043 plough plane help

[Robert Culver]

I resently pick up a record 043 plow plane.It is missing the front screw that holds the fence rod into the main body of the plane. I have looked around and can't find one with the proper pitch. Its not standard. I'm pretty sure its 5 mm and a machinest said the pitch is posably around 27 to 30 if I remeber right any body know where I can find one. I could tap them out I guess but only want to do that as a last resort. Any ideas?

[Bill Houghton]

If it's 5mm, you should be able to pick up a metric screw at your local hardware or auto parts store. I believe the thread pitches on metric screws have been standardized for a while.

If it is, incidentally, stating the thread pitch as "27 or 30" (which would be threads per inch) isn't much use. Metric thread pitches indicate the distance from peak to peak (technically, from any given point on the thread to the matching point on the next "thread" over).

I don't know if Record used Whitworth at any point - if they did, and yours is Whitworth, go find a shop in your town that repairs old British cars or motorcycles. How you would tell, I'm not sure.

There are lots of non-standard fractional threads, too.

Not much help here. As the saying goes, "We have not succeeded in answering all your problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things."

[Jim Koepke]

Stanley did not make this model, but I know Record used a lot of Stanley designs.

If the screw has American threads, it is likely 28 tpi.

I am surprised the machinist doesn't have a thread gauge. If it will not fit any American threads, then it is likely metric.

It all depends on how old the plane happens to be. Though it would be unusual for the maker to change thread patterns just because of a change in standards. Most of them either used standard threads or they had their own proprietary standards like Stanley.

Do you know anyone in your area who might have a Stanley #45 or #55 to see if the screws have the same threads? The Stanley planes used 1/4-28 pitch screws.

jtk

[Bill Houghton]

Do you know anyone in your area who might have a Stanley #45 or #55 to see if the screws have the same threads? The Stanley planes used 1/4-28 pitch screws.

jtk

1/4" - 28 is a standard National Fine pitch. If Mr. Culver hasn't been able to fit something from the screws-and-bolts aisle of his hardware store in, it's probably not that size/pitch.

6mm is a little smaller than 1/4" anyway - 5mm that much smaller yet. But estimating screw size from the minor diameter of the threads in a hole is a challenge.

We could speculate forever. You might contact Alice Frampton, aka Alf, to see if she knows: http://www.cornishworkshop.co.uk/

[Jonathan McCullough]

You might want to ask Alice Frampton aka ALF, the Plough Plane Princess of Cornwall, and I mean that in the best way. She really has some of the best info on the web about metallic ploughs, and as I recall she particularly fancies the British Record models. I think she has a website called Cornish Workshop and a blog called Musings from the Workshop.

[Acharya Kumarswami]

St. James Bay Tool Company sells replacement parts for Stanley planes, and Record as well. He can also supply blades, just about anything you need.

[Robert Culver]

The machinest used a thread guadge but the screw I have is a little loose so he was afraid to say it is a... because its a bit worn.Its not a whitworth he verified that also. I have asked a few people about them but havent got a really solid answer yet. its sure not a standard thead I tried every standard size avalibe in the hardware stores and came out empty I even went to the local fastnell which specializes in fasteners he checked it againt a all his tooling and directed me to a machine shop. I have know this fella for a few years and he is no sluff Im sure he would tap it out or what ever I want but like I said I would like to find a screw insted of modifying it I dont think its 1/4in 28 but it could be 5mm 28. thanks for all your replies im going to check out the link Thanks.

[Scott MacLEOD2]

I have a Marples 043 which morphed into the Record.

I measured the screw in mine with micrometer, screw pitch guage and a thread tool. It turns out that the one I have is a standard 10-24 screw. Not British or Whitworth.

I also checked it with a metric pitch guage and it wasn't a metric thread.

Scott

[Jim Koepke]

1/4" - 28 is a standard National Fine pitch. If Mr. Culver hasn't been able to fit something from the screws-and-bolts aisle of his hardware store in, it's probably not that size/pitch.


I have done a lot of looking for a 1/4-28 in a lot of hardware stores and even some specialty stores. I have only found them through mail order.




The machinest used a thread guadge but the screw I have is a little loose so he was afraid to say it is a... because its a bit worn.


It may be a metric thread. A lot of them are close, but just not the same.

I do not know enough about Record tools to know what threads they used and if they switched to metric threads. I do know some Record blades I bought in the 1980s for a Stanley #45 are in metric sizes.

Also, just went out to the shop and checked my Record #778 it uses 1/4-28 threads in the plane body to hold the rods. Since this was given to me many years ago, there is no way of knowing when it was made or if it is of any relation to the #043. Some source say that Record bought rights to make Stanley planes. Some say that the same shell corp. that owns the Stanley name bought Record tools. Not sure what the full story may be.

Do you have a caliper to measure the shaft? That would be a good place to start.

Metric standard for a 5mm shaft would work out to about 31.7 threads to an inch or .8 per mm for a coarse thread.

jtk

[Scott MacLEOD2]

I should also mention that I grabbed a standard 10-24 out of the box and tried it. It ran in perfectly.

Scott

[Jim Koepke]

I should also mention that I grabbed a standard 10-24 out of the box and tried it. It ran in perfectly.

Scott

Maybe it is time for Robert to head to the hardware store and see if something that fits can be found.

Doesn't seem to go with what the machinist said, but a lot of hardware stores do carry metric screws.

jtk

[Robert Culver]

Measuring it with my caliper I come up with 4.60 on the metric scale and 3/16 on the normal fraction scale. im still looking but still empty handed I sent and email to the lady at the link still waiting to here back from her. the correct name in the book for the part is fence arm screw. im not sure if this is a posable date but the book has the number 043/06/73 in the bottom right hand corner got the box and book no screw.im sre I will find one or somthing some where Im not the kind that gives up.

[Robert Culver]

Hello Rob,

Well this is a puzzler, for sure. I confess I'd never troubled myself to check them before - thread types not exactly being my forte - so I measured all four screws on my two 043s and got a range of 0.181" - 0.185" or 4.58mm - 4.71mm. So looks like 3/16" is likely nearest. But like you I also got 28 tpi across the board and I can't find a single standard screw thread of that spec. I can only conclude for some reason they used an oddball thread size, which leaves you in a bit of bother, I'm afraid. Of course that's subject to me overlooking a thread type, but I went through the usual BSF, Whitworth etc culprits, and no joy. So... how d'you feel about tapping new threads in plane bodies...? ;)

Good luck.

Cheers, Alf

So this is my reply from alf man I really hate to tap this plane out......

[Marv Werner]

Hi Robert,

A 10-24 thread is very close to 3/16" (.187) diameter. 10-24 is a standard coarse thread and should be readily available in your local hardware store.

It could be that a previous owner has taped the thread to something other than the original. This could be the reason you aren't finding a match.

[Robert Culver]

Thanks guys I will have to give a 10-24 a shot. getting freezing rain right now so I may have to wait till tomarrow. Its an awsome little plane I cant wait to give it a run... I got a nice little project for it once I get it all togather.

[Jim Koepke]

Measuring it with my caliper I come up with 4.60 on the metric scale and 3/16 on the normal fraction scale.

3/16 is the nominal size of a #10 screw.

I was also under the missguided idea that England converted all their measurements to metric. When I was more inclined to making a living working on bicycles and automobiles it was all the rage. But that seems to have been forestalled for now. Europe was less unified in things at that time and some of the different countries used different thread standards on some parts.

jtk

[Scott MacLEOD2]

If you find it is an oddball thread and you cant find a replacement please don't tap the body. I'll make you the custom screw.

Did you pull out one of the other screws and see if it fit into the tapped hole?

Scott

[Marv Werner]

Robert,

I have a Stanley No.78 rabbit plane that has a thumb screw that holds the fence on the rod it slides on. Your machinist friend was close. The screw I have is a 3/16 or #10-28. I have screw gauges for checking screw pitch. This is not a standard American thread. If I were you, I'd take Scott MacLeod up on his generous offer to make you one.

[Alice Frampton]

I was largely joking about tapping it - although I have form - but contend it's not really "sacrilege" anyway. There are thousands of these planes around and their value is in being useable, not collectable. But if you can save the trouble and get a like for like replacement made anyway, no worries. No way are you going to get a 10-24 to fit that 28 tpi thread, that's for sure.

This has been interesting and highlighted a couple of things for me. Firstly, it's slightly amusing that, on one of the rare occasions Record came up with their own design of plane, they still had to copy Stanley by using an oddball thread on it. And secondly and more importantly, to make sure I don't lose those screws! ;)

Cheers, Alf

[Marv Werner]

Hi Alice,

Do you know if all Stanley planes use the odd-ball screw threads or did it start when some of their products were made in England? I'm guessing that a #10-28 is a limey thread. I used to ride Triumph motorcycles and had to buy Limey tools to work on them. As far as I know, the Limey system is different from metric. Perhaps if we give it all a little more thought we could come up with something even more confusing and complicated. ;)

[Jim Koepke]

Do you know if all Stanley planes use the odd-ball screw threads or did it start when some of their products were made in England? I'm guessing that a #10-28 is a limey thread.

Stanley is notorious for using their own threads. 28 per inch is pretty common on the different sizes. They also liked 20 threads per inch on things other than a 1/4 inch shaft.

If my memory is working, depth adjusters on the bench planes use 27 threads per inch.

The posts on a #1 bench plane and the #98 & 99 side rabbets use 30 threads to the inch.

At one time I wanted to make a chart for different makers and threads used, but could not get anyone else interested.

jtk

[Scott MacLEOD2]

I have a circa '90 ish Record 778 plane and for sh**s and grins I checked the fence screws and they were also a 10-24. The rest of the plane has some other sizes 1/4-20 (UNF) AND 1/4-28 (UNF). So it looks like at that time Record was using standard size threads.

Brownells sells a good selection of screws for this type of stuff here:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=394/Product/FILLISTER_HEAD_SCREW_KIT

and there is a good page on thread sizes and pitches here:

http://www.smithfast.com/msthreaddims.html

Scott

[Marv Werner]

Robert,

I stand/sit corrected..... did some checking..... #12-28 is an American Standard thread. But it's not a common size.

[Robert Culver]

I did get out today and pick up a 10-24 and a 10 -32 the 10-24 is way off. i can turn the 10-32 in 3 times then it gets snug that tells me no. Its got to be a 10-28 if I could get a few of these made I wouldnt turn it down thats for sure...... infact I would probably lock the in a bank vault or something.

[Mark Baldwin III]

I believe that 10-24 and the Whitworth 3/16 are the same. Found out a lot about threads building my Triumph chopper. If the previous owner was determined enough, there would be metrics or standards jammed into whit's. That gets real frustrating when you check a bolt...see that it's 1/4-28, then go to fit it, just to find out that it was really a 27. Even better is the fact that during the late 60's and early 70's, the Brit mfg's were converting from whit to standard and used whit's until they ran out. Which means that the same machine would have whit and standard threads throughout.

[Alice Frampton]

I believe that 10-24 and the Whitworth 3/16 are the same.
Almost. I believe the thread angle is different though; 60° vs 55° iirc. You can bodge it okay thogh, I understand. (Actually that's a good point - I believe the screw in question is 60° if Rob gets one made.) Anyway, it seems the whole "divided by a common language" thing also applies to the language of threads. Then throw in the switch to metric which, as Mark says, was not an overnight complete change by any means, and it's confusing enough without non-standard threads as well. Bless you, Record, for making our lives just a little bit more complicated then they were anyway. :rolleyes:

Cheers, Alf