Denatured Alcohol in the freezing north?

[Don Nurmela]

I have an interesting question about DNA use in the north. No one as given me a definitive answer on my qusetion yet. I am considering keeping my DNA soaking container outside for space and safety considerations. I know that the DNA when I first get it freezes at about -175 F, and that temperature will rise and it gets diluted.
So here is the question, If the DNA gets to about 10F is still a liquid and I put a freshly turned green wet bowl blank in it will the DNA still work the water out or will the water freeze in the wood?
I know all the variables matter, such as type of wood (maple right now), thickness (1/10 diameter of bowl), temperature of wood when put in ( 70F), how long soak (?), etc.
I also know I can just try it and see what happens. I am looking for experience and/or explaination of what happens in the DNA bath.
Any takers? :rolleyes:

[Prashun Patel]

I'm no pro, but I believe the low temperature will have worse affects on the bowl blank than the DNA. Freezing/thawing/expansion/contraction is something I'd want to limit during seasoning. My instinct (speculating, way outa my league here...) also says that freezing tends to cause otherwise miscible materials to separate, which could discourage the displacement of water by DNA in the cells which is what you want to happen.

[David Gilbert]

I'll step into this question with my two cents. I have advanced degrees but that doesn't always make me right.

Since ethyl alcohol and water are totally miscible in each other at all proportions there is very little likelihood that the water will freeze out. Even diluted alcohol like we have in beer (3 - 8%) or wine (9 - 13%) won't freeze at the kinds of temperature that we normally see (even in the far north). I'm guessing that the temperatures need to get down to -60 C (-76 F) before there might be any freezing.

Although it probably won't freeze at 10 F, the exchange of water and alcohol will be slowed down. A general rule of thumb is that the rate of reaction will double for every 10 C (18 F) that you raise the temperature. If you normally soak your bowl for a day then I would be inclined to do it for at least a week or two if you are comparing 68 F to 14 F (8 times slower). I don't think soaking longer will hurt the wood. Thermodynamically the water in the wood wants to be diluted by the alcohol and that will happen at all temperatures warm or cold. It is just a matter of how long it will take for the alcohol to diffuse into the wood and for the water to diffuse out.

I hope this helps. This looks like a great topic for a detailed experiment. All you need to do is make a dozen identical bowls and soak them for different times and compare the results. On second thought, you should probably just turn some bowls and get them soaking right away since spring will be here before your experiment would be done.

Cheers,
David

[Bernie Weishapl]

I do keep my DNA inside. The container I keep it in is sealed well. A few years ago I kept the DNA in a unheated shed and did notice that when it got super cold (0 F to -10 F) that a lot of bowls would come out cracked badly. I haven't seen that problem since I brought the DNA inside. I can't say with any authority that it was the cold but as I said haven't had but a couple of bowls crack since it came inside. I soak all my bowls for at least 3 days and fruit wood up to 5 days.

[Dan Hintz]

I do keep my DNA inside. The container I keep it in is sealed well. A few years ago I kept the DNA in a unheated shed and did notice that when it got super cold (0 F to -10 F) that a lot of bowls would come out cracked badly. I haven't seen that problem since I brought the DNA inside. I can't say with any authority that it was the cold but as I said haven't had but a couple of bowls crack since it came inside. I soak all my bowls for at least 3 days and fruit wood up to 5 days.
Bernie,

Could that be attributed to a significantly higher moisture content in the outside air compared to inside? A high moisture content in your alcohol is almost as bad as dipping it in straight water.

[Curt Fuller]

Ok, here's a very unscientific theory from a guy with barely a high school education (and that was a long time ago) and no real knowledge of the chemistry or physics of the DNA process. Something in the DNA combining with the water in the cells of the wood allows for an acceleration of the breakdown of the barrier in the wood cells that traps the water. This allows the water to pass through the cell walls and find it's way to the outside surface of the wood where it can then evaporate. So naturally, the higher the concentration of DNA to water, the better the process is going to work. The colder the temperature, the less evaporation is going to take place. But even a small amount of DNA in the water serves as "antifreeze" and prevents the mixture from freezing even at 10 degrees. So even though the process works regardless of temperature, it seems like it would work better when the DNA is more pure and the temperatures are higher to allow the evaporation of the water once it's drawn to the surface. As for freezing of wood, trees stand outside in extremely cold temperatures while alive and literally full of water and suffer no ill affects to the wood. So even if the wood were to freeze during the process of the DNA soak at a very cold temperature, I don't think it would harm the wood. Some turners and carvers even store their wood in a freezer to keep it from drying out. I DNA soak wood during the winter just the same as the summer and I've never really noticed a huge difference but logic tells me that it probably works better at warmer temps. Again, no science here, just the ramblings of a woodturner that believes in the DNA process.

[Dan Hintz]

Curt,

My scientific background (;)) says you're right on with almost everything. I think the trees don't "freeze" because it's not pure water running through it, but a mixture of stuff (i.e., sap) that acts as a natural anti-freeze... though don't quote me on that.