Dovetail question

[Greg Labacz]

I am going to try doing dovetails. My question is how many of you do hand cut vs using a jig and router? I'm leaning to doing hand cut which I know has a learning curve ,but , due to $$$$ I'm staying away from the jigs.

Merry Christmas and a safe New Year

[John Thompson]

Hand cut since 1972 for me personally. Dove-tails become a signature joint when hand cut as you can size and space them as randomly as you wish.

[Don Dorn]

I'm not against jigs - but count me among hand cut. It's both fun and rewarding and doesn't take near as much time to learn as you think. There is also no end to the ability to customize as you wish.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I do bandsaw assisted hand cut. It takes a lot less time then setting up a jig unless you have several joints to do.

[Mike Henderson]

I do bandsaw assisted hand cut. It takes a lot less time then setting up a jig unless you have several joints to do.
I do the same.

Mike

[George Bregar]

Fine Woodworking table saw/bandsaw method for through dovetails.

[frank shic]

i use the frank klausz method and have still yet to use my porter cable omnijig rofl. there's also the more technical rob cosman method but i love the freehanded method that klausz teaches. that reminds me... i gotta get rid of that omnijig one of these days...

[Gary Curtis]

Greg, you will save about $1000 if you learn to cut dovetails by hand. The Leigh Jig, or the WoodRat which I have cost that amount. The WoodRat unlike other jigs does allow you to vary spacing and tail size.

I've been too occupied with other projects to learn the hand method. But I will. On the other hand, my first stab at making machine dovetails was a set of 9 drawers. The speed amazed me. One of the prominent woodworking instruction books answers the question of how to price various joints if you are selling your work. The author suggests that one fully dovetailed drawer should be billed out at 8 hours.

Machines equal speed, if that is your purpose.

[frank shic]

i should also add that learning how to cut dovetails is not nearly as hard as you may think it is. the main prerequisites are: a sturdy vise to hold the boards securely while you cut the joints and the ability to sharpen chisels. you can use almost any saw to cut them: gent's saw, dovetail saw, tenon saw, frame saw (tage frid) and even a hacksaw!

[Greg Labacz]

thanks for your responses. I'm going to try and do hand cut.

[Ryan Hellmer]

Hand cut has its place, but I have the AKEDA jig and love it. For one-off stuff handcutting is probably the best, but when you have a chest of drawers with 8 drawers and a couple night stands to put together cutting 40 sets of joints can become tedious. I love the variability of the AKEDA as well as the quick learning curve and repeatability is great. Sounds like you've made a decision (and a fair one) but for me, I just don't see hand-cutting as a feasible option based on my production requirements and limited time (and I'm just a hobbyist).

Ryan

[Neil Brooks]

IMHO, this one DOES fall rather nicely into the "hand tools or power tools" question.

I've never done hand-cut DTs. I bang them out rather adequately, using my P-C 4212 jig.

But ... I would think that the hand-cut method is far more satisfying, allows far more "art" in the execution (you CAN do variable spacing on many of the jigs), gives you a feeling of accomplishment that a jig really doesn't, AND .... teaches you a lot about the joinery.

IF you have the time -- at least at first.

IIRC, Marc Spagnuolo (the Wood Whisperer) has a good how-to video, on his site, for hand-cutting DTs.

Good luck !

[Jerry Olexa]

If in a hurry, a Keller jig is FAST and simple...I had a new KELLER jig cutting DT's in 10 minutes...But a purist WWer would do handcuts for a heirloom look..

[Brian Kincaid]

IMHO, this one DOES fall rather nicely into the "hand tools or power tools" question.
I've never done hand-cut DTs. I bang them out rather adequately, using my P-C 4212 jig.
But ... I would think that the hand-cut method is far more satisfying, allows far more "art" in the execution (you CAN do variable spacing on many of the jigs), gives you a feeling of accomplishment that a jig really doesn't, AND .... teaches you a lot about the joinery.

Same experience and opinion. I use a Leigh D4 (variable spacing; for through only 8degree tails, half-blinds are variable tails depending on depth of cut http://www.leighjigs.com/cutters-d4.php). Since I leave one router set up, and use two for the operation I can cut them pretty quick. I have gotten so used to the jig that I do a single test corner then go to town.

They are not automatic however and the look and fit is largely due to how skillfully I cut them, so when I have them come out perfect I feel great. Examples of poor technique are: blowing out front/back, rocking router leaving gaps, poor glue-up leaving gaps, glue ruining stain/finish.

The $1000 estimate is a little high. D4's can be had for $300 on the used market. Even if you buy two 1-2HP routers for a dedicated setup you are still only at maybe $500-$600 dollars. But, great dovetail saws are just north of the $100 range so the point is well taken.

-Brian

[frank shic]

thanks for your responses. I'm going to try and do hand cut.

please post pics!!!

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I am still developing my skills, but no question I am committed to hand-cutting the joint by hand. As I have spent the last 9 months or so learning the skills, I can tell you that there are a surprising number of variations in technique. Pins vs. tails first...using a template vs. dividers...coping/fret/jewelers saw vs. only chisels (for removing waste)....paring only vs. some chopping. I am always encouraged in woodworking by the ability to find a technique (or set of) that feels just right to each craftsman.

[frank shic]

hand joinery works great for dovetailing. cutting tenons on the other hand has usually disappointed me.

[Andrew Gibson]

Go for the hand cuts.
I was given a dovetail jig for the router when I was about 16. I asked for one. I used it on one project and never used it again, in fact I only used it on the half blinds. I could not figure out haw to use it to cut through dovetails.
Every time you cut a dovetail joint you get a little better and a little faster.
buy a good DT saw and never look back.
also watch the Rob Cosman video, just remember they are a simple joint, and go for it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxIgNel0H_I

[Mark Henshaw]

1 or 2 drawers I cut by hand, anything more then that I turn to the Leigh jig. I would probably be faster if I practiced more on the hand cutting!

[Karl Brogger]

I am going to try doing dovetails. My question is how many of you do hand cut vs using a jig and router? I'm leaning to doing hand cut which I know has a learning curve ,but , due to $$$$ I'm staying away from the jigs.

Router and a jig for me.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs1197.snc4/154918_1585766255298_1570037517_31384423_4935465_n .jpg

Cutting them by hand would be a neat skill set to have, and one that I wish I had even if it wasn't used.



I've been shopping around for CNC dovetailers. Found one I really like, but its got a $50k pricetag.... I figure it'd take about 1600 drawers to get it to pay for itself, and I'm not at a point to get a decent turn around on that investment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dh80iYsNHVQ

[Dan Karachio]

Can some of you please describe the hand and bandsaw method you use? Much appreciated.

[Mike Henderson]

Can some of you please describe the hand and bandsaw method you use? Much appreciated.
Let's assume you do tails first (some people do pins first). You mark the tails, then walk over to your band saw and make the cuts along the tails with your bandsaw, instead of cutting them with a hand saw. One advanatage of the band saw is that the cut is 90* to the face of the wood. Some people have trouble making that cut with a hand saw.

One disadvantage of the band saw is that sometimes the cut is not as smooth as you'd prefer - certainly not as smooth as a hand saw cut. But the band sawn face will be hidden in the joint so it's not that important.

If you use a band saw, make the cut straight. DO NOT allow your cut to turn into a curved cut. If you make a curved cut on the side of a tail, you won't be able to cut the matching pin with your hand saw because the hand saw will not make a curved cut.

So a wide blade on the band saw is better than a narrow blade for cutting dovetail tails .

You still do the pins with a hand saw.

Mike

[Brett Bobo]

You still do the tails with a hand saw.
Mike

Morning Mike,
Did you intend to say that you still cut the pins with a hand saw? I'm brand new, only two days in, to hand-cut dovetails and took the 30 day dovetail challenge (isn't there a sticky for the dovetail challenge? Maybe miniatures?) to begin learning. My biggest problem is being able to cut the shoulders off on the tail side in a straight line. Does your body position help facilitate a straighter cut based on the side of the cut you're on? For example, do you stand on the waste side of the cut so if the saw deviates from straight, you error on the waste side, which can be pared away? I'm currently flipping the tail board to cut the shoulders so maybe I should always cut from the same position in relation to the wood. Any help is appreciated!

[Mike Henderson]

Morning Mike,
Did you intend to say that you still cut the pins with a hand saw? I'm brand new, only two days in, to hand-cut dovetails and took the 30 day dovetail challenge (isn't there a sticky for the dovetail challenge? Maybe miniatures?) to begin learning. My biggest problem is being able to cut the shoulders off on the tail side in a straight line. Does your body position help facilitate a straighter cut based on the side of the cut you're on? For example, do you stand on the waste side of the cut so if the saw deviates from straight, you error on the waste side, which can be pared away? I'm currently flipping the tail board to cut the shoulders so maybe I should always cut from the same position in relation to the wood. Any help is appreciated!
Oops, you're right. That should be "You still cut the pins with a hand saw."

I'm afraid I can't help much with body position when cutting. I just don't think about it. When I first started with dovetails, I had the same problem and would cut to the waste side of the line and then trim away with a chisel. Eventually, I gained enough courage to cut to the line and seem to be able to do it okay. Practice, practice, practice.

[one more comment] For years, I used a small Japanese saw for cutting dovetails. I now have some western dovetail saws but still like the Japanese saw. It's not too expensive to buy and when it gets dull, or you break teeth, you can just buy a new blade.

Mike

[Josh Rudolph]

I am learning to hand cut right now using Klausz method. It is so easy and much faster for me doing pins first. I have played with the tails first method, but much prefer pins first.

However, I do have a Leigh jig that I believe I got dialed in for my upcoming drawer build. I got a really good deal on Ambrosia Maple and will be using it for drawers. It is some hard stuff to chop out with chisels, so I am going to machine them with the jig. So I am a hybrid you could say. I will hand cut a few drawers after that I break out the Leigh. The variable spacing is pretty nice and once setup (which does take a little bit of time) you can zip right through however many you need to make.

[frank shic]

Morning Mike,
Did you intend to say that you still cut the pins with a hand saw? I'm brand new, only two days in, to hand-cut dovetails and took the 30 day dovetail challenge (isn't there a sticky for the dovetail challenge? Maybe miniatures?) to begin learning. My biggest problem is being able to cut the shoulders off on the tail side in a straight line. Does your body position help facilitate a straighter cut based on the side of the cut you're on? For example, do you stand on the waste side of the cut so if the saw deviates from straight, you error on the waste side, which can be pared away? I'm currently flipping the tail board to cut the shoulders so maybe I should always cut from the same position in relation to the wood. Any help is appreciated!

it just takes practice but even if you're slightly off, who cares? it's just more proof that it was hand cut lol ;)

[Dan Karachio]

Let's assume you do tails first (some people do pins first). You mark the tails, then walk over to your band saw and make the cuts along the tails with your bandsaw, instead of cutting them with a hand saw. One advanatage of the band saw is that the cut is 90* to the face of the wood. Some people have trouble making that cut with a hand saw.

One disadvantage of the band saw is that sometimes the cut is not as smooth as you'd prefer - certainly not as smooth as a hand saw cut. But the band sawn face will be hidden in the joint so it's not that important.

If you use a band saw, make the cut straight. DO NOT allow your cut to turn into a curved cut. If you make a curved cut on the side of a tail, you won't be able to cut the matching pin with your hand saw because the hand saw will not make a curved cut.

So a wide blade on the band saw is better than a narrow blade for cutting dovetail tails .

You still do the pins with a hand saw.

Mike

Thanks Mike. I have done this. I also read about a jig for cutting everything on a bandsaw. Part of it was basically a jig - a wedge at 10 degrees or so used with spacers. I think I saw it in a bandsaw book. Some day I may try it.