Sawing to a line using handsaw

[Bruce Delaney]

Well I have embarked on the journey to learn cut dovetails by hand. I invested in some useful tools such as a LN dovetail saw, Titemark marking gauge, a dovetail layout gauge, striking knive, bevel-edge chisels etc.

I have read several books and magazines about making dovetails, watched Rob Cosman's DVD on dovetails and generally understand the steps and concepts to make them. However, the part I don't quite seem to master well is sawing to a line--essential to accurate dovetails. The cut tends to wander, mostly to the right but sometimes to the left also (perhaps due to my attempts to compensate during the cut). The cut surfaces are also pretty rough and show the ridges created by the saw quite well (I wasn't expecting glass smooth surfaces as you would expect from a router but I'm concerned the roughness may affect glue up and show up as small gaps in the finished joint).

I'm using a LN dovetail saw and given its reputation, it wouldn't be fair for me to blame the tool. I suspect my problem could be improved by better technique but I'm not sure what is consider good sawing technique when needing to saw to a line. I think a woodworking class may help me but in the meantime I'm looking for your experiences in this area.

Thanks all!

[Jim Becker]

I recently cut them by hand for the first time on my armoire project. Even after a bit of practice on scrap, I was still having some wandering, so I made a cheater block with the correct angles that I could hold on the workpiece with my left hand and used it to guide the saw through the cut. This was particularly helpful when starting each kerf...that's the hardest for me it seems.

And the problem isn't the saw...it's the saw-holder! "He/she" just needs to practice a bit before cutting straight comes naturally...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10810&stc=1 shows a picture of me using the block. It has a perpendicular piece that keeps it flat/aligned with the panel. That piece is out of the picture as it's on the underside for this particular cut. The reverse angle has it on top. The board clamped on the bottom was just to help me stop at the right spot since this long panel had to lie flat on the bench, rather than be in a more comfortable vertical position.

[Mark Singer]

It takes a lot of practice to saw straight! The thicker the stock the easier it is to wander....I will try to give you a few tips...

!. Guide the saw with your left thumb
2. The first few strokes will set up the cut...take your time and make them good ones.
3. The saw should not be gripped tight...it should be held relaxed and easy.
4. For dovetails...keep the index finger pointed ...the handle lower then the blade, cutting on the waste side of the line. Once you hit the marking gauge line let the saw amgle down in front
5. Practice by drawing lines with a square on sides and top...practice. develop a smooth stroke.
6. Practice on a scrap before each new drawer is attempted.

Sawing is the biggest issue with tight ftting dovetails...the chisel and removal is easy...scribimg pins from tails is critical...must be dead on...and then saw straight and on the waste side of the line

[Leif Hanson]

Here's a section of something I wrote about "Hand Saw Basics" on my website for techniques. and for troubleshooting wandering saw problems with using a hand saw. While it's written for larger hand saws, the same ideas applies to smaller saws such as dovetails saws.

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General Concepts


From here, most of the techniques I will describe are for right handed people, so left handed people need to switch left for right... To guide the start of your saw, grasp the board just to the left of where you plan to cut, and use your thumb and forefinger as a guide for the saw, like this:

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http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/thumbguide.jpg


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One finger is plenty for smaller saws. Sight down the top of saw, and line up the saw to the mark, putting the blade on the waste side of the cut. Watch that you are holding the saw perpendicular to the stock - if it helps, use a square piece of stock, or a square to help you. Over time, and with practice, this will become second-hand to you. Use your hand holding the saw to keep light pressure on your fingers, guiding the saw for it's first few cuts. Hold the saw at about 45 degrees off of parallel to the board.

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Once you get the cut started, let the saw do most of the work. Use full length strokes, utilizing the full length of the saw. Keep an eye on the line you are cutting to, and adjust your cut accordingly... Many small adjustments are much easier than one big one - if it gets too big, it can be difficult if not impossible to straighten out.

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Guides


http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/cutangles.gif


If keeping the saw straight so your cuts are square and perpendicular is difficult for you, use a guide to aid you in holding your saw correctly. A guide can be as simple as an old 2" x 2" or 2" x 3" piece of pine cut from construction lumber, or a chunk of plywood - whatever you need to help train yourself to cut straighter, something similar to what you see in the diagram above, so long as it's straight. I have several shop made "fences" I use around the shop made out of scrap plywood that I use for this purpose, and also as a temporary fence for the drill press or band saw - or what ever comes up that requires the use of one. Very handy!

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As you gain proficiency with your saw, you will need these guides less and less; but they can be very helpful in teaching yourself proper technique. It does take practice, though! Don't expect it to just "come" to you.

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When Sawing Tenons and Dovetails


Always cut on the waste side of the cut - always mark the waste being cut with an 'X' so that you are not confused when it comes time to start the cut. Leave just a little of the waste on the pins or the tenon, and remove that with a file afterwards, if necessary. Remember, it's easier to remove wood than it is to put it back on. An important aspect of cutting tenons and dovetails is how the grain is oriented when starting the cut. A back saw with a rip profile is probably best for dovetails and the cheek cuts made for a tenon - using a finer saw for the dovetails. To avoid tear-out, start the cut with the grain, rather than against it (note - this applies to starting the cut only):

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http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/images/graindir.gif


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Sawing with the grain, as shown above on the left, tends to compress the fibers of the wood against itself, where with the figure on the right, the wood has no backing, therefore it is more likely for the wood to tear out. As the cut progresses, there's less chance for tear-out on the other side, and you can adjust your attack angle as needed.

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Tenons and dovetails are best cut with a back saw. For dovetails, start the cut about at the angle shown and continue cutting, leveling off the cut as the saw reaches the other side, then start cutting with the saw perpendicular to the board being cut. For a tenon cut, start the cut with the work angled away about 45 degrees away from the saw, then as the cut proceeds through to the other side, change it so it angles toward you, cutting against the grain as it's shown in the above diagram. Watch for tear-out on the far end of the cut. As you approach the depth on the far side, level the saw out to cut the remaining middle portion.

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Keep the work clamped in a vise, and keep the work at between elbow and shoulder level if possible - make sure it's at a height that you can use the saw comfortably, and still gaze over the work-piece to make sure you are following the lines you've scribed. Sight down the saw, keeping an eye on both sides of the saw and that it's perpendicular (or to whatever angle you're working), Keep the cut of the saw on the waste side of the line. If you use a marking knife, once you have a bit of practice, it's a fun challenge to see how evenly you can split the line it makes with your saw cut.

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Shoulder Cuts and miter cuts made in a miter box have good results using a crosscut back saw if you start the saw at about a 20 degree angle to the stock, and work it towards level as the saw proceeds through the stock. A miter box is a very handy item to have around to make accurately cut angles, but if you don't have one, you can get it close then use a shooting board and a miter plane to dial it in. For most cases, a shooting board is the best way, as it is very hard to hand saw a mitered angle perfectly - there's often some saw-tooth marks or other imperfections that need tuning.

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Cleanup can be done with a paring chisel or a file. A skew chisel is handy for getting into the corners of dovetails, and a shoulder plane is great for cleaning up the shoulder cuts on a tenon. The cheeks of the tenon will clean up nicely with a chisel or file, too.

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The Saw Always Wanders to One Side


This can be caused by a couple of things - usually it's either the saw was sharpened inconsistently from one side to the other, or was set inconsistently from one side to the other. The fix is almost always the same, though. If there is enough set left, you can stone the side to which the saw is wandering:

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http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/stoning.jpg

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Here, stoning just the side shown would reduce tendencies for the saw to track to the right. Draw a line, and test that the saw can follow a line:

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http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/ww/sawbasics/testcut.jpg

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The test is the same for a rip cut, just that you would draw the line oriented with the grain instead - ripping, in other words.

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Take a light pass with the stone, then draw a line a board and test it. If the saw still wanders, repeat the above until it doesn't. It shouldn't take more than a couple light passes with the stone to keep it from wandering, if it does, then the saw probably needs to be re-sharpened, paying special attention to consistency between the two sides. Go slowly - you are removing set, and if you remove too much, the saw will bind.

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It is always possible that it could be technique. Check to make sure the strokes you make with the saw are themselves causing the saw to wander. Never try to force the saw one way or the other, let the saw make the cut. Just make sure you are holding the saw at the proper angle through the stroke, and let the saw do most of the work from there.

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The Saw is Difficult to Control - Wandering


This is almost always because there is too much set in the saw for what it's being used for. The extra set causes the saw to cut too wide of a kerf, and then the saw has a hard time guiding itself in its own cut. The fix is the same as the above - only this time, you'll need to stone both sides of the saw blade, doing both sides with a light pass then testing. The consequences are the same as well, as removing too much set may require you to re-sharpen the saw. Go carefully, and test each stoning with a new test cut. Again, go slowly - you are removing set, and if you remove too much, the saw will bind, and require re-setting.

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Again, it is always possible that it could be technique - check it as described above.


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I hope that wasn't too painful to read... If it wasn't, or you are a glutton for punishment, there's more to be read here (http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/). I hope this is the sort of thing you're looking for... I'm not too great at writing this stuff, but doing so helps me out (like a journal), as well as maybe helps others out at the same time.

Leif

[John Miliunas]

Great writeup, Leif! I'm adding this one to my "favorites"! Thanks.:) :cool:

[Steve Wargo]

Don't apply much downward pressure on the saw. Concentrate on guiding the saw and let the saw do the work. I've seen, on more than one occassion, people who think that in order to make the saw cut they must push down on it. If it's sharp you shouldn't have to. As said above. Practice cutting on scrap, and not pins and tails. Just straight lines. ope this helps.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Make sure the wood you're using is hard enough, say cherry. You don't want to be cutting dt's in pine as a rule.

How large are your dt's? I've never used the LN dt saw, but have used the LN straight handled thing for a few minutes. Most dt's are so short that I can't imagine having enough time or room to deviate mid-cut. The LN I used was perfect, sturdy, fast. I normally use a rip dozuki; but even that isn't all that important, dt's are just short, fast cuts.

How about trying some cuts without lines, pick up a piece of wood and start cutting pins or tails, don't draw any lines, see how it goes.

Don't grip the saw too tightly, should be kind of loose/gentle, your hand is to guide it only, let gravity do almost all the work.

Pam

[Marshall Harrison]

This may be cheating but Lee Valley has a cutting guide for dovetails. It's is similiar to a dovetail layout guage/plate but it has a rare earth magnet that grips the saw as you cut. I haven't got one but it sre looks like it would keep your saw cuts on the line. It's made by Veritas and the item number is 05T02.01. You can find it on their website.

[Ed Hardin]

I've got one. It takes practice with that too but it is much easier. But with me, I can screw it up anyway. I started a project that required 24 mortise and tenons for the sole purpose of learning to cut the things. Thus far I've built it 3 times more or less, redoing my screw ups. But, I'm learning. :o

[Jerry Palmer]

Step number two in Mark's post is the most important issue. If you're getting saw marks from a very good saw, it is because you are trying to change the plane on which the saw is cutting. Another indication of this is that the saw seems to be binding in the kerf.

[Marc Hills]

This has got to be one of the best forum post discussions on hand tool technique I have read in a long time. Mark, Jim and Leif's emphasis on starting the cut accurately are extremely helpful.

I can only echo a couple of points. I too struggle to obtain tight fitting dovetails. It does get better with practice, but as your skill improves Bruce, so too will your personal standards. So your 'net satisfaction' will increase very slowly.

For the time being, I make a habit of cutting a bit on the waste side of the scribe line. So when I'm done with the saw, I can still see the entire line. I then sneak up a tight fit with a paring chisel. As time has gone by, I've been able to begin my cuts closer to the scribe, but even now I still manage to go over somewhere and it shows as a gap.

I shouldn't worry too much about saw marks left on the faces of the pins and tails. The only thing visible will be on the board faces where the twain meet. Taking into account a minute amount of wood fiber compression and particularly if you clean up with a chisel, that line of demarkation between the pins and tails will be pretty clean.

I also don't think you should worry too much about how less than glass smooth faces will affect the strength of the glueup. A dovetail joint is primarily a mechanical joint, it's strength depends relatively little on the glue.

Finally, I have to second Pam's caution about not doing dovetails with pine. (At least not until you get better) It's a little counterintuitive to a beginner, but pine is too soft to hold an accurate line while cutting, the fibers compress too much and splinter too readily as you fine tune the fit with a chisel. Better to practice on a hard wood. Even poplar is a lot better.

[Mark Singer]

I think it is easier to do DTs in hard wood...in pine cut them tighter than normal...the wood will compess whem they go together

[Tony Zaffuto]

Bruce,

I'm going to "echo" March Hill's response, that Mark, Lief and Jim really gave some applicable advice.

I would say I'm only 12 to 16 months ahead of where you are today, and basically the responses already given hit the nail right on the head.

I made a few saw guides, but threw them out and I would also discount the use of the LV guide. You got to get to the root cause of the issues you have, and correct them. No saw guide will correct a technique or equipment deficiency.

Pam also made a very good suggestion to stay away from softwood. After I changed my practice wood to poplar and cherry, my dovetails immediately started looking better.

In short, it's "Practice", "Practice" and "More Practice"! Also, I would suggest you keep and date some practice dovetails. I like comparing what I can do today to what I did months or years ago.

Tony Z.

[Tim Sproul]

In short, it's "Practice", "Practice" and "More Practice"!

Amen.


One of the "benefits" of an apprenticeship is that you learned to saw straight well before you were allowed to cut joinery...........

[Michael Perata]

I took a dove tail class from a guy named Arnold Champagne last summer. He was taught dove tails by Krenov up in Fort Bragg at the College of the Redwoods.

According to Champagne, Krenov's students were required to make 1,000 (true?) practice cuts before they were allowed to use a chisel in making the dove tails.

Practice, practice, practice ...

Also, try making your cuts with a Zona Razor Saw with 32 tpi. Very easy to use and extremely inexpensive. http://www.zonatool.com

[Geoff Irvine]

Bruce ,
Just a few addendum to the above very good advice that might help.
I have seen Rob Cosman and the thing that impressed me most was the care that he took setting up his work - he paid particular attention to ensuring that the piece he is working on is perpindiclar to the bench (as it wasn't his bench he even checked that it was level first). He angled his cuts but some people angle the work so that the cut is perpendicular to the horizontal - its up to you but I find this too much messing about. Also he made me think about the control of the saw in the setting up of the cut which as Mark points out is where most problems originate. He "pinches" across the work and uses the tip of his index finger and thumb to rest his saw against - I'm used to doing it Mark's way with the thumb alone but this method seems to give more control. This leads into the forth point Mark made about pointing the index finger when sawing - it gives better control and more feedback as to 'where' the saw is. As an aside , in surgery when you grip a pair of scissors you use a surgeon's grip which involves the thumb, forth finger and the index finger on the pivot thus forming a triangle which is more stable, has better control and the ability "know" where the tip is. It is my impression that in both the above situations a triangle is being formed also.
As Steve says when you are starting take most of the weight of the saw on the initial cut - this was a point that Rob Cosman emphasized.
I think the most enjoyable part of the above discussion and seeing demonstrations from people like Rob Cosman is the way it makes you think about the process. I hope this has helped . :)
PS. I am completely in awe of the depth and bredth of knowledge that is found in these forums and links .

[Marc Hills]

According to Champagne, Krenov's students were required to make 1,000 (true?) practice cuts before they were allowed to use a chisel in making the dove tails.



It they were practicing with cherry, I think I want to cry.......

[Mark Singer]

Marc,Geoff,

Sometimes I take a piece of 1/2 " scrap....saw cut after cut parrallel an 1/8" apart flip it over ...do the other end...take it to the bandsaw slice off the cuts and start over again....that is after 30 years!

Gripping the saw in a relaxed way is key!! If you grip it tight it will wander.

The same is true of chopping dovetails...place the chisel in the scribe and push...no tapping at first...tap lightly to just set the chisel...then tap harder...

The saw needs to be set to the line with great care ...cut a light kerf....a bit more and then go..

[Gary Herrmann]

I took a class two years ago and the instructor suggested marking a series of lines on a piece of scrap of the same type of wood. Just practice sawing to those lines over and over. You'll see an improvement before you know it.

I haven't made anything with hand cut dovetails in about a year, and next time I do, I expect I'll have to practice to get back in the swing of it.

As another newbie that does a lot of reading I'll also tell you that its easy to have high expectations of yourself. Consider handtool things to be like a good golf swing, shooting free throws or any other skill requiring hand-eye coordination. No one starts out as an expert. We all have to spend some time practicing.