Issue with MM24 (was: Let's rip MiniMax for a while)

[Robert Reece]

ok, so a few months ago I picked up a used Minimax MM24 bandsaw. This particular saw was manufactured about 5-6 years ago, so it's fairly new. I had been thinking about buying one and this one came up on craigslist so I went and got it.

So first, let me start with the good things I can say about it:
1. Lots of power. It can drive a blade through anything.

That's about it for the good things.

I'm particularly miffed today though because I recently had Louis Iturra extend a Woodmaster CT blade that I had for my old Jet. He added around 3' to the blade to fit the Minimax. Problem is I gave him a blade length using the manufacturer sticker on the saw - which is wrong! Say what? Anybody else notice this phenomenon with Minimax? Apparently my blade length is 196" instead of the sticker which says 176-180. Fabulous job there by minimax.

The other things I hate about the saw:
1. Table is nowhere near flat. At the front of the table where the blade kerf is, there is a dip of around 0.022" (actually 0.018" on left side of kerf, 0.022" on right side). Manual says there are some bolts underneath that allow you to flatten the table but the table is dead flat between the bolts. Any change of those bolts is not going to fix flatness issues at the edge. The table also drops about 0.010" directly behind the blade.

2. Dust collection is abysmal. There are 3 big holes on the very top of the saw which reign sawdust on me while I'm using the saw. I have a 5 HP cyclone and I am running probably 1000 cfm at the bandsaw. I even made myself some cardboard to wrap the blade so that the majority of air is drawn down and across the blade immediately below that table. That helped, but I still get dust floating down on me. It seems to be coming out of the kerf in the spine where the blade runs.

3. The fence is mediocre at best. Trying to just tap it over is futile because of the way it locks and unlocks from the rail. Once you back off the screw handle, it's a lot more like to pivot on the bar than to actually move.

Based on everything said here, I figured getting a minimax would be the last bandsaw I ever needed. I guess if I had it to do again I'd go for the Agazzani which I was eyeing for a while. Oh well, life goes on, even though I haven't yet achieved bandsaw nirvana.

[Stephen Cherry]

If it makes you feel any better, the agazzani fence is no great shakes. Plus, you learned the blade length on a used blade, not a new resaw king.

[Gary Herrmann]

Might not get too many takers here.

You did buy a used bandsaw. 5 or 6 years can be a long time. Are you certain the original owner didn't do anything to the tables? If not, it would be nearly impossible to tell whether it was the previous owner or it came from the factory that way.

[Jeff Duncan]

Not familiar with MiniMax bandsaws in particular, but a couple general thoughts.

First dust collection on bandsaws in general is an afterthought. My dust collection system pulls somewhere over 3k cfm and it doesn't make a dent in the dust generated by my saw. You shouldn't have dust falling on you though, not sure why there would be holes on the top of the saw but you may want to look into closing them off?

Second, fences are also generally afterthoughts on bandsaws. I'd guess because a lot of them likely never get used? Don't know, but the fence on my 20" Delta is OK and gets the job done....but it sure isn't anything fancy.


Third, the blade length thing sounds funny to me. Are you sure about the size of the blade you tried on it? Just because you had a blade altered to fit the saw that's the first place I'd look. But you never know, someone maybe just put the wrong sticker on it at the factory?

Lastly I couldn't tell you whether or not my bandsaw table is flat to within that kind of tolerance. I just wouldn't ever spend the time to check with a bandsaw. What's important is that it cuts well. So unless there was some serious condition it's not a factor for me.

So I guess to sum up, my opinion is that if the saw cuts well you have a good saw. The problems you have I would consider minor. The dust problem can likely be dealt with, and the blade length is an oddity but doesn't affect use from here forward. Some of the things I personally would consider much more important are HP, quality of the guides and ability to set accurately and fairly easily, good strong frame able to tension wide blades. Of course these are just my opinion though, and if you really hate those things about the saw that much you could always keep looking for something better. I know I wouldn't mind upgrading my saw if I had the room and extra cash.

good luck,
JeffD

[Robert Reece]

If it makes you feel any better, the agazzani fence is no great shakes. Plus, you learned the blade length on a used blade, not a new resaw king.

The blade is a Lenox Woodmaster CT and it had not cut much, so it was essentially new. I paid $50 to have it extended to an incorrect length b/c Minimax is unable to properly label the saw. Now I get to choose whether I want this blade to have 3 welds in it, or if I want to throw $50 in the trash, then spend another $50 to replace the blade length we just threw in the trash.

[Robert Reece]

My guess is the previous owner did nothing to the table. The dip is at the very end of the table right where the blade kerf is cut in the table. My guess is a lot of MM bandsaws suffer from this problem as the weight of the cast iron takes over and the table sags. The kerf should have been pinned, but it is not, which seems like a lack of quality to me.

When I first got the saw, the dust was reigning out of the three holes in the top of the saw. Two are for hoisting and one is for the post that supports the upper guides. I put duct tape over them and I still get some dust flying around, but I'd have expected better solutions from a "market leader". I guess I'll have to tape up the kerf in the spine.

Then the blade issue came up today and really miffed me off about this saw. I measured the blade length for the extended blade and Louis did it exactly to my specifications. 178", according the sticker on the saw. I'll be calling Minimax on Monday to ask them about it, but I'm not hopeful of receiving any support since I had called when I first got the saw to ask about the table not being flat and about how these adjustment bolts are supposed to work. The nice lady told me so-and-so wasn't in the shop and would call me back. Riggggggggggght.

I did lie when I said I could only say one good thing about the saw. I really like the tension wheel and how it moves the wheel so much per turn. It makes tensioning and detensioning very nice.

I haven't really had a good opportunity to evaluate how the saw performs. I did resaw some 4" wide stuff, but that is hardly a test of this saw. The cut offs weren't exactly the same thickness on both ends, but that could be the blade I am using. That is why I wanted my Woodmaster CT to be on this saw. Then I'd know for sure, but I guess I have to wait a couple of more weeks to get that answer.

Sorry I'm working so hard on this well respected saw, but I just don't see why this saw commands $5k. Fortunately I got mine used and can turn it back out if I need too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Robert,

The slot for the blade.....is there a hole drilled there?

My MM-16 is drilled and a removeable chained pin is there to prevent the sagging you describe.

My dust collection works well. When I got my machine, it came with plastic plugs to plug the holes you talk about..... There is even an adjustable sleeve under the table to keep the sleeve close to the underside of the table when you tilt it.

The stock fence is as good as any stock fence I've seen. There are some better after market fences but....that really is a matter of personal taste.

I suspect the MM-24 you got may be older than 5 years as mine MM-16 is 4 years old.

It's interesting about the sticker for the blade size as the MM website plainly says it takes 196" blade.

Beyond that ....these saws are really at the lower end of industrial saws....not hobbiest saws and therefore...made to last without all the bells and whistles that most hobbiests would like to see.

[John Thompson]

As for blade lenght.. I would never trust the label on the saw period. A string around the wheels with tension off and raised would have nailed down the puzzle.

1.. Google cast iron and read the properties. Cast iron is rather soft compared to steel and can contain stress which causes movement over time if stress releases. The table could have been dead flat when ground and move afterward. Cast iron is simply not perfect! And... tables are ground in the factory with the "pin in". But exactly how far in was the pin when ground. Try moving the pin in and out and see if you get a better reading on the dips. BTW... after having run around 12,000 linear ft. of re-saw through my BS which has dips as much or more than yours I can tell you it won't matter in reality. You would have to attach plastic explosives to a nat's hinny to blast it through a 0.010 crack. Take a close look at the thickness of a 0.010 blade on a feeler gauge. I seriously doubt you will ever have to waste one inch of wood with those tolerances.

2. Can't help with the dust control. MM inserts a plywood piece under the table to keep the suction directed to the point just under the blade. Call MM tech on how to go about that. As for the dust coming out between the table split for the blade or any other openings... duct tape goes on and comes off easily. I had a Uni-saw that shot saw-dust from 12 various opening around the top of saw once.. duct tape is your friend! haha

3. I have owned BS's since 1974 and demonstrated a few at IWF for manufacturers. I can't remember ever seeing a really good fence that came OEM with the saw. Some are just better than others but have never found one that I couldn't make work which includes a few home-made.

You probably got a decent price on your MM on CL. Consider yourself lucky if you did as I think it will be the last re-saw BS you will ever need. I have a 14" BS for curves and an 18" for re-saw to avoid blade changing. That's a perfect set up IMO as I use both frequently as I am in the shop 5 days a week.

Good luck with that tank...

[Stephen Cherry]

The blade is a Lenox Woodmaster CT and it had not cut much, so it was essentially new. I paid $50 to have it extended to an incorrect length b/c Minimax is unable to properly label the saw. Now I get to choose whether I want this blade to have 3 welds in it, or if I want to throw $50 in the trash, then spend another $50 to replace the blade length we just threw in the trash.

It's not a 14" delta- you need to confirm these things. Cut out what was welded in, weld in a new longer section for a total of two welds. Lesson learnt on the cheap.

YOu should feel pretty happy- you have a saw where you can actually crank up the tension on some pretty good sized wheels. I'm sure it will cut like there's no tomorow when you get the kinks worked out.

[Chuck Wintle]

The other things I hate about the saw:
1. Table is nowhere near flat. At the front of the table where the blade kerf is, there is a dip of around 0.010". Manual says there are some bolts underneath that allow you to flatten the table but the table is dead flat between the bolts. Any change of those bolts is not going to fix flatness issues at the edge. The table also drops about 0.010" directly behind the blade.


0.010" is not very much...maybe the thickness of paper?

[Bruce Page]

I love my MM. The only complaint I had about it was the funky plastic throat plate and I fixed that. My fence was dead on 90° from the table and easy to adjust for drift. I’m not sure how flat my table is, I don’t recall if I even checked it. I don’t know many people that do fine woodworking or joinery right from their BS. In any case, .010 out of flat on a bandsaw table is inconsequential IMO. I don’t know what to say about the blade length. I would take some string and measure a blade that does fit or measure around the wheels at both minimum & maximum adjustments and shoot for somewhere between them, preferably a little on the + side of middle.

Ps., .010 is about the same thickness as 2 1/2 sheets of notebook paper.

[Gary Herrmann]

Aww Bruce, I just remembered that brass insert you made. I have to bribe you to make one for me somehow...

I've got an MM16. 5 years old, I think. I only get the sawdust snowstorm when, like today I forget to turn on the DC. My table is flat and I think the points about the ply insert and the pin is a good point as well. Robert, did you check for those two items? Reminds me that I need to make a backup piece of ply and look at adjusting/getting a new brush for the lower wheel.

[Larry Edgerton]

Really? Thats what you are going to go with? You make a mistake in my opinion and you are going to throw a bunch of ho-ha out there about the manufacturer because you made a mistake?

I have lots of Minimax, and the first repair I had to make was to replace the belts on my slider after 15 years, a switch on one of my shapers, and well, the paint does not look as fresh as it used to. And don't get me going on SCMI! The blades in my planer get dull far too often.

Get over it.....

[Howard Skillington]

If you have put your Starrett straight edge on your bandsaw table and discovered that you can slip your .01" feeler gauge under it at a couple of points, and if that upsets you, then I won't try to talk you out of it. But let's get real here: nobody bandsaws within a hundredth of an inch, and there is no circumstance in which that imperfection in your bandsaw table is going to be significant in the work you do with the tool. I'd suggest worrying about other things.

[Stephen Cherry]

And don't get me going on SCMI! The blades in my planer get dull far too often.

Get over it.....

If you think about it, now is a great time to set up a shop with woodworking equipment. I just bought a SCMI shaper with feeder for about 800 dollars.

Super build quality, for not a lot of money. The machine was very lightly used, but I did need to go through and clean up and lubricate.

That's the cost of saving many thousands of dollars on a machine.

[Paul Symchych]

I may have missed something but what is it you do on your saw where 0.01" makes a difference?

[Chris Fournier]

I for one resaw dog biscuits every Sunday afternoon and the tolerances get pretty tight when the whole pack shows up.

I am pretty fussy but I consider the B-saw to be a primary breakout tool, not a precision tool. Of course I'd like my B-saw to be perfect but I'd worry about the table being square to the blade, blade drift and dust collection before I concerned myself with table flatness. The incorrect blade info on the saw would be frustrating taht first time around.

While not bandsaws, I've owned three MM machines and they've all been a real treat to own and the customer service has been solid. I consider their castings to be superb. Heavy - they have their own foundry.

[Rick Fisher]

I have a 20 year old version of that saw.. The blade size is 176" - 180" .. lol
Mine has a resaw height of about 13" .. I expect that your saw was made the year Centauro increased the resaw height.. and the " old stickers " where installed..

I changed the fence on mine to a Drift Master.. Fantastic Fence.. What an upgrade.

What I like best about this saw its heavy and will cut anything.. The saw was built to be pushed hard.

On the tolerances.. I never checked mine.. Bandsaw is a rough duty machine IMO.

[Dave MacArthur]

Some interesting points about the saw... but IMO a very poor choice of thread title, more calculated to arouse excitement than convey information...

[Robert Reece]

ok, so I changed the title to make it a little less sensationalist. I also went down this morning and remeasured the dip - I had remembered 0.010", but it's actually 0.022". That is pretty good size dip.

I think you guys are discounting the value of a flat table. When I take a piece of wood that is 10" tall and 1.5" wide and run it through to resaw, the 0.022" dip at the leading edge of the table causes the wood to not stand square to the blade. As it approaches the blade, the wood starts to stand up square to the blade, but doesn't quite make it there. Hence the layers I peel off the block are not uniform. So that is a real quality issue to me.

As for the other stuff (fence & dust collection), I'd just expect more from somebody who bills themselves as a "Cadillac" of bandsaws. I have the plywood insert in the bottom and I have a brush on the lower wheel. The saw is setup correctly, it just comes down to fundamental design issues.

Can I put a driftmaster fence on the machine? Sure, but I wouldn't expect to have to upgrade the fence on a saw of this caliber.

Oh well, another tool I'll put in the "expensive, but still not right category".

[ian maybury]

Mmmmm - it's never comfortable when you take a pop at a sacred cow Robert - but it doesn't mean you haven't got a point.

Here's another perspective. From my (European) viewpoint it's very unusual to find an Italian volume manufacturer of engineered products that's genuinely up there (in the best German or Japanese terms) on quality. They tend to focus on the functional basics at the design stage (and often show great flair in coming up with unique and excellent solutions in that regard), but seem to get bored after that. Customer service isn't usually high on their list of 'interesting' activities either.

There's also the problem that big band saws are probably not exactly high margin products for manufacturers. Not (based on my long experience of Italian cars and motorcycles, plus quite a few years managing equipment engineering projects in Italy and buying parts from Italian sources) that I'd expect that to make much difference - the Italian 'attitude', 'way' or industrial culture is probably a much bigger factor.

Inasmuch as you can generalise on this stuff it's always seemed to me quite a lot to do with societal norms - in that they tend to conform to them in organisations (influenced by their place in the pecking order), and don't seem to easily buy into what they probably see as rather abstract concepts like total quality that might require the individual to act outside of this. e.g. if the top dog isn't 100% behind it, then don't expect the organisation to be. God help you if you need assistance, but are not regarded as having 'clout'.

When buying a used band saw recently I looked at a couple of big UK spec Centauros, and while they were very solid boy were they crude - rusty, paint falling off, a wooden block for a lower guide, minimal dust collection etc. They looked very like they were made with the crudest of industrial requirements in mind (and many are crude) - a far cry from the image (and no doubt the broad reality) projected in the USA.

US expectations in terms of quality and service default very much to the other end of the spectrum. My best guess as to what probably goes on is that Minimax USA (and the other importers of Italian kit) screen incoming product very carefully, and may also add various upgrades and cosmetic tweaks. i.e they rely on the strong points of the design, but add the layers of quality, refinement and service needed to make the product acceptable to the US market. (or at least to the largely high end hobby/smaller professional end of it) Importers in markets like ours are much too small to be able to get into that sort of thing, so we tend to get the unvarnished article.


ian

[Chuck Wintle]

Something i was wondering about this non-flat cast iron table is green or non-aged cast iron can warp and twist over time as internal stresses work themselves out. Could this be typical of bandsaw tables?

[Tom Welch]

You purchased a used saw. An industrial saw at that. Did you not check it out before your purchase? And why would you buy a saw with a 0.022" dip in the table, if that bothers you so much? And how is it the manufactures fault, on an apparently very used piece of equipment, sounds like you did not check out your purchase like you should, and are shifting the blame. Man, when buying anything used (with out a warranty) it's a crap shoot. It's your responsibly to check it out before you lay down your hard earned money.

[Rye Crane]

Robert,

I have the same saw you are reporting on. Those four bolts under the table are the adjustment you will need to take the .022 dip out of the table. It's a
royal pain in the butt to adjust these bolts but cast iron is very, very flexible. Just use a square and adjust ONLY ONE bolt at a time. Trust me on this, if
you go about it like me and just start moving things around it can take a few days to work out theproblem and then your knees won't work as well ever again.

Be patient, you will be truly surprised at the amount of adjustment there is on the entire table.

I took my table over to a machine shop where they used the same Blanchard Grind as the OEM and they cleaned it up for me. It was new and the table had
an intransit grove gouged into it by a forklift. They when I got it back on the fun began getting it square to the blade.

The fence the saw comes with is not a woodworking fence. You need to make your own for resawing, make two while you are at it one high and one low. Mine
fit over the OEM fence and during the year I will check it and shim if necessary to make sure it's square to the blade. Your saw is a real workhorse I love mine.

Good luck,
Rye Crane
Pittsburg, CA

[Jim O'Dell]

It's a shame that the blade sticker wasn't correct. Did the person you bought it from say anything about blade length? If the sticker was off, I would have expected that person to say something like, "Oh, by the way, don't follow the blade length on the sticker...it's wrong." Surely in 5 years they purchased a blade for the machine and knew there was a problem. I'd agree that the dip in the table sounds like a non-issue, and correctable at that. Get yourself a new blade for Christmas, scrape the sticker off, make a label on the computer and stick on the inside of the top door for the proper length, spend a day adjusting the dip out of the table (go a little at a time), find some plugs for the holes in the top (holes for lifting the saw IIRC...my little MM E16 also has plastic plugs there to seal off. Maybe get some rubber plugs that you can tighten a bolt to make a squeeze fit in the hole), and enjoy the heck out of it!!! Jim.

[Leigh Betsch]

I think you and the saw should part company. Problem fixed. You will both feel better about it.

[Dave MacArthur]

Robert,
Your situation interested me as I bought a used Agazzani B-20, and found the table to not be flat. I had the same issue as you, where wood approaching the blade vertically as for resaw was being put significantly out of vertical due to table height differences across the slot for blade installation. Anyways, just want you to know that this is not a low-end or Laguna specific thing, even a perfect shape Agazzani can have similar issues. Hoping you get good comments and solutions here, as I'm going to ride along for my own solution ;) Also, thanks for changing the title, now we can all feel like concerned users righteously seeking a deserved solution, rather than an angry mob looking for someone undefended to hang ;) Ahhh, the power of the righteous stance!

Rye's comments above seem to hold great potential, but I'm hoping he will expand on how those bolts are used to straighten the table? I've taken some pics of my Agazzani below, 174448the four bolts I have hold the table to the trunnions at the four corners, and I did see they have adjusting nuts and could be threaded up against the table underside with various pressures, but didn't equate them to adjusting nuts... any info on this would help, I didn't see anything in my B20 manual.<br>174451<br>&nbsp;Also, on the front of the table across the slot is a bar to screw into both sides, it doesn't look like it would do much to keep sides level to each other, looks too thin and flimsy, but I found that the screws holding it to underside of table front were loose, and tightening them did indeed take out most of the table variance.174449174450

[Rye Crane]

Dave,

I couldn't tell from your pictures how the bolts would work on the table. On the MiniMax (Centauro) those four bolts connect the table with it's connection to the
saw frame. You can't really call it a trunnon, although it works like one. It's just a bar that slips into a slot and the four bolts hold it all down. For example I adjusted
one bolt and it twisted the table up about 1/4" at the end. The ductile cast iron tables are very flexable. The trick becomes difficult when you get one side of the table square to the blade and then try to get the other sides square without changing the first. They all work together, it just takes time to dial it in. I recorded
each turn of each bolt and then reset and tried the opposite bolt the same amount noting the changes produced. Soon, it was just a matter of trial and error to
get it right.

Once your table is square to the blade side and back, it's easy to square the home made fence and your ready to cut away.

Sorry I can't be more specific. I'll try to find that area in the manual and post it on this thread.

Rye Crane

[Rye Crane]

Dave,

Here is the link to the manual that shows two of the four bolts that adjust the table.
http://www.minimax-usa.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=48&tmpl=component&format=raw&Itemid=39

I hope this helps explain.

Rye Crane

[Rick Fisher]

Great Point Rye..

I restored my saw, including spending hours on the table.

This is a good photo of the underside of an MM-24 table ..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/SCM%20Bandsaw/P1010221.jpg

[Doug Shepard]

As far as the DC issue goes - blame the original owner for not installing the large grommet discs, not Minimax. They have to leave those holes open in case you need to use them as lifting points but they're supposed to be sealed up after you have the machine set up. I call MM and see if you can get a couple from them.

[Van Huskey]

Yep BUT that still leaves the guide post hole, I plan to attach a piece of capped PVC over mine at some point so it can raise but still not spew dust.