how they designed it using two pieces of aluminum instead of one so it wouldn't warp and stay flat. They never mentioned they were having problems with the table so here is to hoping mine will be alright.

[Roger Feeley]

Best of luck. My guess is that peoples results will vary based on what happens in shipment. Please keep the thread going. I would like to hear what happens.

[Ed Kilburn]

I bought mine at the Baltimore Woodworking show from Powerhouse Tool and Supply. They were sold out at the show but offered free shipping. Due to being out of town I ask them to hold it till I returned. Well it got here last week and had a .060 bow down in the middle.:eek: When I called PHT&S, Ivy one of the owners answer my call, she was not aware of the problem but promised to contact Bosch and make it right. Ivy had the replacement saw checked out at their shop then, drove my replacement saw to my home 3 hours each way. Now there is service you don't get very often:D. This is my first purchase from PHT&S but I'm sure it won't be my last. The real test of a company is how you are treated when things go wrong, with Ivy handling this I'd say they passed with flying colors. :)website:http://powerhousetoolsupply.com/

[Roger Feeley]

Again thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Bosch issued me a check for the full price I paid Amazon and I got the check about a week ago. Again, excellent service from Bosch. I hope they find a way to transport this excellent saw.