Cyclone opinions/ advice needed

[Brian Cosgrove]

I believe I am going to get an Oneida V3000 3hp cyclone, and have based my decision on the numerous threads on this site. I have also read alot of Bill Pentz's site as well. I have a 24 x 36 shop, with the stationary tools pretty much confined to a 24 x 24 section. I have a Hammer A3-31 12" jointer/planer combo and am awaiting delivery of a Felder FB600 bandsaw (5.5hp) and Hammer K3 sliding saw. I also have a Delta 17-959 drill press and 12" miter saw, as well as router table. I plan to run 6" lines from cyclone to all stationary machines, with the longest run being to the jointer/planer (20ft horizontal along ceiling, long radius 90 elbow, 3 feet solid down and flex to machine.) All other runs will be shorter. Only one machine will be in use at a time. I like the Clearvue cyclone, but do not really care for the mdf blower housing and transition piece (strictly because of aesthetics. I prefer solid metal). For those who have the Oneida V3000, do you wish you would've got the V5000 5hp model? Also, is there any downside to getting the larger model? The couple hundred dollars difference isn't really an issue. Can you oversize a dc? The main thing I did notice is the difference of air filter size between the clearvue and oneida. Is this going to be a major factor? Also, if so, has anyone here ever added larger filters to the Oneida? Would that help or hurt performance? If anyone has an opinion on a compatible, quality blower that I can put on a Clearvue, I would be open to using that system. Thanks for reading this long post, and I appreciate anyone's advice.

P.S. In addition to the cyclone, I may add an air cleaner at a later time to clean up additional fine dust that may linger in the shop.

[Paul McGaha]

Hi Brian,

I have a 2 HP Oneida Dust Gorilla. My shop is a 2 car garage. I have the basic tools (Table Saw, Jointer, Planer, Drum Sander, Shaper, Band Saw, Miter Saw).

My unit was sized by Oneida. They told me so long as I'm only running one tool at a time a 2 HP would cover all my tools and then some. I have to say it does pull the dust out of the tools. If I had to do it again though, I would have done at least a 3 HP because it was only about $100 more than a 2 HP. I may even have done a 5 HP which was only $300 more than a 2 HP. These extra $$$ are only a fraction of the cost of the complete system.

I regret I didnt upgrade a little. But like I said the 2 HP does pull the dust out of the machines as Oneida said it would.

Good luck with it. I'd buy Oneida again and recommend them to anyone.

PHM

[Rod Sheridan]

Brian, yes you can have too large of a cyclone.

Once you have a machine large enough to generate the static preessures and flow rates required in your ducts, that's as much as you need.

If your ducts are sized correctly, the ductwork will be a limiting factor.

Provide the airflow requirements for your machines to Oneida, and have them do a calculation for you.

Felder will have the specs for all 3 machines, and your K3 has below and above table collection so provide both numbers to Oneida.

I have a 1.5HP Oneida that's at its limit with my B3, however I only have 10 feet of duct so it works fine.

Don't worry about the filter sizes, Oneida do the calculations for you.

Once you collect the dust at the source, you won't need an air cleaner, since if you do, you also need to wear a dust mask as the dust is in the air.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent Chasson]

Brian, yes you can have too large of a cyclone.


What is the downside?

[Jim O'Dell]

I've had the Clear Vue for 5 years now...I haven't seen an issue with the MDF. I did put 3 coats of poly on the MDF before assembling, and since I exhaust outside, I rebuilt the transition, but still used MDF for it. The main reason I went with the CV was that it followed Bill's parameters for the cone ratio. I have not been disappointed on second. Jim.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I have a V-3000 and I do really like it and it has more than enough power to run 1 tool at a time. The only down side I see is that I also run an excalibur overarm blade guard...so a little more CFM would be welcome... but it catches most of it.

[Rod Sheridan]

More money spent for no increase in performance due to duct design.

As well you need air flow to have the cyclone separate the dust out of the airstream. If you have to open gates on machines you're not using you're wasting electricity.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent Chasson]

More money spent for no increase in performance due to duct design.

I'm still trying to figure out the best size for my shop and have pretty much decided to over-size based on the thought that I will get better performance in the short run and can keep the collector if I increase the size of my shop later. From all the reading I've done, even if I keep 4" ports on my machines with 4" drops, I will pull more air with a bigger impeller. Don't you just plug the static pressure into the fan curve to get the CFM at the machine? If so, you get better performance with a DC that pulls more air at a higher SP. What am I missing?


As well you need air flow to have the cyclone separate the dust out of the airstream. If you have to open gates on machines you're not using you're wasting electricity.

Regards, Rod.

I don't get that either. If what I said above is true, then you will have more flow to the cyclone with the same # of gates open. Not arguing. I'm just trying to figure this out and there seems to be some contradictory opinions.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Kent, you run into increasing frictional losses as the airspeed increases, which is what happens when you exceed standard speeds in standard ductwork.

Yes you will have more airflow with a larger cyclone, however it's not linear, you pay more and more for diminishing returns.

You are far better off optimising your cyclone selection for your airflow requirements.

Of course if you are expecting to move or drastically alter your shop then you would know in advance that you want to oversize your cyclone for your planned changes.

The largest user of air in my shop is my tablesaw with a cabinet port and an over blade port. Allowing 500 to 600 CFM for the cabinet and 200 to 300 for the blade port gives you an airflow of 700 to 900 CFM.

At those flow rates the collector does pick up almost all the material, and the manufacturer of the saw provides certification to meet current standards. Increasing the airflow past that point provides diminishing returns, rapidly.

The best performance/cost balance comes from optimising the fan/ductwork/machine requirements.

Regards, Rod.

[Burt Alcantara]

I have the ClearVue CV1400 which is the smaller cyclone (same 5hp motor). I have about 35-40' of ducting with 5 ports. Forgetful me will sometimes have the cyclone running with all ports open and I don't even notice. I do this at the end of the day to clear out lingering dust. Come back to the shop and forget to close the ports.

Personally, I think all the specs are BS. Turn the machine on. Does it suck or not? Even with my sloppy setup, it sucks all the machines clean.

[Chris Parks]

It has occurred to me lately that a dust extractor that has more capacity than a single duct to a machine might be a good thing. Dust always is present in the air, we can't escape that so if we had a duct open to the air as a permanent thing plus the operating duct to the cyclone the air would be scrubbed while the machine is on. Yes, I know about filters etc but this method would work and is part of the duct installation.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I should have added this: Call Oneida... If you give them a shop drawing, they will size the system to meet your needs... and they can do the duct-work design (free if you are >3HP)!

[Joe Cowan]

I just installed the V2000 and love it. I left one gate valve open yesterday, by mistake, and ran my planer. I could not tell there was less draw and now feel I could run two machines at one time, if needed.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I just installed a V3000 in my shop and have all of my duct work run, though I haven't really had much of a chance to use it yet. I went with the V3000 over the V5000 because I knew that I was using 6" duct the whole way. The V5000 has an 8" inlet. Running the V5000 with 6" ductwork provided less an a 5% improvement over the V3000. The other thing that drove me to the V3000 is that it's about 50% quieter than the V5000 based on the posted noise levels. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for buying tools with more power, but I just didn't see any upside for me to own the V5000 over the V3000. I can tell you that the V3000 is a substantial improvement over the HFDC that it replaces.

[Jamie Buxton]

Yes, you can have a DC that's too big. When I first used my cyclone with my Hammer A3-31 jointer-planer, the jointer howled like a siren. It turned out that the cutter block was modulating the size of the only opening where air was rushing into the system. That, perhaps in conjunction with the corrugations inside the flex, caused a siren-like effect. The neighbors came over to complain. I fixed it by cutting the dust shroud in the jointer to open it up, so the modulation effect is smaller. The A3-31 is the older model, built in 2000 or so. New ones might or might not work this way.

[John Coloccia]

re: can it be too big?

No. If this were the case, you wouldn't be able to have one large cyclone service multiple tools. You would need to have a small cyclone per tool.

Dust collection is expensive, but purchasing dust collection twice is a lot more expensive. As your system gets larger, you options open up. A nice downdraft table comes to mind as something which requires a LOT of airflow that a perfectly sized system for your tool may not handle well. A larger DC can also handle things such as a large hood for a radial arm saw, a large hood for capturing sanding dust off a lathe, etc. My lathe actually just has two wide open 6" ports for capturing sanding dust.

Personally, I think you should reconsider the Clearvue and just rattle can spray the MDF to a color you like, but regardless what you choose, my opinion is that you should buy the best and biggest dust collection you can afford.

[glenn bradley]

Dust collection is expensive, but purchasing dust collection twice is a lot more expensive.

I'll add that not purchasing adequate dust collection can be even more expensive. I now have to wear a respirator even though I have a cyclone, modified bagger and an ambient filter. Buying the right stuff too late has strapped me with sinus issues that cause disabling head and ear aches if I am not overly cautious. Don't go there ;-)

[Ole Anderson]

I, too, am looking to upgrade my dust collection from a Penn State 1 hp 2 bagger. Looking at the 2 hp Oneida unit, the Grizz G0440, the ClearVue and now the 2.5 hp Penn State Tempest. The clearVue just looks too homemade for my wants and I don't feel 5 hp is a very "Green" solution. The Oneida is US built, but pricy while the Grizz has mixed reviews and the filter is way too small if you read Bills filter sizing criteria. I am leaning toward the 2.5 hp Tempest as it has about 9 inches of suction at the 800 cfm needed for a TS and it has the double filter with 452 sf of surface area.

Also the PSI has a non-sparking aluminum impeller, and the 2.5 hp motor seems very efficient at 13 amps vs the 14 amp 2 hp Grizz and seems even more efficient than the 11.5 amps for the 2 hp Oneida. Although I see my Baldor 3 hp on my Kazoo cut off saw only draws 12 amps.

But I have to say my head is spinning with all of the info I have read over the last 3 days.

Brian, that being said, with a shop as big as yours but only running one tool at a time, a good 2-3 hp collector should be fine, IMHO.

http://www.pennstateind.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=TEMP1425S&Store_Code=PSI&showreviews=1#prodtabs

[Jim O'Dell]

Ole, I can tell you from 5 years experience with the Clear Vue that it works. The wood parts have been absolutely no problem, and the PTEG material is tough as nails. Have you had a chance to see your finalists in action at a woodworker's shop? I'd ask here and other forums who in your area has each of these, and try to see them in person. The V series Oneida may be the toughest one as they are fairly new on the market. Maybe write each of the companies and see if they can put a customer in touch with you in your area that has one of their products. Is steel better than wood? In some situations yes, others no. The MDF parts of the CV only hold the motor and PTEG pieces in place. They aren't in the line of fire of the dust and wood chips. Just some information for you to ponder. Jim.

[Brian Cosgrove]

Thanks to all who have provided helpful information to this point so far. Aaron, I too noted that the V5000 has an 8" inlet and was thinking the same thing, that the V5000 numbers are with 8" pipe and choking it down to 6" will only marginally increase performance over the V3000.
I just installed a V3000 in my shop and have all of my duct work run, though I haven't really had much of a chance to use it yet. I went with the V3000 over the V5000 because I knew that I was using 6" duct the whole way. The V5000 has an 8" inlet. Running the V5000 with 6" ductwork provided less an a 5% improvement over the V3000. The other thing that drove me to the V3000 is that it's about 50% quieter than the V5000 based on the posted noise levels. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for buying tools with more power, but I just didn't see any upside for me to own the V5000 over the V3000. I can tell you that the V3000 is a substantial improvement over the HFDC that it replaces.

[Brian Cosgrove]

Jim, I may take the advice on seeing them each in person before buying. That might help.
Ole, I can tell you from 5 years experience with the Clear Vue that it works. The wood parts have been absolutely no problem, and the PTEG material is tough as nails. Have you had a chance to see your finalists in action at a woodworker's shop? I'd ask here and other forums who in your area has each of these, and try to see them in person. The V series Oneida may be the toughest one as they are fairly new on the market. Maybe write each of the companies and see if they can put a customer in touch with you in your area that has one of their products. Is steel better than wood? In some situations yes, others no. The MDF parts of the CV only hold the motor and PTEG pieces in place. They aren't in the line of fire of the dust and wood chips. Just some information for you to ponder. Jim.

[Jim O'Dell]

Oh, and my thoughts on the cyclones that can handle and are set up for the 8" input...would only be needed if you are running 2 machines that need 6" pipe at the same time. For a one man shop, would just be a waste of money, unless it's a BIG shop, then a ducting plan that would make use of the extra capability could be implemented. Jim.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Chris mentioned air scrubbing with the cyclone. I have a bigger dust gorilla, designed for an expected shop upgrade someday. I leave one port open besides the machine in use, and it does do a superb job of air scrubbing. It does cost more money to run a bigger machine, and mine is loud. Are you planning any duct run increases, like a bigger shop might bring? May want to consider.

[Ole Anderson]

Yes, running a dust collector as an air scrubber is very inefficient. A 1/5 to 1/3 hp ambient air cleaner will clean nearly the same volume that a 2 hp dust collector will.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Yes, running a dust collector as an air scrubber is very inefficient. A 1/5 to 1/3 hp ambient air cleaner will clean nearly the same volume that a 2 hp dust collector will.

Sure, but if you already have the 2100 cfm cyclone going, it may as well scrub. Starting a dedicated scrubber in my case would be silly. The bigger cyclone was called for if I get a wide belt sander someday, especially with the longer duct runs like what I'm expecting in the new shop.

Why you'd actually need a scrubber if your dc system is set up right is another animal for another thread I suppose.

I just brought it up to bring up the point of maybe needing more dust collector at some point in the future. Would stink to have to upgrade the cyclone, and possibly all the duct...

[Bernie Kopfer]

I have a V3000 with 6" pvc ducting and 4'' drops to the machines. Works great!!!! And the pvc is cheap and so easy to work with too. And the white looks nicer in my wife's opinion! The GREATEST and BEST thing I did was to place wired gates at every drop. I just have to reach out pull the gate open and the DC turns on and runs until I close the gate. I can run multiple machines but there is a drop in suction but not enough to be of concern. (Rarely do I run more than one) I have a Fox dust collection table ~ 20''x 45'' and that is where I could use more airflow. When sanding right on the table it is fine, but if more than 15'' above the air flow is weak. Cut a 3x3 window in the metal top of the collection bin and cover with a magnetic vinyl sheet (those advertising magnets) and then you can readily check the fill level in the bin. The Onieda is a great unit and if it where quieter it would probably be the best out there for the money.

[Jim Andrew]

My shop is bigger, 26 x 50, and the largest tool I have is a 18" woodmaster, which throws a lot of chips. My 2 hp Woodsucker handles my shop just fine. I can accidently leave a gate open and the dc takes care of everything except the planer just fine with 2 gates open. The planer requires just 1 gate, if it is going to get all the chips. Biggest problem I have is running the drum over when planing. Can fill the 50 gallon drum in about 20 minutes.Think your getting a lot of work done and oops!

[Adam Jackson]

Ive been looking at cyclones for 4 months and after going through the pros and cons of all the mentioned cyclones I chose the clearvue. I wanted the best possible fine dust collection and separation at the cyclone and from reading all the posts and reviews I think the clearvue cone design is superior to the rest.

[Scott Barrera]

I'm just finishing up an install of the v-3000. I haven't got to use it yet but I couldn't be more impressed with it so far. I will follow JP after a few more nights using it. I'm going through a total of 40 feet of 6" pipe to get to the farthest machine and the velocity is still incredible.

[Nick Lazz]

+1 on the ClearVue. It has been my best purchase to date as far as tools go. Don't let the mdf and plastic fool you. It is a high quality machine, will perform as well or better than any on the market and it was a less expensive option for me.
I had the same reservations at first, but I took a leap. Glad I did.

Good luck in your selection. I'm sure, whatever you pick will really suck! :D

Nick

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm confused as to what the differences are between the V series dust collectors and the Super Gorilla. Is the V series a budget version of the Super Dust Gorillas?