Power tools from CHINA............

[Donny Lawson]

I'm not one to buy top of the line power tools so I went out looking at HD and Lowes and just looked on the box and the tools such as DeWalt,PC,Hatachi,Bosch and whatever other ones they had and the box read made in CHINA. So one should be just as good as the next one. Some have a little more extras than others. I know most items are made there but what is made in USA??????????. plus, if it's made in the US it costs 2-3 times more. I think there should be more things made here and keep the price down where regular people can afford them. Hopefully I didn't open a can of worms but where do we draw the line?
Donny

[Peter Pedisich]

Donny, there is a lot you can do. First take a look at some of the made in USA websites that list hundreds of companies that still manufacture in the USA.
Then you can buy from them even when it cost more if you believe it is the right thing to do. Second thing is you should accept stuff made in Canada just as if it were made in the US because they are our neighbors and they are good folks that make good stuff.
And there is a wide range of quality coming from China, as design and engineering count for much, it's not just the manufacturing/assembly that makes for a quality product. Some stuff from China is of excellent build quality - that's the scary part!

[Jonathan Spool]

Funny that no one thinks poorly of purchasing non USA tools when they buy Festool!

[Dan Hintz]

What makes you think/believe that items made in China are automatically the same?

People really need to get away fro this line of thinking...

[Pat Barry]

I would go by the brand name and brand reputation more than by where the product is assembled or made. If its a DeWalt it was designed by DeWalt, not China and it will be a good tool. Made in USA doesn't mean its better in anyway (unfortunately). Times have changed and that's the way the global economy works now.

[Phil Thien]

If its a DeWalt it was designed by DeWalt, not China...

I don't think that is universally true.

I know the former manager of engineering of a large tool manufacturer and much of the design was off-shored, as well. He was laid-off.

[Peter Pedisich]

Funny that no one thinks poorly of purchasing non USA tools when they buy Festool!

I certainly don't. Festool makes excellent products, and often there is no direct USA made equivalent. Buying USA made and USA brands are two very different things. I have no interest in buying a Porter-Cable product made in China, for several personal reasons.
I also completely understand why people don't mind buying from China. The quality of the items has improved markedly in the last 5 years, and it allows people to buy a tool that fits within their budget.
If it is important enough to people to buy products made in US factories where they pay the workers a respectable wage, in good working conditions, building a product engineered to perform and last, and enough of them are willing to pay more for it, understanding it is unreasonable to expect American workers to compete with the wages paid in China, then things may change. I think they are - look at Lie-Nielsen, and Bridge City tools, and Mortise Pal, and EZ Smart...

[Rod Sheridan]

I believe you can buy great stuff made in China, you just need to pay for it, just like any other country.

I buy made in Canada, the USA or the EU equally.

I don't buy Chinese made equipment if I can avoid it due to social and environmental programs (or lack there of).

If Porter Cable or DeWalt are made in China, then I would buy Festool or some other non Chinese brand.

If China developed good environmental and social programs I would then consider them equally with the other countries.

Regards, Rod.

[Rick Fisher]

I just bought some Blue Spruce Chisels, Made in the USA.. They seem to have flawless quality. I can certainly see people's hesitancy to the price, but they should be " lifetime" chisels..

American and Canadian Manufacturing of the Machinery we use seems to have dissapeared more than in Europe. It seems that the Europeans went to manufacturing quality and the North American manufacturers became distributors of Asian Imports..

Buying Festool is IMO a way of buying exceptional quality, and supporting a company that still believes in making things at home, even if home is Germany.. lol.

[Peter Pedisich]

Buying Festool is IMO a way of buying exceptional quality, and supporting a company that still believes in making things at home, even if home is Germany.. lol.

I agree 100%. Festool has made a commitment to the workers and long term health of their own country - I wish DeWalt/PC would do the same!:(
To be fair to B&D, the new Unisaw is awesome (they got one of the new made in USA ones at work) and seems to be built to last, although I can't know if that's true just by staring at it!:eek:

[fred klotz]

As far as Bosch: It seems that they make some tools in China, to be marketed by HD/Lowes. Those stores do the warranty. The same model tool can often be found in a real tool store, made in Switzerland, Germany, USA, warranted by Bosch. You will pay more. You may recall that Bosch tools weren't found in the BORGs for some time.

[Dave MacArthur]

This thread is the same as 50 other threads in the last year, "stuff is made in China, what is made in US, someone should pay for tools made in the US (but not me)". Followed by 500 threads demonstrating that 98% of us will in fact vote with our wallets for lower prices so long as the machine basically functions OK.

Sorry, but it gets old, and the opening post is self-contradicting and in fact self-explanatory:


I'm not one to buy top of the line power tools [...]if it's made in the US it costs 2-3 times more. I think there should be more things made here and keep the price down where regular people can afford them.
There's your answer. It DOES cost 2-3 times more to make in the US, there's no way around it due to various less costly regulations and cheaper labor elsewhere, so "regular people" CAN'T afford them or at least WON'T afford them when something else acceptable is available for half-price, and it's never going to change so long as customers like you and myself are "not one to buy top of the line power tools".


So one should be just as good as the next one --strange assumption and false, country of origin doesn't == sameness; there are plenty of products made in the US that give a wide range of difference and quality, Ford does not equal GM does not equal domestically built Honda. And about four million other examples so numerous to think of that the assumption is proven specious on first reflection.


where do we draw the line --WE don't draw the line anywhere. Every consumer draws their own lines. If there is any "we" then it is exposed by market share as an indicator of what the vast majority of "we" are doing. And it would appear that "we" are flocking in droves to decently engineered power tools built in various other countries at costs that allow us to all save a bundle. Furthermore, it looks like "THEY" (company directors and stockholder owners--really "we") draw the line somewhere in Asia also, as most power-tool companies doing business in the US source at least one line of tools in Asia, and there's been zero backlash from the company owners about this--it seems to make them money, which is of course the reason for their existence.

If "you" (whoever you are, not directing this reply to anyone in particular) buy a tool from SawStop, Powermatic, Jet, Grizzly, Delta, Ryobi, DeWalt, Bosch, Rigid, Hitachi, Makita, etc., then you draw the line (in most cases for most tools) somewhere over in Asia also.

So what? Good tools in most cases, and between me and the guy screwing the parts together in Asia is a giant vertical economic supply chain complete with dealers, retailers, floor salespeople, managers, cashiers, janitors, truckers, ship crewman, dock-workers, accountants, marketers, ad-people, shelf-stockers, union leaders, management, CEOs, CFOs, CIOs, IT folks, secretaries etc. etc... ALL making a living off my purchases, and probably 90% of it folks like you and me right here in the old USA. Business and trade and national economies are so vastly more complex than "buy made in USA", that it just always seems naively foolish to me to take a stance on a purchase unless I have some idea of where and to whom all my money is actually going to... If a company is publicly owned and dominantly owned by the US market, then that's where all the profits are going in the end.

Rambling now, exit soap box. ;)

[Bryan Morgan]

This thread is the same as 50 other threads in the last year, "stuff is made in China, what is made in US, someone should pay for tools made in the US (but not me)". Followed by 500 threads demonstrating that 98% of us will in fact vote with our wallets for lower prices so long as the machine basically functions OK.

Sorry, but it gets old,

<snipped for brevity>




You said it! Thanks! :)

[Rick Fisher]

25 years ago.. I was a teenager.. my dad was a General Contractor.. He had a 2 year old Makita Circular saw.. I remember him saying he paid $159.00 for it .. I went to work for the lumberyard he bought his supplies from.. Circular saws at that time, in Canada, cost more than they do today..

Back then, when he bought a drill or a circ saw, he treated it like it was made of gold. It was an expensive item.. I remember when Bostitch Nailer came on the scene, we retailed them for $600.00 ... Put that in todays dollars, that nailer would probably be $2000.00 ..

There was a time that a contractor could make money because he had tools that his competitors did not have.. It reduced his labor costs.. This is much the way the millwork and Cabinet shops operate today.. A new $250,000 CNC will make one shop more competitive than his neighbor..

Tools have gone from "coveted" possessions to commodities.. My dad had one router and made a living using it .. I have 6.. In his dollars, he likely paid what I paid for all 6..

To turn tools into such low cost machines, production and automation needed to be moved to China or Malaysia.. This is what the market wanted..

[Matt Meiser]

I think there should be more things made here and keep the price down where regular people can afford them.

So you are volunteering for a massive pay cut and to waive any benefits? OK with pollution like Beijing? OK without safety regulations and no safety net (worker's comp) when they don't work?

Didn't think so...
:)

By the way there are a lot of companies competing very nicely in the US. A lot of them are privately-owned companies that aren't tied to worrying about how wall street will react to next quarters numbers. Many aren't and are just getting it right (take a look at the transformation Ford has pulled off in the last few years, of course helped by major missteps by major competitors at the same time.)

[Will Overton]

It isn't that the average person can't afford a high priced, quality tool. Most can.

The difference today is that the average person getting into woodworking (or any hobby) today wants to start with a shop full of all the tools.

I remember when my father got his table saw. My mother got it for him for Christmas. It didn't come with a motor, so he used it with an old refrigerator motor. For some later occaision he got a genuine tablesaw motor. Over the years he slowly acuired more quality tools. Much was done with Rube Goldberg setups, but everything got done.

Today we [myself included] all want not only a selection of router bits, but a router for each bit, so we don't have to go through the trouble of changing bits.

Maybe "He who dies with the most tools (toys) wins" should be changed to ...
"He who dies with the best tools wins"

That would take a major shift in mindset.

[Richard Wagner]

There was a time when I would not purchase anything made in China. I wanted "Made in USA" and nothing else. I bought what I thought was some of the best for what I wanted to do with it. One day I bought a new router with a well known brand name stamped on it. Paid a good price for it too. I used it for a long time and was very pleased with the way it performed. Some time later, when I was cleaning out the shop and storage area, I came upon the box the router had been packed in. I save those things in case I need to return the item. To my shock, printer on the box in plain English.....you guessed it....."Made in China".

There is little else that can be said. Try to buy the best quality you can afford and forget about where it is manufactured. It will likely be China no matter what the name on the box/tool.

[Steven Hardy]

I would go by the brand name and brand reputation more than by where the product is assembled or made. If its a DeWalt it was designed by DeWalt, not China and it will be a good tool. Made in USA doesn't mean its better in anyway (unfortunately). Times have changed and that's the way the global economy works now.

Hmmmm...respectfully ,I find that statement to be humerous. Call me a "hobby historian" if you will, but as I recall:
1 Magellan was participating in the "global economy" when he was killed in the Philippines.
2 Christopher Columbus was looking for India when he sailed west (global economy prospects).Columbus was "outsourced" from Italy by Spain)
3 Gunpowder originated in China and global trade enabled its spread around the world.
4 The America's were colonized by spain,england,france etc,for the global economy(gold ,silver,chocolate,tobacco coffee and more.
5 The slave trade was a BIG TIME global economy.
6 Japan decided to attack the USA in world war 2 AFTER we objected openly to their
invasion of China and embargoed any more raw material shipments to Japan.
7 The Boston tea party was a dumping of imported tea into the harbor.

The more things change (over the last 5 centuries) the more they stay the same.....only the terminolgies have changed.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

I will remind you that politics are not allowed at this website. That includes international politics.

[Van Huskey]

What makes you think/believe that items made in China are automatically the same?

People really need to get away fro this line of thinking...

+1 not many if any hand tools made in the US anymore BUT you have plenty of European options from Bosch, Festool et al

[Micheal Roth]

I believe the Makita sliding miter saw is manufactured in the U.S. and is a fine product. This may be the product you'll want to buy.

[Greg Portland]

You will be hard pressed to find any of the products listed in this thread that are entirely made within one country. The motors may be built in Mexico, the raw ore from Russia, the castings made in Vietnam, the machining in China, & the final assembly in the US. It is extremely rare for all the parts of the tool to be built within one country or factory.

[Dan Hintz]

You will be hard pressed to find any of the products listed in this thread that are entirely made within one country. The motors may be built in Mexico, the raw ore from Russia, the castings made in Vietnam, the machining in China, & the final assembly in the US. It is extremely rare for all the parts of the tool to be built within one country or factory.
Correct. The important factors in a final tool's quality are:
1) Quality of build materials (e.g., purity of steel, good lacquer on motor windings, etc.)
2) Final level of machining (e.g., ways ground to within 0.0005" and heat hardened)
3) Quality control of the assembly process

Who throws their namebadge on it at the end of the assembly line, what country does the assembly or shipping, etc. mean little if any of the above three items are ignored. #1 means nothing for a quality motor core if #3 is crewed up and the assembler keeps nicking the lacquer off during winding. #2 means nothing for a lathe bed if #1 is screwed up and the iron is of highly impure.

[Matt Day]

I think the problem is most Americans don't want to pay for quality tools that are made in an environment that are up to OSHA standards and that pays their workers a living wage. It's hard for any American company to make good products and pay their overhead with that attitude. Good products more money to make, there's no way around that, and you get what you pay for.

Luckily, most tools at HD and Lowes are geard toward Harry Homeowner who's standard of accuracy is about 1/100th of a woodworkers so they can get buy with the lower end tools. Accurate, high quality tools with a long life have a cost associated with them.

[Steve H Graham]

Unions and bad management and unrealistic wages and benefits created a price vacuum, and the Chinese filled it. That's the sad truth. We brought this on ourselves. You can have lawyer wages and Cadillac benefits and a cushy pension, and you can resist automation and efficiency, OR you can have a company that stays in business. You can't have both. The free market is like the laws of physics; it always wins in the end.

When I started shopping for big tools, I heard the "buy American" and "old iron" lines, and like an idiot, I listened. I ended up spending $3,000 to put a 40-year-old Clausing lathe with "very light use" (the dealer's phrase) in my garage. It looks like they rolled it here, end over end, from the New England dealer's place.

The seller was a revered machine dealer, whose name I will not mention. He sold me a machine with the wrong motor. He also sold me a bunch of Japanese mikes which were ruined, and when I tried to get them replaced, he hid like a scared kid, refusing to answer my calls and emails. I got no warranty. I got no accessories, except for a live center and a chuck. The lathe was belt-driven instead of the variable speed model the seller advertised.

I started looking for things like follower rests and steady rests. The prices for this old junk are beyond belief, and it shows up on Ebay once in a blue moon. Some machine dealer offered to sell me some metric gears for the Clausing. He wanted hundreds of dollars. I told him to forget it. For that kind of money, I could get an electronic lead screw and do ten times what his ancient, hard-to-use gears would do.

If I had bought a Grizzly, I'd have a 17" swing over a gap, instead of 12" all the way down. I'd have a warranty, lots of accessories, and customer service. I wouldn't have had to buy a VFD.

When I looked for a mill, I found Ebay and the online dealers to be a waste of time. The best deal I could find around here was a Bridgeport that looked like it had been hit by a bomb. The price as $4950, and they were not interested in negotiating (which is probably why they still have it). They also had a bare-bones Millrite, which would have been only slightly overpriced had they thrown in delivery. With the $400+ cost of delivery added, the price was too insulting to pay.

I ended up paying a few hundred dollars more for a Taiwan-made, Chinese-assembled meehanite mill with a big table, a DRO, power feed, and a variable speed head. My vise is Taiwanese. My rotary tables are Taiwanese. Most of the other stuff is Chinese. I love it.

I'd be happy to pay 20% more for an American product. But three times as much? Five times as much? I'm not willing to do that. This is a hobby, not a job. If I had to pay that kind of money for my tools, I wouldn't buy them at all. A lot of people who would otherwise be unable to get into metalworking and woodworking have been able to buy in because of the low cost of foreign tools.

Chinese stuff is getting better and better. A lot of it is as good as or better than American, and it's going to keep improving. A few years from now, you'll be able to buy a quality Chinese car for half the cost of a Ford. The companies already exist, and one of them is run by a guy who makes Thomas Edison and Henry Ford look like morons. He already beat Toyota in the Chinese market! If people are crying about routers and lathes, wait until the car industry gets hit. The UAW and the Big Three will either cease to exist or take drastic cuts.

We should have been preparing for this with automation and reform. Instead we buried our heads in the sand and told each other Americans were the master race. Unfortunately, Asians have better educations, work harder, accept lower wages, and take more pride in their work. It's amazing that they didn't bury us years ago.

[Matt Day]

Unions and bad management and unrealistic wages and benefits created a price vacuum, and the Chinese filled it. That's the sad truth. We brought this on ourselves. ... It's amazing that they didn't bury us years ago.

Well that's uplifting! Happy New Year!:D

[Steve H Graham]

Sorry. I just get tired of being criticized for buying Chinese stuff.

[Peter Pedisich]

Sorry. I just get tired of being criticized for buying Chinese stuff.

Steve, your main post brings up some valid points - yes there is plenty of blame to go around - but we can look at the bright side...many of us have machines from overseas, but we are all making stuff in the USA!