PM66 switch / starting problem

[Skip McKenzie]

First post, been hanging around a while and very impressed with the knowledge base in this group. I'm sure this subject is in the archives but I cannot find it. I purchased a 2003 PM66 from a cabinet shop that went under. Got the saw for $1000 it looked great untill I got to my shop, so far it has been torn down to the bare case, cleaned, bearings replaced and reassembled. Ran new wire (8 gage) w/ 50 amp breaker. The saw will not start, At the tech support suggestion I conected the wires from the pig tail to the motor connectons. The motor sounds it wants to run but it will not start. A couple of questions, There was a jumper from L3 to L2, does this need to be connected ? There is also a wire (red) on the back side of L1 it's approximately 2" long and has a lug installed, does this need to connected? I called the tech support and they suspect the caps are dead. I ran a continuity check across the terminals with no continuity present. With the switch cover removed I pushed the brown bar in and again the motor sounds it wants to start but will not turn over. Any help would be greatly appreciated also if someone has a picture of a running PM66 switch internals that would be very helpfull. Thanks very much, Skip

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Skip,

Please post the motor plate details. Is this a 3 phase saw?

Ruperto


First post, been hanging around a while and very impressed with the knowledge base in this group. I'm sure this subject is in the archives but I cannot find it. I purchased a 2003 PM66 from a cabinet shop that went under. Got the saw for $1000 it looked great untill I got to my shop, so far it has been torn down to the bare case, cleaned, bearings replaced and reassembled. Ran new wire (8 gage) w/ 50 amp breaker. The saw will not start, At the tech support suggestion I conected the wires from the pig tail to the motor connectons. The motor sounds it wants to run but it will not start. A couple of questions, There was a jumper from L3 to L2, does this need to be connected ? There is also a wire (red) on the back side of L1 it's approximately 2" long and has a lug installed, does this need to connected? I called the tech support and they suspect the caps are dead. I ran a continuity check across the terminals with no continuity present. With the switch cover removed I pushed the brown bar in and again the motor sounds it wants to start but will not turn over. Any help would be greatly appreciated also if someone has a picture of a running PM66 switch internals that would be very helpfull. Thanks very much, Skip

[ken carroll]

Ruperto asked my first instinct also.

If it's from a cabinet shop there's a very high chance that it's a 3 phase motor. It won't run without a phase converter/vfd/3-phase power.

ken

[Skip McKenzie]

Ken, Ruperto, I checked on the phase before I bought the saw, it's a single phase motor. Does this motor have a centrifugal switch? I'm wondering if there is sawdust inside causing the problem. The case where the caps are was packed full of saw dust so I'm concerned about the motor internals. Looking at the condition of the saw it had zero maintence. I'll get motor name data in the morning and post what I find.

Skip

[ken carroll]

Skip,

Could well be packed with sawdust. There probably is a centrifugal switch in the motor which disconnects the start cap when it's up to speed. I just picked up an 82 vintage PM-66 with a Leeson 5hp 3ph motor - and like yours the box where the external connections are made to the motor wires was packed solid with sawdust. Of course, there's no centrifugal anything on a 3 phase motor!
I intend taking my motor apart to clean it out and I think it's a good idea that you do too.

ken

[Bryan Cowing]

sounds like the start capacitor. To test, remove belts, start saw, and spin the pulley. If it comes up to speed one of 2 capacitors is dead One capacitor may be whats called a run capacitor. $15 is what I paid for one on a 3 hp planer.

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Sounds like the starting switch or the start capacitor. To check the capacitor "First discharge capacitor. Then set volt-phm meter to R x 100 scale. Touch probes to capacitor terminals. If capacitor is OK, needle will jump to zero ohms and drift back to high. Steady zero ohms indicates a short circuit; steady high ohms indicates an open circuit." [courtsey Leeson Motor trouble-shooting chart]

The centrifugal start switch should be closed at rest and the weights and centrifugal force should open the contacts at speed.
I wouldn't be surprised if sawdust is packed in the switch keeping the contacts [supplying the start winding] open. Alternatively the switch could need replacement. I am assuming the start winding is intact.

The fix shouldn't be complicated nor expensive.

Ruperto

[Skip McKenzie]

The motor is a single phase, 5 hp. My meter does not have a Rx100 k setting, I tried on 200k, the cap showed 1 and moved up around 190 then dropped back to 1. Not being an electrician I'm not sure what the reading was. I just talked to the factory rep he gave me something else to try, but the start switch is suspect. I'm going to blow the motor out and see what happens. Considering I sold my Jet 3 hp xacta for what I thought was a killer deal, I'm not on my wifes good side right now.

[Ruperto Mendiones]

Skip:

The capacitor should stay on a high resistance after the charging your ohmmeter gave it. First thing I'd try is replacing the capacitor.

Is there a wiring diagram on the motor plate showing the jumper settings ? Is it set correctly for your voltage?
Once the capacitor is replaced [and the problem continues] check out the starter switch and the continuity of the start windings. Check that the start windings are not shorted to the frame.

Do you have 8 or 10 g wiring all the way back to the main power distribution? Aluminum wiring? There could be excessive voltage drop when you try to start the motor. Stick a voltmeter across the power terminals of the motor , try to start it and see what the supply voltage does.

And, when you find the problem, please post it as I'm all wrapped up in this mystery.

Ruperto

[Bill Bukovec]

Hi Skip,

Here's what worked for me when I had a similar problem.

Turn on the motor.

Smack the motor with a wooden mallet, hunk of wood or rubber mallet.

If the motor starts, you may have a centrifigal switch problem.

The motor on my jointer needs to be smacked to get it going (Haven't spent the time to fix it properly)

Is your switch a simple toggle type switch or is it a magnetic type switch?

You may have a bad connection within the magnetic switch.

Good Luck,

Bill

[Skip McKenzie]

Hi guy's, from all the trouble shooting it looks like the problem is in the motor internally. The wires from the breaker panel are 6 ga with an 8 gage ground, with a 50 amp breaker. I talked to the factory reps (Danny), the red jumper wire on the back of L1 needed to be conected to the front of L1. Connecting this jumper solved the start switch problem, however, the motor still did not start. I cleaned the start switch points in the end bell with no success, the caps checked out on a volt meter by a guy who knew the correct procedure. I ordered a new motor this morning but due to the holiday it will not show up untill a week from Tuesday or Wednesday. After a lot of phone calls and discussion with motor shops the opinion is the start windings are bad. I'll post a follow up when the motor arrives and is installed. I want to thank all of you who helped with trying to solve the problem, the Creek is very nice resource and is worth an enormous amount of value, Thanks again Skip

[Chip Lindley]

Skip, sounds like you have done your homework to track down the motor fault. It is a long journey, starting from scratch, but adds to your shop knowledge.

If you bought the PM66 "As-Is", it IS what it IS. But, if it was sold "As Working", contact the seller and state your case. If you can get the seller to refund any amount ($200 is about right), that might ease the pain of buying a motor.

By 2003 I believe Powermatic ceased using Baldor motors and used less reliable Chinese imports. Considering the inherent sticker shock, 3hp will be plenty for your saw. 5hp is a bit of overkill on a 10" cabinet saw under normal conditions. The 3hp Baldor on my '97 PM66 ripped 2-3/4" ash last week without complaint.

You can buy new, or look for a single-phase C-face motor with same frame size. (hole mounting pattern) C-faces are much easier to locate than the special-mount motor for a Unisaw. Avoid the Chinese stuff and spring for a name brand such as Baldor, Leeson, or Marathon. You will be glad you did.

Question: Is your 50A 8ga. circuit specifically for this table saw? Or is it a "one size fits all" circuit to fit any machine? Just wondering.

Happy New Year!
~Chip~

[Ruperto Mendiones]

A new motor certainly solves the problem.

But we still need a post mortem...
If the saw was running when it was taken out of service I find it hard to believe the start windings went bad in transit. Can you isolate the leads for this winding and take a resistance measurement? An open circuit will confirm the diagnosis. Otherwise we can only speculate there are coil-to coil shorts causing the failure.

Wishing you ease & success mounting the new motor...

Ruperto

[Skip McKenzie]

Follow up on my starting problem, the new motor solved the problem. The saw starts and runs, however there is a noise coming from the "new" bearings, I'm going to remove the arbor and have new higher quality bearings installed and hopefully be off to making some high quaiity sawdust. Thanks again for the help, Skip

[Chip Lindley]

Glad you got your PM66 running Skip! Noise from your newly-installed arbor bearings? Retracing your rebuild steps may reveal binding somewhere. I doubt even "economy" bearings would be noisy when new.

[Skip McKenzie]

The bearings I installed to replace the originals were $4.50 each, our local machine shop ordered new bearings for me at $15.00 each. There is no substitue for quality bearings, I knew better but installed the cheap bearings anyway. The saw runs much better and sounds like a PM66 is suppose to. Very happy and enjoying the new saw.

[Michael Schneider]

Skip,

Here is a troubleshooting guide, that may come in handy.

There are some useful diagrams.

http://www.pqmeterstore.com/crm_uploads/single-phase_motors_-_troubleshooting.pdf

If you prefer more text

http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_appfaqh.html

Good Luck,
Michael

[Jon Middleton]

Reply to an old thread. My PM66 won't start. The Reset button goes off when I push the Start button, and the Starter switch flashes when it stop. It starts to run at slow speed for a few seconds, then stop. The saw was working fine two days ago, I ripped some 2x4s lengthwise with it and turned it off. I tried to rip some more when the problem started. I bought the saw new in 2001, it has seen light use. Tiny amount of sawdust in the motor connection box, tiny bit in the switch box. The motor turns freely by hand. I called Customer Support and spoke with Bobby, but am not sure how to proceed. Ideas?

Edit: Pushed the reset button on the starter, works fine now.:D