First shop: to Festool or not to Festool

[Alexander Prikhodko]

I am about 6 months away from buying my first home, and I figured that now would be a good time to start looking for some tools that I will inevitably need for home renovation and basic furniture construction. The thinking process, is that since I do not need these tools right away, I can take my time and look for deals on Craigslist and Fleabay. Here is my dilemma, chances are that whatever house I end-up buying I will not have a lot of space for a dedicated shop.

The garage will most likely be sized for a single car, the basement will be used for a home theater; so that leaves me with a single, bedroom-sized room for a shop. I was thinking that the Festool MFT3, TS55, and the Bosch 4100 table saw would be a good alternative to a full-size cabinet saw and would work well in a small space. My goal is to be equipped to build some basic furniture and cabinets.

I have an opportunity to purchase a used MFT3 for $400. Should I pull the trigger? Are there any big deficiencies with my planned approach for setting up a small shop?

Thanks in advance

[Neil Brooks]

These are such personal decisions ... it's really hard to say.

My thoughts: if you buy the Festool options that you're considering, you'll have them for life, and -- likely -- with no regrets.

As a Bosch 4100 owner, though, I keep *itching* to get a cabinet saw -- much more out of want than need. My 4100 works well, cuts accurately, and makes its way through 8/4 hard maple.

But I like the idea of more power, a top-of-the-line fence, and the enhanced dust collection that comes with a legit cabinet saw.

And ... with the time that you DO have ... you could buy a used cabinet saw, really well, by watching CraigsList, or other sources for used.

Buy it once. Buy it right.

Nothing WRONG with the Bosch, but ... it's a Toyota Camry, not a Mercedes sedan ;)

[Alexander Prikhodko]

I would love to buy a cabinet saw. Especially with all of the glowing reviews that SawStop seems to be getting. My issue is space, which I probably will not have, and a cabinet saw takes up quite a bit of it.

[Matt Day]

A cabinet saw really doesn't take up much of a footprint - 27" deep x 30" or so wide + however big you want it. Put it on a mobile base, add some foldable extension wings, make your shelves/workbenches the same height as the TS and use them as outfeed supports, use it as a general purpose table/workbench like I do, etc. My shop is probably 15'x20' at the most with a structural column in the middle of it and my cabinet saw works just fine there. I break down sheet goods with a circular saw.

[William Nimmo]

My basement is half home theater and half woodshop. About 500 square ft each. Funny, when I am in the woodshop with all my Festools, I wish I didnt do the home theater thing. But then when I am using my theater I don't know what I would do without it. Except maybe get stuck watching DVR'd Opra with the wife upstairs.
Go slow, but go with the best. You will buy once and never look back.

[Neil Brooks]

Yeah. They do have a bigger footprint. That's for sure. They're also a bear to wrestle down steps, on your back ;)

One thing to consider, though, is that it isn't ALL "incremental" space.

Meaning: you'll almost certainly need a work/assembly surface. With a cabinet saw, you can build the saw INTO that infeed/outfeed table, and -- when not cutting -- use THAT surface as your workbench.

Many do.

I made a certain amount of peace with the notion that ... at some point ... my 4100 will either become a $$ loss, relative to what I paid for it, or ... a dedicated saw that always sports a dado stack -- a fairly nice luxury, and NOT beyond the 4100s abilities.

If your space options change, later, you could always make comparable decisions. The 4100 IS a very good saw -- within its limitations.

Good luck !

[Neil Brooks]

Ah.

I see the turbines of True Genius were all spinning, simultaneously :D

Lots of similar answers, all at once !

[Adam Shapiro]

I have the 4100 and the ts55. Like Neil, I've been able to use them to build plenty of stuff around the house but I keep longing for a cabinet saw sized table top, fence, dust collection, etc. The 4100 has plenty of power for what I need it for, but the small table and contractor fence means you have to find work arounds. That's fine, but work arounds take more time than doing something with the right tool in the first place. While your considering the size of a cabinet or hybrid saw vs the 4100, keep in mind that in order to really use the Bosch for a lot of things, you've got to set up side supports and an outfeed table. Since I've also got a really small area for a basement shop, I built a workbench around mine with a router table in it. If I'd started with a cabinet saw, I could've designed something that was essentially the same size and much more functional. That said, I don't know if the parallel guide set and MFT could completely replace the need for a table saw or not, I don't use them.

One other thing to keep in mind, which might negate everything I said above. I occasionally need to bring my 4100 outside to make a cut because the workpieces can't fit into my basement space. If you'll have a similar issue, than you may need to buy a portable saw regardless.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'd suggest getting the track saw and trying to go with out the table saw for awhile. I've read some interesting articles about going to a no tablesaw work shop lately. Having a full size cabinet saw I love, if I was starting over I think I'd take the money for it and sit on it for a bit. I'd guess the festool saw + hand saw could get a lot of what you need done. Maybe a bandsaw if you anticipate doing a lot of ripping.

[Paul Johnstone]

If you have time, watch CL for a used contractor or hybrid saw.. I had a portable table saw when I started (although not as nice as the Bosch) and it is really a night and day difference.
As others said, put it on a mobile base and push it to a corner. I have some small filing cabinets under mine for storage.
On warm days, you can open the garage door to have more infeed/outfeed space to use it.

I guess it's possible to do everything with a tracksaw and MFT, but there's some tasks that would be a huge PITA to do that way (both repetitively and accurately).

On the plus side though, Festool stuff really holds it's value on resale. If you bought it and decided it was not for you, you could probably recover at least 85% of your purchase cost (and least on the saw, don't know about the MFT).

[Burt Alcantara]

Forget the home theater. Buy a couple of iPhones and headphones and build a shop. Once you start you'll be hooked. You'll spend much more time in the shop then the home theater. Face it, what's on TV -- nothing. What movies are there -- garbage. So, with the shop, you can make beautiful things for you, your family, friends and who knows, maybe you'll sell stuff and make piles of dough.

Or, maybe not.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I had a Bosch 4000 with gravity rise stand for several years and it served me well. Although I could dial everything perfect, it wouldn't hold its settings very long and I'd have to adjust the measurement marker, and things like that. Got this saw and stand at Costco for $325 when it was on closeout.

Then I got a cabinet saw which was a grizzly 1023SLX for $400 from craigslist.

The difference was night and day. The motor on the grizzly just effortlessly cuts compared to the bosch. In addition, the noise level and vibrations are greatly reduced. The adjustments are just more robust and easier to make. Although I only cut with a home made splitter it just feels safer than the bosch. I havn't touched the bosch since I got the grizzly.

As for Festool. I have a few porter cable sanders (belt, detail, DA) and also a festool ETS 150 and Rotex 150. The festool sanders don't sand any better IMO, they just have less vibration and seem stronger. The ETS 150 is fairly quiet while the Rotex is pretty loud. Even the festool Rubin and Brilliant sand paper doesn't seem to last any longer than the Norton sand paper I use on my porter cable sanders. Hook up a festool vac to the porter cable sanders and dust reduction will be pretty much the same. The rotex needs some getting used to as it is pretty powerful and will wander if not controlled properly. I like the ETS 150 better than the rotex just because it's easier to turn on/off, control, lighter, and it's $200 cheaper to boot.

The only festool I see as being worth every penny is the track saw, the TS55. I can cut angles or irregular pieces and do things I couldn't do on a table saw. It's not exactly used frequently if you have a tablesaw, but I admit that it's handy to have for working with large sheet goods and crosscutting anything big or complex.

If I was in your shoes I would consider the Festool TS55 and a shop vac.
I would shop on CL for a cabinet saw or get a new grizzly. The extension tables can be your work table.
Instead of the MFT, just use sawhorses and sheets of wood. I got the Stanley Fatmax sawhorses and they make great work tables and save you money.
Get BORG brand sanders, drills, routers, etc. No need to go festool unless you want all the extra features. For example, the router can go on the track guide and has decent dust collection and fine adjustment of bit depth.

[Russell Smallwood]

If I were going to set up a new shop in a confined space I would take a very very hard look at a good combo machine.

Space, along with a good cabinet maker's bench are the two most under-appreciated, under-discussed things in the workshop.

I saw a Robland X31 (or something) in the local craig's list for $1300.

I have no idea what condition it was in, but you never know. I'm sure there are a lot of them out there gathering dust in people's basements who thought they might like to take up the hobby but decided they'd rather keep their fingers.

Just sayin'

[Matthew Hills]

I'm trying to figure out how you have money if you're about to buy a new home.
I'd definitely recommend cash in reserve for all the unexpected things that can happen.

Are you doing home-improvement type projects or furniture?

Home-improvement tools tend to vary a lot depending on the project. Pneumatic nailer + miter saw was really helpful for putting in moulding in one wing of our place. Jigsaw helpful for some cutouts for plumbing cleanouts. Sawzall good for cutting out old outlet boxes when I wanted to put in a larger box and bring in grounds, etc.

The Festool tracksaw is very nice for working on sheet goods. Even just pulled it out for a chicken coop recently.
If you're going to be doing solid wood with the table saw, are you planning on jointer+planer?

Regardless of which you're doing, do get good dust mask + filter...
Oh, and cordless drill. used everywhere.

Matt

[Dan Karachio]

Hi Alexander. Congratulations on the new home! Like you, buying a house generated a lot of tool purchases which eventually evolved into furniture making. You are going to have fun! Just make all kinds of things for your wife and the hobby will be encouraged! If you don't have a wife, then (in terms of the hobby) you are golden.

I have had or have all three things you are thinking about - the MFT, TS 75 (okay, not 55, but close enough) and the Bosch 4100 table saw. I'm not sure where to start. If you get the Bosch and get into furniture making you will soon be selling it and getting a contractor or cabinet saw. It's a great tool for a contractor on a construction site, but despite what the reviews say, it just isn't up to all the cuts you will need to make. I strongly recommend a big no on this one.

I love the heck out of my MFT/3, but now that I am doing less cabinet/built in projects and more furniture projects I rarely use my MFT with TS 75. I find that with my contractor saw (32" rip) and home made sleds I can more quickly and just as accurately cut sheet goods. I have other Festool products and I use the heck out of them - OF 1400 router, CT 22 dust extractor, 150/3 sander and a Domino. If you had to take away any of my Festools, the TS 75 would be the first to go without hesitation. It is amazing, it is super cool, it is designed like a space shop, but it just doesn't fit my needs and other tools do. You may be totally different, but I am just stating my experience. I say put the money into a good table saw. Sure they take up space, but they are the most useful and used space in almost any shop. If you do need to move it around, mobile bases solve this, but like others said, it will be the center of your shop. There are many good books/articles on small shops. Search amazon or look at Fine Woodworking for some articles ($14 or so online membership to 100000000s of articles and videos).

Here is one hard lesson learned from me. For both home ownership and wood working I think an essential tool is a good compound slider miter saw. I sort of skimped on a 12" non sliding compound Hitachi and even though I use it all the time and have for 5-6 years years, I absolutely hate it. Fence and table is not perfect, cuts are not perfect, dust collection is a joke. If I could go back I'd get a nice slider, maybe the new Bosch or the Makita. I should just bite the bullet, but I end up buying tools I don't have vs replacing this one. I may just bite the bullet and get the Kapex some day and be done with it forever.

The MFT is tough. I stand in front of it for almost everything. It is an outfeed for my table saw and I sand on it, route on it, drill on it, assemble on it, cover it in plastic and finish on it. I even draw and write on it. I have all the clamps and other things and you can do almost anything with it. However, it is not sturdy and I have a more traditional bench that I use for all handwork. If you have room for two benches, then you will love it, but as your only bench... I'm not sure. $400 is about $200 off, but do they give you any clamps? They are not cheap. I'm sorry, I just don't see it as essential or required for starting out - not it or the TS 55. The two can't replace a table saw (think dados and tenons and miters...) and if you have a table saw it just isn't that useful. However, if you can spare the money and can buy other tools, I say spring for the MFT for $400. It is that cool.

Sorry I am rambling here, but I went through this and made so many mistakes on what I bought. I was seduced by Festool and just had to have the TS 75, MFT..., but the pair is far from essential. If you have the Festool bug (easy enough), buy their other products! In retrospect, I think all those "essential shop tools" articles are right on target. Table saw, miter saw, planer, jointer, band saw. Build a bench, buy some nice hand tools, get a good sander and dust collector and you will be rocking.

Finally, while others may work well with mobile tools that can be wheeled out when needed, this drove me nuts and I felt it got in the way of being productive when I had limited time to wood work. It took a long time, but I figured out a fixed layout in my small shop (500-600 square feet) where I can use any tool instantly. Miter saw, drill press, jointer, planer, bandsaw, table saw and yes, even the TS 75.

Oh, of course any home owner MUST have a good cordless drill, impact driver and a ladder.

[Greg Portland]

Here is my dilemma, chances are that whatever house I end-up buying I will not have a lot of space for a dedicated shop.I try to give the following advice to every new hobby woodworker who asks me about tools ->

1) There are two ways to work with wood. The first is moving the wood through the tool and the second is moving the tool over the wood. With the first option, you will need room for at least 2x the length of your longest workpiece (due to infeed and outfeed space). Some woodworkers accomplish this by moving their tools around or opening garage doors. With the second option, you will not be moving the wood much at all, you will be moving the tools across the wood. You will only need 1x the length of the workpiece using this system. The Festool system as well as handtools are example of this work style. IMO, for smaller shops the second option makes far most sense. In your case where you do not even have a large door opening I would consider it a requirement.
2) Don't buy a tool until you actually need it.
3) There are often multiple ways to complete a given woodworking operation with different tools.

[Eiji Fuller]

Definitely get some festool. But no way will anything replace a cabinet saw. If you were going to start with just one shop tool I would vote for a cabinet saw. So versatile and accurate. Sure you can do sheet goods with the track saw but you'll be sacrificing accuracy and efficiency. I don't mind that sacrifice in the field but not in the shop.

[Alexander Prikhodko]

Whoa, tons of great advice. Thanks a bunch guys!

It seems that the overwhelming suggestion is to stay away from the MFT/ TS55/ Bosch combo and try to find space for a proper cabinet saw. I think I will wait until we buy the place, and see how much room I have to play with, and make my decision then.

In the meantime, I will focus on getting other items that I will need for general home improvement and my woodworking hobby. Here is a quick list, please let me know if I omitted anything important:

Have so far:
- Numerous small essentials: Hammers, screwdrivers, sockets, wrenches, rulers, levels, etc
- A bunch of DeWalt 18 volt tools: Jigsaw, Circular Saw, Sawsall, Hammer Drill
- Fein Multimax
- Dremel 8200
- Cadex 23 gauge pinner
- Small DeWalt compressor

Need to get still:
- Sliding Compound Miter Saw, most likely a Bosch or a Dewalt
- Sander, leaning towards the Festool RO 150 FEQ
- Fein Turbo II Shopvac
- Dovetail jig
- Biscuit joiner
- Kreg Jig
- 16 Gauge Finish Nailer
- Router (s)

Will get later, because of space issues:
- Table Saw, really want a SawStop
- Jointer
- Planer

Someone asked why I am buying these tools before I buy the house. The answer is simple, me and my fiancée decided to wait until we are married before we make this purchase. Furthermore, she is getting ready to finish Law School, so her additional income will be a big help. Finally, by relying on all of the great information available on this forum, I am trying to save a little bit of money by buying these tools used and ahead of time, instead of paying full retail price and buying them when the need arises. I tried to focus on only essential tools, that as a DIYer I will need regardless. Furthermore, if I buy something that I do not use I can re-sell without taking a big loss, since I bought used in the first place.

Thanks again for everyone’s recommendations! :)

[Matt Day]

Hold off on the dovetail jig until you really need it (if you end up needing it at all that is). I have one and used it when I built a dresser that has 6 drawers and it came in handy. Other than that project I haven't used it at all.

[Scot Ferraro]

If you have a line on an MFT/3 for $400, I would jump on it. Festool is a great system and this is one key component. It will not replace the need for a workbench, especially if you use hand tools, but it really does enhance the use of Festool tools and it gives a great way to crosscut accurately and clamp your work in a variety of places. Since space is going to be an issue, buy a good bandsaw. This is much more versatile than a table saw IMHO and properly tuned up, it will rip very accurately and you can use it for all kinds of joinery. Use the tracksaw for crosscuting and working with sheet goods. Since you might be working inside, dust collection is critical and Festool has you covered there. Buy a good dust collector for the bandsaw and any other stationary tools you acquire. I would also invest in a good jointer/planer such as the Hammer A331 or something comparable. You really need a good way to flattening and mill lumber. Combined with a bandsaw, tracksaw and other portable tools, I do not think that there will be much that you cannot tackle. If you end up having space for a table saw, then I would get one too as it does make certain operations fast and accurate. I have just ventured into the Festool world over the last 18 months and I have been thinking that I might sell my table saw at some point to acquire more floor space. I am not a professional where time is money so if it takes me a little longer to do something it is no big deal. Having the real estate back that the TS takes up would make for a more pleasant shop.

Scot

[Ray Newman]

Will the Fein Shop Vac be adequate dust collection??....

[Christopher Stahl]

I'm going to be the devils advocate here and say you could get away with just an MFT and TS55. While I have a large shop where space is not an issue, I could certainly survive without my Unisaw, if I had to. I probably use my MFT as much as my table saw and I can make repeatable, accurate cuts. Heck, if you had two MFTs you really be in good shape. I see them used all the time. I use my TS55 to cut down sheet goods on some blue board before even taking them into the shop. At that point, they will be down to a size you could use on an MFT. Buy yourself a decent bandsaw and you'll have a great set up.

The MFT is a powerful system. There are a couple websites dedicated to teaching people how to make the most of the MFT. Do a google search.

[Michael Schneider]

There are many options that will work for you. You might take a peek at.

http://www.eurekazone.com/content/ez-one

Have fun setting up your shop. You can have fun and cut wood with many setups.

Take care,
Michael

[John Coloccia]

re: space and everything else

I find that the biggest impediment to getting projects done isn't space for stationary tools but space for assembly and layout. I'm in the get a nice TS and build a good assembly table/outfeed table/storage around it. I wish I had done that but my shop is centered around making instruments. Now that I'm moving into other things like furniture, the lack of flat table tops for assembly really makes the job 10 times harder than it should, and unfettered access to all of my tools does not make up for it in the slightest.

[Joe Jensen]

I have been an active WW for over 30 years. IF I were forced into and small space, and knowing what I've learned over the past 30 years, I would go with the Festool system.

Pros;
- Fantastic build quality, lack of vibration, and smoothness
- Amazing dust collection, I've owned lots of tools and they are best in every tool category
- Really well integrated system. All the tools work together and share things like the MFT and rails.

Cons;
- Price

You would want and MFT, parallel fence setup, Saw, router, a couple of sanders.

the other things that are essential if you are working solid wood, are a jointer and planer. Many will tell you how you can get by with a planer only and a sled, but having done that, ITS PAINFULL.

[Greg Portland]

It seems that the overwhelming suggestion is to stay away from the MFT/ TS55/ Bosch combo and try to find space for a proper cabinet saw.Most people are just telling you to buy a cabinet saw because that is the standard thinking (touted by magazines and pros with larger shops). You should really stop and think about your work space and how you plan to accomplish work. As I mentioned in my earlier post, a table saw will take 2x the length of your workpiece + the saw size. For a cabinet saw, this is going to be in the range of 19' (for a 8' board) and that is before you squeeze your body between the rear wall and the wood. With hand tools or a Festool style system you will only need ~10' of space (8' workpiece plus some breathing room). Note that Dewalt and other companies sell similar tracksaw options as Festool.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I purchased several Festool tools because my basement shop is impractical to carry 4'x8' sheets or even long boards to. I rough cut items in the garage and take the components to the shop for final cutting. I wrestled with the decision to buy the MFT and finally decided yes. For my purposes, the MFT has been one of the best if not the best tool I have. It is great for clamping panels flat. It is great for holding and clamping in general. I have a tablesaw but its use has dropped a lot since the Festool. Could I do without it? Probably not, because the Festool is not handy for me to rip with. I'm not saying its bad at it, just that for my situation there are more convenient.

Should you get the Festool? Tough decision. Think through how you will work. I'm sure you won't regret it.

I've never used Eurekazone tools or the Dewalt track system but I'm sure they will work well also. I have a wide range of brands, buying what I think is the best value.

There have been lots of good advice. I'm not sure any choice you make would be bad, just adapt and move on. That's just part of woodworking. :)

[Van Huskey]

Forget the home theater. Buy a couple of iPhones and headphones and build a shop. Once you start you'll be hooked. You'll spend much more time in the shop then the home theater. Face it, what's on TV -- nothing. What movies are there -- garbage. So, with the shop, you can make beautiful things for you, your family, friends and who knows, maybe you'll sell stuff and make piles of dough.

Or, maybe not.


Blasphemy! A real man needs both, period.

For the space challenged the Festool route is an excellent way to go along with the Bosch TS. IF you can muster a little more room a short rip cabinet saw on a mobile base is a BIG step up.

[Alexander Prikhodko]

No way am I am going to skip the home theater. There is nothing like 120 inches of projector screen goodness, and some serious wattage for a great soundtrack :)

Based on everyone’s responses it is becoming clear that there is no right or wrong methods for setting up a small shop, just personal preference. Over the last couple of days I have been doing a lot of thinking and research, and I decided to hold off on buying the MFT/ TS55 combo.

I was looking over a number of cabinet table saws, and I noticed that the depth of the tool varies from 33-36 inches. So potentially, when not in use, I could position the saw against a wall and still park a car in a one car garage.

I was thinking of building the shop around mobile surfaces and multi-purpose workstations. For example, I could build in a router into the extension wing of the cabinet saw. With the fences removed and the table saw blade and router lowered, this would double-up as a great assembly table/ bench. When working on a project I would simply wheel the table saw into the middle of the garage, hook-up power and dust collection, and I am good to go. Perhaps I could build a few smaller tables on wheels; these could double-up as additional work surfaces or serve as out-feeds for the table and miter saws.

Some food for thought…

[Justin Bukoski]

Go the festool route. More and more, my table saw is an assembly table and the place my router table is hooked to.

In addition buy some good hand planes. Start with a low angle jack and a block plane along with a set of card scrapers and go from there. To me, a table saw is a tool that works faster but not necessarily better.

[Greg Portland]

Alexander,
If you decide to go that route then definitely make -everything- in your shop mobile.