sliding table saw or vertical panel saw

[john s white]

Hi all....new member here and i love this place already. I retired in the spring of 2010 and moved to north eastern Washington state to a raw piece of property i bought 8 years ago. During the spring summer and fall, i set up a 5th wheel with additions and a laundry room for my wife and i to live in warm and comfortable, but mainly i built my dream shop. Two stories and 36x36 with an 18x8 bump out for bathroom and compressor room. It is fantastic and am finishing things in it all the time, refining things and am now wanting to add tools as i finally have a shop with room for more. I have always struggled with full sheets of plywoods first cutting that first cut and second getting a clean splinter free cut. So, a long winded question but i am there now, should i get an expensive sliding table saw in the 5k to 8k range or a vertical panel saw in the 3k to 4k range. I have done extensive shopping at various brands and found some fantastic saws by Felder and Hammer, some very nice saws by Grizzly and Laguna in more affordable prices and a great model of vertical panel saw by Safety Speed Cut, the 6400. Having not used any of these tools it is hard for me to make a decision and i would love any and all input you all could help me with .....So thanks in advance and i look forward and value your opinions. :):)

[Scot Ferraro]

Hi John,

Welcome to the Creek! If you plan on working with solid wood too, I would opt for a sliding table saw verses a vertical panel saw. If you are going to work with only sheet goods, I might change my thinking. There are some good deals and I know that Felder and Hammer have some really good holiday specials going on right now. Another option is a track saw like Festool, DeWalt or Makita -- these allow easy, safe and accurate cutting of sheet goods without having to move the sheet -- great for breaking things down. Even with a slider you still have to muscle the material onto the sliding table. A track saw allows you to bring the tool to the work.

Scot

[Frank Drew]

What Scot said.

And welcome to the board, John!

[Charles Wiggins]

Welcome John,

I have a Festool TS55 that I use for breaking down sheet goods and I love it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVEoh0UXIQ

[bradley strong]

Congrats on your retirement and the great piece of property.

I used to own a cabinet shop where I had a panel saw. It is very useful for breaking down plywood, but that is its only use. They take up a ton of wall space as ripping requires in feed and out feed areas. You need about 17 feet of wall space to accommodate it.

How much plywood are you really going to use? If you are mainly building furniture, it's hard to justify the panel saw. Quality of cut is more dependent on the saw blade than anything. An 80t plywood blade and a zero clearance insert on the table saw should produce a perfect cut.

A sliding table saw will be appreciated every step of the way on every project. The best can cross cut full sheet goods. Once a sheet is broken down with one cross or rip cut, it is usually manageable. A saw with a scoring blade makes perfect cuts in plywood easy.

The real challenge with sheet goods is getting them up on the table saw for that first cut. Commercial shops often use an overhead lift with a vacuum clamp to lift sheet goods. I've considered fabricating one from an electric winch and a vacuum pump. http://www.reisite.net/vacuum.htm to get an idea.

Many people just make one cut on the floor with a straight edge and circular saw. One of the places I get lumber and sheet goods from offers cutting services and one does not. If your supplier offers a cutting service, it is a great bargain in the short and long run. The home woodworker would be hard pressed to spend $100 in cutting services in their lifetime.

A motorcycle lift can also be used as a rolling, adjustable height plywood cart. You can unload the plywood off the truck with it (keep dropping the height as you unload each sheet). Roll it over to the table saw, adjust the height to match the top sheet, and slide onto the table saw. It acts as its own in feed table for rip cuts. Raise the lift for each sheet. A nice, pneumatic one can be had for about $800. Economy versions can be found for $400.

If you were running a cabinet shop, a panel saw would be a no brainer. For the home woodworker, there is so many other things to spend the money on. I don't think you would regret a 48" sliding table saw. You may find a panel saw collecting dust most of the time.

Brad

[Rod Sheridan]

John, for a home shop buy yourself a sliding table saw.

I have a Hammer B3 Winner which also includes a tilting spindle shaper.

If you're going to buy a sliding saw, buy one with a long enough slider to do the work you want to do.

Buy one with a scoring saw for flawless cuts in laminated or veneered materials.

I use the shaper a fair bit, the tilting spindle coupled with a sliding table is great, and I have the tilt away power feeder, makes beautiful cuts safely.

In my opinion a vertical panel saw is too specialised, and doesn't give as good a cut quality as a slider with scoring.

Regards, Rod.

[Andrew Joiner]

I have always struggled with full sheets of plywoods first cutting that first cut and second getting a clean splinter free cut. :):)

Hi John,
I had a Safety Speed Cut from 1970 to 2005. You get splinter free cuts with good blades. Now in my hobby wood shop, I use a vertical panel saw that I made. I get cutting accuracy of 1/64" straight and square just like my old Safety Speed Cut.

The vertical saws are the way to go for 1 person, if you store your sheets on edge. I can slide sheets thru without scratching veneer faces. If you store your sheets on the faces and have a way to lift them onto a slider, you may be OK.

A vertical saw and storage take up less space. You can flip thru sheets on edge with less effort.

One key thing to cut quality on these verticals ,shopmade or mass produced, is to use a saw with no wobble in the bearings. Test for wobble by shaking the blade sideways and feel for play. On a good saw the blade will bend a little but no play. Even the cheaper Safety Speed Cut models have Milwaukee saws, so they may be fine. The Panel Pro model has a Ryobi saw so that may wobble.

[Chip Lindley]

This is an Apples/Oranges proposition, IMO. The two machines cannot be accurately compared to each other. Sliders have scoring blades to insure chip-free/splinter-free cuts in melamine and finely-veneered plywood. Panels can be ripped and crosscut to final size in one operation, ready to add edge banding.

Vertical panel saws have no scoring blade and cannot give as fine a finish cut. Parts with exposed edges may have to be cut oversize, then edged with router or table saw.

Comparing these machines depends on your perception of "finished cut" and how many times you wish to handle your material before assembly.

I have no room for a slider or a vertical panel saw. I don't suffer much breaking down sheet goods with an accurate straightedge fixture and SkilSaw, then trimming on the PM66. But, I am not on a production schedule either!

[Peter Aeschliman]

Move vote is for both!!! :)

I have tried cutting full sheets of plywood on my table saw and it's not a fun experience. Hard on your back, hard to be accurate. The panel saw will break the sheets down well; the sliding table saw will give you the final cuts.

As far as your budget goes, you can get a good vertical panel saw on craigslist for around $1k... I see them on craigslist from time to time. I would say buy yourself an average vertical panel saw and a really nice sliding table saw. Judging from your budget, you should easily be able to pull that off. Best of both worlds.

[Jerome Hanby]

Welcome John,

I have a Festool TS55 that I use for breaking down sheet goods and I love it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTVEoh0UXIQ

Me too. Build a cutting table with folding banquet table legs and 2x4s from the borg (snoop awound the FWW site to find an article showing one). I use that to break down sheet goods outside the garage. Makes wrangling plywood and MDF much easier (cutting the MDF outside is a big bonus too, I hate all that flour)

[Joe Jensen]

This is a big purchase. Some considerations.
1) Find someone with a slider, a quality euro style one, and see the cut quality. I bought a Felder KF700SP in January and I have yet even need to set up the scoring blade. I think this is because the wood is clamped to the slider so it has ZERO movement or vibration when passing the blade. Once you see what the edge cut on hardwood looks like when the part is clamped to a slider, you will know why people love them so much for home shop use.
2) Buy a slider that has enough travel. I was going to get one with 8 ft of travel but wise owners showed me that I need room on each end for clamping so I got a 9 ft slide version. This way I can rip full sheets. Commercial ones normally have 10 ft of travel.
3) There are TONS of commercial 3 Phase sliders on the market due to the recession. The downside is that they are even larger and require 3 phase. The upside is they are even better built and much cheaper. I've seen lots and lots of commercial sliders selling for $5-8K. If you are worried about used, for like $1K you could hire a factory tech to set it up and check it out.
4) Used Felder and SCMI smaller machines can be a good deal. I ended up picking Felder largely because the Felder sales guy was just as happy to help me buy a used one from prior customers as he was in selling me a new one. SCMI sales also seemed very willing to sell used machines, but really only from their inventory.

A new Felder loaded 700 series saw/shaper with all the options can list for well over $20K. I saw a couple of used ones this year that were only 1-2 years old sell for around $10K. These were 5HP machines with 9 ft slides...joe

[Karl Brogger]

Vertical panel saws have no scoring blade and cannot give as fine a finish cut. Parts with exposed edges may have to be cut oversize, then edged with router or table saw.

Two things:
1. Yes they do, just not the model he's looking at.
2. It isn't really needed. You can cut backwards up the face, then plunge the blade all the way in to make the cut. With a sharp blade the chipping is pretty minimal. Zero on the center sheets if you are ripping or crosscutting three at a crack.


Vertical panel saw all the way. Just not the Safety Speed Cut. Small foot print, easier to use, and way more capable, at least when it comes to sheet stock.


A good vertical panel saw will run about twice the money as a sliding panel saw. You can find a used Opti-Saw2 for less than $20k, they're a bit over $40k new. I've seen Compact plus's run $7k to $15 depending on condition.

Depends how serious you are. lol

[Andrew Joiner]

On Safety Speed Cuts I've used the cuts are ready for edge banding. Even my shopmade panel saw cuts are ready for banding.

[William A. Parker]

John it sounds like you are living the Dream! Can you share with use the kind of woodworking you will mainly be doing and what is your primary
saw currently?
Good Luck Bill

[john s white]

Hello and thank you all for your overwhelming responses. This is a great forum with a lot of very helpful members and you all certainly give me a lot to think about...
More about me and my needs as requested. I do use 3/4 plywood maple sheets for a lot of what i build and presently i have a 25 year old still in perfect condition Delta Unisaw with extension tables but no scoring or sliding table and i do struggle with full sheets. I am mostly alone in the shop and need to be able to perform tasks by myself. I build desks and other pieces of furniture that require the use of plywood in many occasions. So far I am my best client but as time goes on and i become better known in my area i can imagine that i will pick up more and more clients and be building some things for them....But the pieces will probably have to be economical as this area of the country will dictate that with a few exceptions i can imagine.
I am leaning to the idea of a slider and the more and more i learn about them, the more i read and the more videos i see, i think this is the way to go for the quality of cut with a scoring blade and the versatility of the sliding table and the sheer pleasure of making such quality cuts. I just have enough room for a 9 foot slider but i want it to be single phase ....I have plenty of power as i have a 200 amp main in the shop but do not really want to deal with a phase converter and the added expense in this purchase.
Again thanks to you all for your well wishes and your profound advice towards this decision. I value this very much and look forward to much more participation and learning from all of you .....

[Larry Edgerton]

[QUOTE=john s white;1584050]. I just have enough room for a 9 foot slider but i want it to be single phase ....I have plenty of power as i have a 200 amp main in the shop but do not really want to deal with a phase converter and the added expense in this purchase.
QUOTE]

You could look at this from a different direction.

If you were to buy a good used slider you would easily save enough to buy a Phase Perfect brand [not a rotary]converter, and then would have what you need to be able to pick up other three phase equipment that is inexpensive just because it is three phase. Say for example a commercial pin router can be had for around a grand in good shape, a machine that would be many times more new. Your options would be opened up on what you could purchase.

There are many deals on three phase equipment out there, but you need the power. A 30 hp Phase perfect is about $4500.

[Scott Vigder]

I use the basic Eurekazone EZ Smart system for cutting sheet goods, and it works beautifully. It is inexpensive, solidly-built, easy to master, and if you have to call with questions you talk to the owner of the company! It takes up next to zero space when not in use.

[William A. Parker]

John If you want the finest, go with a used Altenhedorf F45. There is no finer saw. You will never look back. make a cart to offoad from your truck. You will be able to cut directly to finished quality and sizes. The one issue will be the phase conversion issue from three phase to single. But that should not be a major issue.
Good luck keep us posted.
Bill

[Joe Jensen]

Hello and thank you all for your overwhelming responses. This is a great forum with a lot of very helpful members and you all certainly give me a lot to think about...
More about me and my needs as requested. I do use 3/4 plywood maple sheets for a lot of what i build and presently i have a 25 year old still in perfect condition Delta Unisaw with extension tables but no scoring or sliding table and i do struggle with full sheets. I am mostly alone in the shop and need to be able to perform tasks by myself. I build desks and other pieces of furniture that require the use of plywood in many occasions. So far I am my best client but as time goes on and i become better known in my area i can imagine that i will pick up more and more clients and be building some things for them....But the pieces will probably have to be economical as this area of the country will dictate that with a few exceptions i can imagine.
I am leaning to the idea of a slider and the more and more i learn about them, the more i read and the more videos i see, i think this is the way to go for the quality of cut with a scoring blade and the versatility of the sliding table and the sheer pleasure of making such quality cuts. I just have enough room for a 9 foot slider but i want it to be single phase ....I have plenty of power as i have a 200 amp main in the shop but do not really want to deal with a phase converter and the added expense in this purchase.
Again thanks to you all for your well wishes and your profound advice towards this decision. I value this very much and look forward to much more participation and learning from all of you .....

Here are some nice examples.
http://www.exfactory.com/Equipment.aspx?type=cat&what=PS

[Mike Wilkins]

My opinion only here. Get a good-quality sliding table saw with scoring attachment that will aid cutting sheet goods, as well as great cross-cutting capability. As for processing sheet goods, get a Festool track saw which is a fine quality tool. I got one after making a mess of some expensive oak plywood using a straightedge and skill saw. Money well spent.

[Jeff Duncan]

The short answer is of the 2 options you provided, the slider will be a better quality machine.
However short answers aren't always the best answers are they? You mentioned this is for a retirement shop. Sliders require more difficult lifting as you have to get those 4 x 8 sheets onto the slider. For myself approaching 40 I find this to be a daunting task, albeit one I have to do daily. I do NOT want to be doing it as I approach retirement. Much more difficult than propping a sheet up to a vertical. Also sliders require a lot more floorspace to cut up sheet goods.
So the solution is a good quality tablesaw coupled with a good quality vertical. The problem is if your looking at new verticals for under $4k....well, they're just not what I'd recommend. I had one I used for several years to break down sheet goods and the edges were never good enough quality for the level of work I do. It also was not reliable for perfectly straight/square edges.
Nope for $4k, or maybe a bit more depending on your local market, your much much much better off with a used HolzHer 1265. Striebigs are also nice, well actually better machines, but even their so called compact is huge and may be difficult to fit? With these saws you simply lean your panel against the fence and cut with just about perfect edges every time. I started out in the trade on an old Striebig and can't say enough good things about those type of saws. I haven't used the Holzher myself but they're supposed to be a good second choice.

good luck,
JeffD