Does This Look Safe To You?

[Richard McComas]

Turning with a shaper.

http://www.youtube.com/v/sf3gaXHS_7s&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3

[Mark Bolton]

This was posted on woodweb a bit back. Chilling to say the least. Just doing template work with a rub collar is scary enough, that one looked Hobert precarious especially with the cutter at the tip of the spindle and it raised up so high.

Yeeek,
Mark

[Steve knight]

easier to use a router for the job.

[Jim Sebring]

Prolly should be using a face shield - and full body armor! Almost as quick as using a roughing gouge.

[Rick Fisher]

As a hobby woodworker.. there are some things I don't need to do.. That is one of them..

[Bill Huber]

I don't see it as being that bad, he is not even close to the cutter and is behind plywood at each end.

I guess if we had a video of a guy taking a long hunk of metal and sticking it into a spinning hunk of wood ,,,,,,, oh, wait there are a lot of them out there, its called a wood lathe.

[John Coloccia]

Seems OK to me but that's an awful lot of time and effort spent trying to be clever when you can just buy a lathe.

[george wilson]

There are industrial machines that work exactly the same way. I have been in furniture factories where they were used in the 60's.

however,they were surrounded by thick steel guards which all had some hefty looking DENTS in them!!!! Plus,they WEREN"T made out of plywood(the part that keeps the wood from becoming airborne.)

[Karl Brogger]

Looks safe enough to me. It was a smooth process on the video.

Actually looks way safer than having to do arched raised panels by hand.

[Stephen Cherry]

This was posted on woodweb a bit back. Chilling to say the least. Just doing template work with a rub collar is scary enough, that one looked Hobert precarious especially with the cutter at the tip of the spindle and it raised up so high.

Yeeek,
Mark

Mark- why are you concerned about the cutter at the end of the spindle- because the cutter is less stable at the end of the spindle or just that it is hanging so far out in the breeze.

It reminds me of my brief time refueling airplanes- while I fueled, the propellers were spinning, and I thought how easily I could be sliced up like bacon, or maybe just turned into goo.

[Donny Lawson]

I would like to see plans for the setup he has. Looks like it could be made into a nice lathe with a little modification.
Donny

[Jay Rasmussen]

Looks like a fairly clean set-up. I would think it’s a production run of spindles.
Don’t know what other parts he ran with that arrangement but I would have tried to get the cutter closer to the table.

[Don Alexander]

thats alot of exposed spinning cutter with no guards of any kind pushing his contraption with no guide rail or stop in sight and next to nothing for protecting him from flying shrapnel should anything at all go awry i'm not overly impressed with OSHA normally but in this case they would have a legitimate complaint can you imagine what would happen if he slipped even a little especially right at the end of the cutting pass and that shaper cutter clipped the metal drive spindle? not a wise method though creative it looks to me like he stopped a bit short on the design and application of it

[Mark Bolton]

Mark- why are you concerned about the cutter at the end of the spindle- because the cutter is less stable at the end of the spindle or just that it is hanging so far out in the breeze.

I would be more worried about the length of the "lever" I something were to catch or kick. Its not that the work is being done at the tip of the spindle per say. We do that all the time when you have several profiles stacked and are working with the highest in the stack.

I would have felt a little more comfy with the work happening closer to the table but that's just me. I don't think there us any way you could approach the speed and consistency he like gets with a conventional lathe even with a duplicator. Like others mentioned a production run of items that could be made this way it would be hard to beat the speed but the apparatus would need a bit of tweaking to be used in my shop. Then, as was stated on woodweb, it would be an OSHA field day.

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

can you imagine what would happen if he slipped even a little especially right at the end of the cutting pass and that shaper cutter clipped the metal drive spindle?


The simple answer is don't slip. As far as digging into his spindles, watch the video again. There's blocks on his template to avoid just that. Unless he foolishly tips the whole mess into the cutter it'd be fine, (which looks like you'd have to try to do so). Definitely not an idiot proof method by any means but looks like it works okay. He's not putting much effort into anything either, probably a "safe enough" procedure so long as you don't turn stupid.

I would think that shrapnel from the cut would be an issue as well, but he's wearing short sleeves, and just glasses, and not really removing that much material. People tend to cover things up if its uncomfortable. Heck, when I use a lathe I'm usually sporting ski goggles just to keep my eyes clear.





Look at the equipment in there! There is some serious stuff! My guess is not this companies first rodeo. That shaper alone is a tank.

[Tom Rick]

Not idiot proof but the guy looks like a pro who is in the middle of a large run of those parts by the way he is moving.
He has the feed rate dialed down and the set up probably cuts fairly smooth w/no tendency to grab.
See all those extra profiles on the lower right? The guy is doing a ton of work on this set up.
Looks fine to me- just don't get your hand near those whirling bits of carbide- what else is new in woodworking...?

Anyone have a U-tube account?
Ask him how it is going..

[Stephen Cherry]

I would be more worried about the length of the "lever" I something were to catch or kick. Its not that the work is being done at the tip of the spindle per say. We do that all the time when you have several profiles stacked and are working with the highest in the stack.

I would have felt a little more comfy with the work happening closer to the table but that's just me. I don't think there us any way you could approach the speed and consistency he like gets with a conventional lathe even with a duplicator. Like others mentioned a production run of items that could be made this way it would be hard to beat the speed but the apparatus would need a bit of tweaking to be used in my shop. Then, as was stated on woodweb, it would be an OSHA field day.

Mark

Thanks- It's always great to hear from people who use these machines all the time. I'm just getting into shaping and it seems like each setup requires a little head scratching. It seems like the fundamental question is "Have I done enough to cover up the cutter?" In this case, the easy answer is that an hour of time could have covered most of the cutterhead with some sort of hood. The additional plus would be getting the dust collector around the cutter.

[Jonathan Spool]

Watch the video again and you will notice a plywood guard that has been moved out of the way for the video. Looks like the guard would protect the rear of the spinning cutters.

[Peter Quinn]

Looks like a reasonable set up to me. He has a good lead in, he has a good stopping point. its a stout machine, and the jig looks substantial enough to handle the job. Its not one of those "Euro nanny state" safe set ups where there is no possibility of human contact with a spinning cutter, or minimal chance. But it doesn't have that "keep watching because he is sure to loos an arm" look either. Good operator, no issues. Notice he is not spinning knotty hickory there. I'd guess stock selection is probably on his mind there too for quality and success. Yes sir, I like it! Its a really cool extension of the pattern shaping concept.

[Chip Lindley]

Quite a contraption to cut a wood cylinder! I suppose if one had 10s or 100s of these big dowels to cut out, this would be an accurate way to do it WITHOUT the aid of a wood lathe.

It appears the spindle is a stout 1-1/4", but chatter would be a concern with the cutterhead mounted at the extreme end of the shaft. If that cutterhead is aluminum, much the better. I don't see any dust collection! A MUST to keep the shop from filling with dust and chips!

In true woodworking tradition, this jig shows that an operation generally delegated to one particular machine can be accomplished in other ways. Kinda like cutting cove moulding on a tablesaw instead of a shaper/moulder!

[Don Alexander]

i missed the lead in block and the stop on the first look and he is not getting near the cutter with any part of his body

i'd definitely want a hood/guard around that cutter both for safety and for dust collection but maybe thats what the wood assembly on the edge of the table is for it appears that the chips/dust from his demo are being sucked into that positioned where it is

[Peter Quinn]

. I don't see any dust collection! A MUST to keep the shop from filling up with ships.


Take another look at the back left side of that table Chip. There appears to me to be a dust hood clamped to the table. When viewing I was thinking this should be making a lot more chips, where are they going? Well, they are going into the dust collector mainly.

[J.R. Rutter]

Climb feeding that setup would give cleaner cuts.

See: Now it seems safer!

I guess I look at operations like this from an employer perspective. I can see how he has made a very creative and controlled setup, but I have also seen people manage to loose fingertips on fully-guarded, power-fed machine setups where, literally, there was only room to feed a 1" piece of wood (or a finger, if you tried) anywhere near the cutter. It is one thing for an owner/jig creator to use a setup like this, and quite another for someone who is daydreaming about their date last night or muddle headed from a big lunch.

[Mark Bolton]

Thanks- It's always great to hear from people who use these machines all the time. I'm just getting into shaping and it seems like each setup requires a little head scratching. It seems like the fundamental question is "Have I done enough to cover up the cutter?" In this case, the easy answer is that an hour of time could have covered most of the cutterhead with some sort of hood. The additional plus would be getting the dust collector around the cutter.

Stephen,
Well, while this is my profession I consider myself far from pro at much of this stuff, people like Peter Quinn, Karl, JR, and many others are far more knowledgeable and are in the work daily.

I would agree with you fully on the shaper setup, its something you need to pay very close attention to and take your time, double, triple, and quadruple check things. The shaper is a tool that runs daily in our shop and for our work is by far the most valuable tool in our shop hands down. But thats our work. Even having setup hundreds of times I still find myself walking through and OCD'esk checklist constantly and often times have a little jitter when fire up and then feed the first piece. I don't mean to sound like I over do it but its a tool that commands a tremendous amount of respect but man oh man, when you give it that respect, it makes life soooo easy. That said, I still give a shudder on regular occasion when I look at a 12" spinning TS blade sticking 3" out of the table as I am ready to feed.

We may change setups on the shaper dozens of times in a day and it becomes easy to forget to tighten one handle on the feeder, or one of the fence hold downs, and so on. In my opinion its a lot of common sense and routine building but being careful not to become comfortable in routine if that makes sense. Same as everything, the guy who has thrown 6000 pieces through the TS goes to whip 6001 and leaves a finger on the table.

You can find videos all over the web that will make you question how you would have setup that operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziGLkNyuf4g

That one never made me feel too comfortable as I never like to have my hands in a position where if the work piece disappeared, where would my hands go. We have run profiles very similar to that with curved fronts and straight backs and I cant say I would ever feel comfortable having my hands over the cutter like that.

Mark

[Peter Quinn]

Climb feeding that setup would give cleaner cuts.

See: Now it seems safer!

I guess I look at operations like this from an employer perspective. I can see how he has made a very creative and controlled setup, but I have also seen people manage to loose fingertips on fully-guarded, power-fed machine setups where, literally, there was only room to feed a 1" piece of wood (or a finger, if you tried) anywhere near the cutter. It is one thing for an owner/jig creator to use a setup like this, and quite another for someone who is daydreaming about their date last night or muddle headed from a big lunch.


LOL presently. We have these signs all over at work, big bright signs required of the owner by the insurance company that get dusted off when the adjuster comes around for an inspection. They say things like "Table Saw Blade must be lowered when not in use", "Trained operators only on this machine", "Exercise Caution, use safety mechanisms", "Wear Ear and Eye protection", etc. Mostly they get ignored. Perhaps they should print up something more direct like "If you are a muddle headed over eater, please refrain from using this machine!". or even "10" Minimum safe distance between head and rear must be observed at all times". Nah, those would get ignored too. The muddleheads don't read signs regardless of print color or content. If that large sharp cutter on the end of a 7" spindle with no guards spinning at 7K rpm's hasn't got your attention, no stupid sign is going to help, but it does let the adjuster say "We told you so..."

We have a lot of guitar players on staff for some reason. Like 65% of the guys play an instrument? Seems guys that play instruments are for some reason more careful about where they put their hands and double checking the set ups? I have no real data to back that up, but it might make an interesting study? Perhaps requiring all mechanics to take 20 years of guitar lessons would improve machine safety statistics? hat said I'd be in no big hurry to volunteer to run those spindles that way, but I'd love to watch somebody else do it.

[Chip Lindley]

Take another look at the back left side of that table Chip. There appears to me to be a dust hood clamped to the table. When viewing I was thinking this should be making a lot more chips, where are they going? Well, they are going into the dust collector mainly.

Thanks Peter. I take your word for it. I saw no hood anywhere near the spindle; only lots of bare table!

HughesNet penaltys for using excessive bandwidth caused me to start the video and shut it down as soon as I saw the setup. I am limited to 200mb usage per 24 hours, with a $5 reset fee to resume service. YouTube (or any video) hogs lots of bandwidth! I may never get cable modem where I live. It really SUX!

[Tony Bilello]

This is one of the safest set-ups I have seen in a long while. As for speed and efficiency, A heck of a lot fasre than a lathe with much better duplication that can be done by hand.

[Mark Bolton]

I may never get cable modem where I live. It really SUX!

Chip, I feel your pain. We live in a very remote location (off grid) and had hughes net for about 8 years (even back when we had it through earthlink which was totally unlimited). After we had to switch to hughesnet it really sucked with their FAP. It wasnt long until we made the decision to just do our internet work at the shop (no good if you shop is at home).

Mark

[Karl Brogger]

Okay. What size is that spindle?

It sure looks big for 1-1/4" I know there's bigger stuff out there but I haven't encountered it anywhere I've worked.

[Karl Brogger]

............ but I have also seen people manage to loose fingertips on fully-guarded, power-fed machine setups where, literally, there was only room to feed a 1" piece of wood (or a finger, if you tried) anywhere near the cutter.

No joke. A place I worked a kid removed a digit on a Voorwood moulder. A piece of equipment that I would've said the only way you could get hurt was if you stubbed your toe on the corner, but he got it caught in the feed conveyor underneath a door that was being edged and popped it like a zit.

Never underestimate the dumb.

[Mark Bolton]

Okay. What size is that spindle?

It sure looks big for 1-1/4" I know there's bigger stuff out there but I haven't encountered it anywhere I've worked.

that doesnt look much bigger than our 1 1/4" with spacers on it.
Mark

[Karl Brogger]

that doesnt look much bigger than our 1 1/4" with spacers on it.
Mark
\

You're probably right, its the spacers that make it look so thick.

[Mark Bolton]

its the spacers that make it look so thick.

zoikes!!!!!!

[Matthew Sherman]

It doesn't look that dangerous to me because the jig has a guide block at the bottom. If you want to see scary watch the Wood Wright Shop when he visits some place using really old machines. Blade with no guards and your hands are inches away while belts are spinning feet away that could suck you in.

[Mark Bolton]

that doesnt look much bigger than our 1 1/4" with spacers on it. Espe
Mark

Oh lord, now this is getting ridiculous,....
Mark

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I will remind everyone we are unable to control the age of those who view the threads here. Please leave the sophomoric locker room humor at home. It's not appropriate for this website.

Thank you.

[raul segura]

Ive been working in a very large factory 23yrs Ive seen many accidents, mostly because of not wanting to stop production or valid safety issue. People due silly things that cause a machine to get so over guarded and locked out it is hard to run it with out being in the next room. I find more often than not it is the safe looking machines that people loose parts in because of confidence and building up speed to meet the demands that are asked by from up stares. You have to keep the customer happy !! Also if there is a way for some one to stick there finger where it shouldn't be,, they will. I love the set up but would not want a quota nagging at my every breath while pushing sticks into a fine mulching machine like that. I would definitely have some bullet proof plastic between me and the path of the missile. Otherwise i want one please.

[Steve Ryan]

It may look cool but is totally unsafe. There is no allowance for what can happed if the workpiece fractures or gets loose. It could happen from an internal defect in the material or just plain operator error. The workpiece should be as close to the bottom as possible. The jig is top heavy and there is more leverage to spread the fixture apart with it being so high up. What can happen if the workpiece fractures? Nasty kickback would blow the end of the jig apart, and just may launch the iron pillow blocks into the cutter. Red hot major sparks into the dust collector with the resulting explosion or fire. At that point one of the steel knives in the cutterhead will get busted off. Cutter is at the end of the spindle and that size cutter usually runs at 6-7000 RPM. The resulting imbalance will make even the heaviest shaper dance around.

[Jerome Stanek]

It may look cool but is totally unsafe. There is no allowance for what can happed if the workpiece fractures or gets loose. It could happen from an internal defect in the material or just plain operator error. The workpiece should be as close to the bottom as possible. The jig is top heavy and there is more leverage to spread the fixture apart with it being so high up. What can happen if the workpiece fractures? Nasty kickback would blow the end of the jig apart, and just may launch the iron pillow blocks into the cutter. Red hot major sparks into the dust collector with the resulting explosion or fire. At that point one of the steel knives in the cutterhead will get busted off. Cutter is at the end of the spindle and that size cutter usually runs at 6-7000 RPM. The resulting imbalance will make even the heaviest shaper dance around.

Yeah just a safe as driving a steel bar by hand into a square block spinning at high speed.