Varnishing my current guitar project.

[george wilson]

I had previously shown pictures of an unvarnished guitar I have under way. Also asked questions about wqhere to get DECENT old fashioned oil varnish(or some such). I finally bought the last 2 SMALL cans of Ace oil varnish they had at Ace hdwe. Not sure if they will ever stock any more.

I may have to go back to making my own varnish,but getting GENUINE turpentine from the LIVING tree may not be possible.

Anyhoo,I have been hand varnishing the guitar with a 1" ox hair flat artist's brush(they no longer stock my favorite brush,of course). The Ace oil varnish is going on quite smoothly for a brushed finish. I'll have to wet sand the varnish and hand rub it. So far,so good.

I wish that Sherwin Williams still had the varnish they used to make. The new stuff is like brushing on snot. Impossible to get on smoothly,thinned or not. Their old oil varnish was wonderful. I don't see why people have to fix it if it isn't broken!!!

This Ace varnish was thinned with about 25% mineral spirits.

Previously,I had filled the very open grain of the rosewood with alcohol thinned 5 minute epoxy. A subsequent treatment of walnut paste wood filler was added after the rosewood was sealed. I did this because any oil on this rosewood will turn it black as ebony. After adding the paste wood filler,the epoxy was continued until no open pores were left.

This is about the 4th coat of oil varnish. I'll add a few more so I won't cut through when wet sanding and rubbing.

The finish is QUITE THIN,though it looks like 20 coats. This is to preserve the tone. Everything was sanded nearly off between coats,to fill the grain without building up a thick finish.

[Dan Andrews]

Absolutely stunning George. I never thought about sealing wood with thinned epoxy. I seem to learn something every time I read your posts.

[Kevin McMichael]

It looks Brazilian?

If it sounds as good as it looks, Tony Rice will be jealous.

[george wilson]

It's a trick I picked up back in the 80's. Be warned though,rosewood has BIG,LONG pores. It is a PITA to fill with epoxy. That's why I added paste wood filler after sealing off the rosewood with epoxy. Something like the mahogany neck filled right up after 1 or 2 coats of THIN epoxy with alcohol.

BE CAREFUL if you try this. Wait about 1 1/2 or 2 hours,and sand the epoxy off when it is "leather hard". If you wait overnight,it is HARD to sand. I only have used the 5 minute epoxy. The alcohol slows it down in hardening. BUT,HOW MUCH alcohol you use will greatly affect the "leather hard" stage it gets to. I do it by eye,but I'll GUESS that I use a 10 to one alcohol to epoxy mix(the alcohol is 10X the epoxy. Experiment yourself. It may not be as thin as 10 to 1. Too thin,and you get too little filler value. When you get it leather hard,the epoxy rolls off in little footballs,but stays in the grain.

[george wilson]

Yes,Brazilian cut up at the mill in 1960. Probably harvested in the 50's. The spruce top was processed in 1968. I haven't varnished it yet,though.

[Chris Vandiver]

George,
Have you ever tried "penetrating epoxy"?
Here's a link:http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html

[Mark Baldwin III]

Another great thing about the thinnned epoxy is strength. I used it on one of my R/C racing boats. 50mph into a bouy? No problem! Most f-glass or carbon hulls would have split. Does the epoxy have any effect on the sound of the guitar?

[David Weaver]

Very nice looking guitar, george. Very nice. You should keep making them and sell them off the rack when you get one done (i.e., whenever you feel like it). They wouldn't last too long, especially not brazilians. The only problem is if someone got one and it was a killer, then everyone they knew would be calling you trying to get another one custom.

I think I asked you this already, is it red spruce or sitka?

[george wilson]

Since I sand all of it off each time,till the pores are filled up,I don't think it has much effect on the tone. It is certainly better than spraying on many coats of lacquer(which always shrinks back into the pores). Lacquer keeps on drying and shrinking for MANY years. It's amazing how long it will keep on shrinking. The epoxy won't shrink,neither will the varnish since it doesn't dry by evaporation. Once it's dry,its dry.

[John Toigo]

By chance I acquired a couple cans of Broadhead & Garrett (sp?) Wiping Varnish. It's very nice. I thinned it about 30% & then wiped it on with a soft rag. I did 3 coats, sanded with 320 & then 3 more coats & rubbed out with 0000 steel wool. The finish came out silky smooth without that plastic look. I find a lot of finishes look like they're sitting on top of the wood & make it shiny. I like a deeper look that makes the wood glow. I always know when the finish is right. People touch it - almost involuntarily - and then they keep on feeling it.

[george wilson]

How deep the finish looks depends upon the refractive index of the finish. Also,it depends upon the sealer that is used. A lot of commercial guitar makers use this vinyl sealer. It makes the finish look cold and lifeless,and really hurts the guitar's appearance. Ruins it,as far as I'm concerned. I would never use it,and I wonder if it isn't much more than thinned out white glue?? I've seen videos of one major maker of solid bodies(in California,think Ventures) coating their bodies. If I recall correctly,they DIP the whole body in the white stuff and squeegee it off.

Brodhead Garrett. That brings back memories. Back in 1963 when I started teaching shop,we had to order everything from them. They used to sell their J-line wood working machinery. I don't know who made it. The machinery was very plain,and had an ugly,stone looking,rough textured finish with little spatters in it. The J-Line stuff was really good,heavy machinery,though. MUCH better than you can get these days. In the past few years,I have seen their wood lathes and 20" bandsaws turn up. If anything was ever "boy proof" it was their stuff!

If I needed equipment,I'd buy it,sand off the rough spatter finish,and repaint them gray,like all machinery should be painted!:)

[Michael Gaynes]

J-Line ("Junior-Line") was made by Yates-American starting in the 1930's. (http://www.owwm.com/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=782)

Notable quote: "During the 1960s, Yates-American ran live infomercials on Sunday afternoons on WGN in Chicago. The company president happened to be watching one Sunday as the demonstrator cut off his thumb on live television. Shortly afterwards, the company sold its consumer-oriented J-Line to Broadhead-Garrett".

[george wilson]

I didn't know Yates American made the J-Line. Thanks. The machinery was very plain-Jane. Especially the 20" bandsaw,just made out of square housings. But,REALLY good stuff.

The Wood shop across the hall from my wood shop(for the older students) had a Yates American direct drive tilting table table saw. It was VERY big and heavy. Had a LONG 5 h.p. motor on the spindle,and about a 12" dia. wheel to crank the tilting table. It was an occasion when they had to tilt that thing!! They also had a 36" Crescent thickness planer,which would be nice to have!! As the new,21 year old teacher,I taught the 8th. grade students. TWO wood shops,AND a METAL shop!!! My,how things have changed for the worse !

[Johnny Kleso]

George,
You can get Naval Stores (Turpintine) maybe from Agrirama Tifton, GA. I THINK
http://www.abac.edu/museum/

I can't remember the directors name but he is a big woodworker and I went to a tool show there..
Here are some pics of the Still..




The place a mini Williamsberg

[george wilson]

Thanks,I bookmarked it.

[John Toigo]

Not to totally hijack the thread but Yates was always known for solid machinery. I had a 16" Yates jointer that weighed in @ 1900#. My shop is almost all vintage machines but that's the only Yates piece I've owned.

[george wilson]

Well,even their J-Line was much more solid than anything offered today.

[Ron Petley]

What a beauty George, something to be said for patience and of course skill. Something about having some boards sit around for years waiting for the perfect project and having it come out so well. Speaks to having some respect for the quality of the wood.
I have a chunk of rosewood that has been sitting on the shelf for a good 20 years waiting to be made into something.
Cheers Ron.

[george wilson]

It COULD mean that I was just too stingy to use it! Actually,the last series of guitars I built were curly maple. Maple jumbos have gained popularity. It is said that strings seem to sound better longer with maple backs. I was also building some archtop guitars,some of which I posted. They aren't made of rosewood.

I still have Brazilian that I bought back in 1959 and 60. There was a veneer mill close to Old Dominion College,Penrod,Jurden,and Clark. They sold rosewood for the then high price of $2.50 per board ft. Back then,the best I could make at Summer jobs was $1.00 an hour. When I started teaching shop in 1963(or 64?) I think I made $2.50 an hour.

[John Toigo]

I'd be curious to see your recipe for varnish George. If you don't mind sharing it.

[george wilson]

I used Ace oil varnish thinned with about 25% mineral spirits on this guitar. Years ago I made my varnish,but as I mentioned,REAL turpentine has become very hard to find(in gallons). I'm sure artist's turpentine is available if I want to pay a bunch for a few ounces. I'm going to check out the Georgia museum source.

I actually tapped my own trees back in the 70's. I lived in a wooded area which Williamsburg owned. The land has since been razed for development,but there were a bunch of good sized pines there. I recall when there were large hardwood trees in front of the house there. Nice,tall,clear trunks. They got eliminated when the highway was widened.

I have very large pines in my yard now,but do not want to tap them.

I had bubbled air through the turps for weeks. It would get thick as Karo syrup,and be clear as a diamond. It turned into terpene resins,which was the resin I used for a lot of varnishes. Cooked in the presence of iron,the resins got very chemically active,and absorbed iron oxide,making a beautiful brown,clear varnish. I was only concerned about varnishing violins with the colored varnishes. It certainly would never fade,being at the end of the chemical chain.

To this,I added edible linseed oil,which I had previously polymerized by simmering it at a low heat for about 20 minutes. It would turn a beautiful golden color when it started to polymerize. It was mixed with the resin and cooked till gossamer strands would form when a stick dipped into the hot varnish was touched to a cold bottle. Then,the varnish was cooled till warm,and turpentine added to thin it.

The proportions are critical. The process is very dangerous,and should ONLY BE DONE OUTSIDE. Several big fireballs happened during my experiments over the years since the varnish can suddenly boil over before I could get the pan off the hotplate. Must run.