Worst dovetail ever!

[Mark Baldwin III]

I hereby submit my entry for the worst dovetail ever. I sharpened up all of my chisels last week, and wanted to get to know my new dovetail saw. Grabbed a piece of random soft wood...and YUK! This is only like #6 that I've tried, but it's pretty bad. Makes the one in the second pic look pretty professional. This stuff just did not want to cut at all. My chisels compressed it more than cut it. They go through maple and oak like butter though.

[James Phillips]

Soft woods do not pare or chop as nicely as hard woods. Pine is the worst closely followed by poplar

[jamie shard]

Heh, my worst ever was my third or fourth where I tried to make a 2 minute dovetail... and managed to cut the tail with the wide part and thin part reversed. Don't ask me how I managed that one. :D

[Jim Koepke]

Soft woods do not pare or chop as nicely as hard woods. Pine is the worst closely followed by poplar

I was going to say some of my dovetails have been worse until this explanation was posted.

One thing about using a lot of softwoods is they will make one get their chisels real sharp to chop and pare dovetails. It took me a while to learn about chopping a little away from the line and not to go for big bites.

jtk

[Rick Erickson]

Contrary to popular belief it IS NOT easy to cut a nice DT joint in a soft wood (pine, basswood, etc.). You do have a little more room for error (keeping things a bit fat) but as you have found it is very difficult to get clean cuts and nice lines. Your tools MUST be super sharp. Stick with the medium density woods (poplar, walnut, etc.) to practice on. You will be a lot more satisfied in the end.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I had a feeling that this stuff wouldn't chisel well. I can't remember what I got it for. I'll have to pick up some more oak to work on this week. Most of the oak I find is a PITA, but it's loads better than what I played with today.

[Jim Barrett]

You might want to change the bevel on you chisels down to about 20 degrees. I find that helps with dt's in softwood...

Jim

[Rick Erickson]

Ouch! That is the other extreme. Grab some poplar at the box store and use that. Jim also has a great idea. Lowering your chisel angle really helps in soft wood. I keep two chisels at 17-degrees just for softer woods.


I had a feeling that this stuff wouldn't chisel well. I can't remember what I got it for. I'll have to pick up some more oak to work on this week. Most of the oak I find is a PITA, but it's loads better than what I played with today.

[Joe McMahon]

Pretty? No! Would it work? YES! Although it isn't pretty, the others have pretty well summarized the reason why- softwood. Nonetheless, it is a good attempt, and in a pinch it would do the job it was intended for. For looks it gets a C-, for function it gets an A+.

[Tony Shea]

Softwoods are def a bit more difficult to use cutting tools on. But knowing that one is going to be working on softwoods should change the way you aproach the work, especially after leaving your sharpening stones. Sharp isn't sharp enough for pine, aim for scary, hair jumps off your arm sharp! My first peices of furniture were made with pine, which dings so easily, therefore my first show dovetails were in pine. They were a chore to get very tight but tought me a lot about sharp chisels. Like has been pointed out pine DT's can be left a tiny bit fat and will press together well.

[Rob Young]

Well, everybody else has said it too. Sharp and slightly lower angle for the soft stuff. I've had reasonably good luck with even the #2 common mystery-pine at my local BORG when I sharpen the chisels well. Didn't bother lower the angle below 25 degrees but there was a lot of going back to hone. Also found that sawing out waste was more efficient in the soft stuff.

Enjoy and remember that not all DT joints need to show. Think molding planes and hollows & rounds! :)

[harry strasil]

The stuff the local yards sells is hemlock/fir I think and it is a real pain to work with. But using it and cutting dovetails in it improves your skills and also your sharpening ability. I keep a strip of leather from a hide I bought many years ago at a wooden shoe factory handy, I strop on the rough side first, then the smooth side with some brown jewelers rouge I get from the jeweler. It makes a big difference when you get to the finish/paring cut to strop a bit.

Keep working with the pine or whatever till you can do a decent job, then when you get to the good woods, its like you have gone to heaven, and you will be rewarded by the ease and pride in your sharpening skills.

I also keep a couple of skewed chisels handy just for paring and finishing, also try wetting the final thin cut with mineral spirits.

jr. who uses mostly salvage material of sometimes unknown origin.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'm going to attempt my first dovetails tonight or tomorrow, so take heart. Soon another will post worst dovetails than you :)

[Mark Baldwin III]

I used this wood just as a practice piece, and I was going to say that I had no intention of using it again. But now that I've thought about it, I think I'm going to take it as a challenge to learn how to do a decent dovetail in crappy soft wood. I still need to go and get some good stuff to practice with though. I'm cooking and working on bikes this evening...so maybe tomorrow.

[Jeff Wittrock]

What everyone else already said about using pine. The worst wood for me to make dovetails is southern yellow pine. It has such a different density as you go from the light color to the dark color summer growth. You start pushing through the soft light wood which likes to just compact and tear if the chisel isn't very sharp, then you run into the dense dark rings which are like rock in comparison.

Some of the worst dovetails I ever made were while making a tool chest with 14 drawers. The first 8 or 9 were pretty good, then they went down hill as I got tired of cutting dovetails.

[Jim Barrett]

Mark..how are you laying out your dovetails? I have found dividers to be the easiest way to lay out the spacing....once you learn it is such a piece of cake!

Jim

[Mark Baldwin III]

I lay them out by the center lines of the pins. First you mark the center of the end pins, then lay a ruler diagonally across until you get a number that can be easily divided. Then I use a little 1:7 template that I made. The base lines are done with a marking gauge...full width on the inside of the joint, then only inside the waste on the outside of the joint. It is the method that Mr. Kingshott explains in his dovetail video. If that's unclear, I could take some pictures of the layout process. It isn't very difficult.

[Jim Barrett]

Mark,
I use the Cosman method of laying out my pins using a pair of dividers. I believe he learned this from Alan Peters. It is so easy to do once you learn and it takes me less than 1 minute to layout and mark my lines on a board. Rob sometimes checks out these threads and maybe he'll give you the quick "skinny" on how to layout the tails using dividers. If you can take a look at Rob's dt video(s). I think they are the best out there for cutting dt's. Meanwhile check out this video on Rob cutting through dt's in about 3 1/2 minutes.
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Rob+Cosmans+312+Minute+Dovetail+Video.aspx

Jim

[Eric Brown]

It's not the worst!
The worst one is the one that wasn't done because the craftsman was afraid to try.
The first one is great because now you have established what you can do and it tells you
how you need to improve. Congratulations on the beginning of a new journey.
Remember, even the greats were always striving to improve and were rarely entirely satisfied.

Enjoy. Eric

[Pam Niedermayer]

I lay them out by the center lines of the pins. First you mark the center of the end pins, then lay a ruler diagonally across until you get a number that can be easily divided. Then I use a little 1:7 template that I made. The base lines are done with a marking gauge...full width on the inside of the joint, then only inside the waste on the outside of the joint. It is the method that Mr. Kingshott explains in his dovetail video. If that's unclear, I could take some pictures of the layout process. It isn't very difficult.

I just eyeball the placement of the first side, usually the tails, then mark the second side from the first. It's very simple. Except when I have lots of small dovetails, say 5 or 6 per side, then I also follow Kingshott's ruler method.

Pam

[Mark Baldwin III]

Just watched the cosman 3 minute video. Looked like a blur to me. I may check more of his stuff out later. The first method I watched was Jim Kingshott...so that's the one I've been playing with. I also like Tom McDonald's technique. In a few of his pod casts he shows some pretty neat techniques. I like his paring blocks for guiding the chisels. Neither of these methods are especially fast, but I'm not in this for speed. Tinkering with woodworking is my slow down time. I believe that Tommy-Mac uses dividers for his layout. I've been meaning to go back and watch his DT stuff again and take some notes.

[Jim Barrett]

Cosman's 3 minute video is just to show how fast you (him) can cut a dt...take a look here which is a better representation of Rob's video.
http://www.robcosman.com/video/dovetail.wmv

[Mark Baldwin III]

Thanks, Jim. I'll have to take some notes on that this evening. Having multiple techniques to watch and learn from is always helpful.

[Don Dorn]

I used this wood just as a practice piece, and I was going to say that I had no intention of using it again. But now that I've thought about it, I think I'm going to take it as a challenge to learn how to do a decent dovetail in crappy soft wood. I still need to go and get some good stuff to practice with though. I'm cooking and working on bikes this evening...so maybe tomorrow.

I do many dovetails in pine - the advise is right in that it brings challenges and the sharper the chisel, the better. The upside is that it sands easily and makes it appear your work was flawless, even though you know it wasn't.

[Tom Vanzant]

If you think pine is hard to DT, try cypress.

[Rob Young]

Something I forgot to mention about the SPF I've been playing with from the BORG.

I've found two things that really seem to improve the situation.

First, pick through the bunker with the widest boards. You can generally find the best boards with the most rift and quarter sawn material. I pick out a few 8' ones, 12" wide and take them home. Then I rip out the pith and glue the remainder back to get some decent sized pieces of clear material. Also, cross cut to avoid the worst knots.

Second, after cross cutting, ripping and gluing I sticker the boards for a while. Ideally I'd wait a year before playing with them just to be sure they are dry. Pine (spruce and fir) all get better with a little age. However I've found that even just waiting a few months made a difference.

So, once I've primed the system with a few boards I have stuff to play with and experiment that is relatively decent. Cheap too.

My local BORG's selection of SPF seems pretty decent. I just varies from store to store across the country. Next quarter, the stuff could be just crap. You never know.

[Mark Baldwin III]

This is tonight's attempt. It is tons better! I used oak this time. I cracked a bit on the left side. Better lighting is a must, but that will be taken care of soon. I also need to get those chisels sharper! Each cut with that LV dovetail saw just makes me more and more impressed.

[Michael MacDonald]

I got you beat... been practicing in pine and poplar for a few months... need to move to different wood perhaps to reduce my apparent natural disadvantage... whatever it is.

[gary Zimmel]

Looks like you are well on your way Mark... Won't be long and you will be cranking these out.

[Mark Baldwin III]

Thanks, Gary. One thing that has really helped is joining this forum and seeing all the stuff you guys do. The information is boundless and helps inspire. Another thing that helps is having a good set of saws. My pops got me all 3 of the LV dovetail saws and the pair of carcass saws last week for Christmas. I had a Japanese style saw, but never liked the feel of it. The western style saw works much better for me. Spent some time this evening just practicing cutting straight lines.