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michael case
12-28-2010, 12:17 AM
Hi Neanderthal folks,

I have turned off all my power tools so you can hear me. I have a question about steel. I am trying to decide which way to go on a Veritas plane - A2 or O1. I have had very bad experiences with the A2 steel in the NEW Stanley "sweeheart" planes as well as the Woodriver planes. In both cases, the steel was ridiculously brittle and chipped up in short order. The thin steel in my cheapo plastic-handled Stanleys actually holds an edge much better. So my guess is that A2 is much more difficult to get right than O1. My question is this - Is the A2 in the Veritas planes superior and able to provide the edge retention that everyone claims for A2 or would I be better off with the their O1 blades? I assume that Veritas A2 steel would be superior. I sharpen with a Tormek and Japanese waterstones.

Jon Toebbe
12-28-2010, 12:31 AM
I've had no complaints with my Low-angle Jack plane irons. I seem to recall that A2 tends to do better with a somewhat steeper secondary bevel than O1. That could be the source of your trouble with the "Sweetheart" and Wood River irons, if their primary bevel was ground to 25 degrees.

Johnny Kleso
12-28-2010, 1:42 AM
01 = Sharper smaller grained steel
A2 = harder longer lasting edge with larger gained steel

Russell Sansom
12-28-2010, 3:50 AM
I have something like 10 a-2 chisels and irons from Hock, LV and LN. The all cut extremely well with no softness ( folding ) or brittleness ( snapping off ). They sharpen exactly as advertised; not tremendously differently from the best carbon steel. I have to suggest that it's not the steel, but the quality of the manufacture. You wonder why a concern the size of Stanley doesn't notice the behavior of their irons.
BTW, some irons need to have a 32nd or a 16th removed before they get to the properly tempered part. It's too much trouble for me...and you can still be left with a question mark. I have to guess the backs are not flat either.
A-2 or O-1. Until you're pretty tightly in the loop with your edge tools you're not going to notice the difference. You put a nice hollow on the iron with the Tormek, 2 or 3 swipes at each grit of water stone, and you'll have a perfect razor edge. All 3 top tool makers I noted above provide irons that have been lapped on the backs. I've been able to get the lap marks out and get a mirror on the back within a couple minutes. Again, you probably don't have the instrument sensitive enough to register the differences among the three. Just pick one and you should be good.

Mark Baldwin III
12-28-2010, 7:13 AM
This plays right into my little project for the day. I'm taking a few plane irons and a chisel to work and putting them in the hardness tester. Results to be posted this evening.

Prashun Patel
12-28-2010, 8:11 AM
How did you sharpen yr Woodriver & Stanley planes? I've power sharpened some blades too aggressively on my Worksharp. This lead to a brittle edges.

The nice thing about the couple Veritas planes I own: they come fairly well honed (for me) out of the box and lasted for longer than I ever thought possible. That provided a good model for me.

The O2 is supposed to be softer than the A2, which means it's easier to sharpen, but needs to be sharpened more frequently than A2.

george wilson
12-28-2010, 9:29 AM
There are 3 most true statements posted thus far: Could be the way the A2 blades were manufactured(poor chemistry),and,A2 does require a blunter sharpening angle than 01 to retain its edge. Finally,many blades do not get down into the good area until you have ground off a fair amount of the original cutting edge. This is because there may be a certain amount of carbon loss near the end of the blade when it is heated to very high temperatures during hardening. As a maker of a lot of A2 tools(especially punches and dies,I know this is absolutely a fact. A2 suffers a loss of carbon when at hardening temperature unless it is in an inert gas furnace,or at least PROPERLY wrapped in a sealed stainless steel envelope. It is also possible that the steel used was of poor chemistry,or might not have been gotten hot enough. Chipping steel sounds like yours is too hard,though. If it was my plane iron,I might decide to re temper it at 400º. However,I warn you,that stove ovens can be off by 75º,and there is only a window of 25º to get the best results from your steel. Go over that,and your blade is too soft. Some ovens run hot. Then,you are in trouble if you do not have facilities to accurately re harden the blade free from oxygen. The best way to re temper a blade is to use a toaster oven WITH,WITH,WITH a GOOD high temperature thermometer from Brownell's Gunsmith Supplies inserted into it(I blew out one by touching a wire when inserting it,be careful!!) You CANNOT trust the cheap thermometers that are built into the units.

To see if your steel is AT LEAST too hard,take a NEW,fine,Nicholson file,and see if the edge can be filed. just try a little,or you will ruin the file. If it files ,there has been carbon loss, or it wasn't hardened completely,and you are out of luck. If it is file hard,you can re temper the blade to 400º.

I knew old timers who thought their old wood working chisels were the best when they were WELL worn back. They weren't A2,either. that had more to do with getting away from the hardest areas of the tempering than anything else,though. Chisels were heated from the tang area,and heat was allowed to creep towards the cutting end,which ended up being the hardest area. I have had old English tools of the BEST makes,that were SO hard,they would not hold an edge. I had to carefully re temper them softer.

Try grinding back the cutting edge as much as 1/8" and re establishing the bevel at a steeper angle than you would use for 01.

Rob Lee
12-28-2010, 10:06 AM
Hi Neanderthal folks,

(snip) My question is this - Is the A2 in the Veritas planes superior and able to provide the edge retention that everyone claims for A2 or would I be better off with the their O1 blades? I assume that Veritas A2 steel would be superior. I sharpen with a Tormek and Japanese waterstones.

Hi Michael -

There should be no real differences among A2 steels - where a steel-related difference will appear is with hardening, and and bevel angle. A2 likes to be at least at a bevel angle of 25-30 degrees - below that, you may find it chipping (depends on the hardening).

If you buy one from us, and don't like it - we'll be glad to swap for O1.

Cheers -

Rob

george wilson
12-28-2010, 10:21 AM
If the steel is of Chinese origin(which Wood River most likely is using ),I've heard horror stories plenty about stuff such as old ball bearings and other junk that ruins machine tool's cutters,found embedded in it. This is talk about mild steel,of course. It does cause me to be cautious about ANY steel,tool steel or otherwise,that the Chinese might make. Their Quality Control isn't very good.

David Weaver
12-28-2010, 11:35 AM
IME, with different brands of irons, most of the A2 irons will be prone to chipout until you've ground them a couple of times, regardless of brand. You can do one of two things, you can sharpen the final bevel to 35 degrees for a while, or you can grind them a couple of times.

If you are not sharpening with oil stones (and you indicated you're not) then they (a2) are well worth the effort and will leave just as good of a surface as O1 but last longer.

With what you use for sharpening, the only way I wouldn't go with O-1 is if you're attached to the idea of sharpening at 25 degrees to get as large of a relief angle as possible.

michael case
12-29-2010, 2:22 PM
Once again the Neanderthal people have been great! Thanks to everyone for these very informative answers.