Dovetail for top front rail on a small table.

[Dan Karachio]

I'm curious how many people use a dovetail for the top front rail of any type of small table (beside, end...) and if it is really necessary for strength over a M&T joint. I have cut two in my life, they worked out well, but it was something of a hassle to get the exact length of the piece to match my other pieces.

[Philip Rodriquez]

What, everyone did not have an opinion on this one???

Personally, I can see where a DT would provide some additional strength... but I'd just go for a M&T... and pin it, if I thought it needed it.

[steven c newman]

On some tables I've made, I did use a sliding dovetail. For the correct length, i slid the apron in place upside down. This gave the length I needed to make, as I then cut off the dovetail that was abovethe top of the173673 leg. Turn it back over and slid it home. Most tables I make though, I use a M&T joint. However, I add a corner block to the inside, fasten173672ed to the aprons. This helps keep the legs sturdy, and gives me a place to secure the top to.

As for a top rail over a drawer. I have used a173671 "half-dovetail" where they meet the legs. Then I drive a pair of "pins" through the dovetail, and into the leg. I might have a picture or two:173669

[David Hawxhurst]

i think for a small table either would work fine.

[David Thompson 27577]

A mortise and tenon joint is incredibly strong, when done correctly. Although a dovetail would also work wonderfully, IMO it is overkill.

[Greg Hawthorne]

If the use of a M&T joint would result in the mortise being across the grain near the end of the upright, a dovetail joint is the better option.

[Tony Bilello]

No doubt, the dovetail is the better joint because you have a mechanical lock in addition to glue. The real question is "Is it necesary?"
I think not. It is a bit of overkill and could pose repair problems way way down the line, mianly because of the mechanical locking of the joint.
I have attended seminars and classes with Tage Frid and Sam Maloof. When the question came up as to which is the best joint, the answer was 'the easiest joint to make that will be sufficient for the job at hand'.
BTW, in my opinion, pinning any joint is never a good idea. I repair enough furniture and antiques to tell you that any metal object running through wood is a potential source of splitting. Also, if and when the glue fails, the joint will be damaged while trying to remove the pin or screw.

[Dan Karachio]

I could swear I responded to this. First, Philip, thanks for the bump. I had given up and didn't want to be a pest. I found myself thinking this joint (that nobody would ever see but me) should be a dovetail as a sort of rite of passage. I am joining a 3/4" x 1 1/2" rail to 1 3/4" square legs (little bit of inset - the 3/4 side is facing out, not the 1 1/2 side).

Like this: http://www.finewoodworking.com/media/w00078_04.jpg

However, I am lousy at doing these by hand, getting an exact length to match all my other pieces is hard and routing is not easy on the rail (long piece on it's end...). I did one on a simple table, but this one is using nice wood and if I goof on this project, I am up the creek (not the sawmill creek, the dirty smelly bad one).

Still, while I may go with the M&T any way, I am curious how people cut these with a router. I see it this way. First cut the dovetail in the leg - use the router table and cut from both sides to slightly less than the 3/4" depth of the corresponding piece and cut from both sides to get it centered - chisel out the rest. Now, with my bit height staying exactly as I left it, somehow hold the rail workpiece (a test piece to start) vertically and cut each side, sneaking up until I get the right width to fit. Once I have it, use the real piece and cut one end. Then measure the length of the dovetail, add that twice plus the final length I want between the legs, cut it off then cut the other dovetail on the opposing side.

The problem is how to hold the darn rail on the router table. If my tenon jig could reach, it would be perfect (with a backer board for tear out). But, it doesn't. I see plenty of jigs for cutting sliding key dovetails, but these are always on the face of the board (narrow dimension to the fence) and not quite the same thing. Does this make sense? I am failing to see in my simple mind the right jig for this.

Honestly, I am sure the hand tool guys are laughing at me here - they could cut this faster by hand than the time it is taking me to post this, but I am simply terrified of botching it. I simply lack the finesse and practice to do this right by hand and don't have spare legs! :D

[Frank Drew]

For a typical bedside or side table with a drawer, IMO the rail above the drawer is best dovetailed, with all the other rail-to-leg joints mortise and tenon.

I say that because drawer rails are usually thin (like 3/4" or maybe 1"); best practice is to haunch any top rail tenon (table, door, whatever), meaning it will be reduced in size even further; so the resulting tenon would be so small -- almost a dowel -- that it wouldn't give much glue area at all. And the rail below the drawer wouldn't add much to the equation, either.

As Tony notes, a dovetailed joint is strong independent of the glue, and entirely resistant to being pulled apart against its strength, unlike a tiny little tenon with a very limited glueline. Where Tony and I disagree is on the overkill part.

[Dan Karachio]

ThanksFrank. How do you cut them?

[steven c newman]

I just cut the making part with the bandsaw. Just a couple of cuts and done. 173724While this one is a middle rail, for attaching a top, the tail was just cut on the bandsaw.

[David Hawxhurst]

you need to make a couple of router jigs to make them quick and easy with the router. pat warner has some good ideas on this. my method is to use a mortising jig (similar to the pat's) and the second jig is used for cutting the dovetail tenon (use a tenoning jig). the ultimate would be to use three routers the first with a straight bit to hog out the slot, the second set to cut the dovetail slot and the third set-up to cut the dovetail tenon. basically your making a sliding dovetail which is something i would not do on a router table.

[Paul Murphy]

173725Well, if you want to use a router to cut the rail I can think of 3 ways I have seen. The picture shows one way, using a tenoning jig.
If your router table has a tall fence you can get a square backer board, something like 12" x 12", stand it on edge, and rout both sides of the rail.
One more way is to use a Leigh dovetail jig to clamp the rail, and use a hand router against the sliding dovetail bar.
You mentioned Pat Warner's jig, so that is yet another option.

If you want to try the hand work, it helps to make a couple "paring blocks" for sneaking up on the final fit with a sharp chisel

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks David. I found Pat Warner's site - man, is he the router man or what? Where exactly does he present this? Is it in one of his books or some other publication. It's too bad dovetail jigs (or most) can't handle thick stock like a 1.75" leg or this would be a snap. I think what you are saying is to essentially replicated that process with jigs. Do you think it would be unsafe on a table? I was playing with my Incra miter gauge and some attachments and I think I can securely hold the rail vertically and cut it on the table and it seems safe - or am I fooling myself (haven't tried it yet)?

FWW has a tutorial on sliding dovetails online and they show a guy doing this! Personally, I would never try that, would you?
http://www.finewoodworking.com/uploadedimages/Fine_Woodworking_Network/Image_Resources/Web_Only/99933248-sliding-dovetails_02.jpg

[Dan Hahr]

Why not? How else would you do it?

Unless I already had the jigs needed to mortise the top of the legs and cut the dovetails, I would cut them by hand. It may be the easiest dovetail work you will ever do. There's only one tail on each side! As far as geting the length right, simply measure the exact distance from leg to leg. (The same length as the bottom apron minus the tenons.) Add the length of the dovetail x2. (1/2" to 3/4" is probably fine.) Cut the top rail to this length. Mark the length of the dovetails in from the ends. Set up a dado stack (or just nibble away with the standard blade) to cut off about a 1/4 of the thickness from the bottom from the ends up to the marks for the lenght of the dovetails. Now lay out the tails however you want. Nice thing is, it doesn't have to be pretty or the right angle, just some angle. Cut them with whatever saw you want. I would cut the shoulders with the table saw or bandsaw if you can't cut straight with a handsaw.

Finally, set the finished rail between the legs flush with the undercut dado edges. Clamp them tight and knife the layout lines for the dovetail. Measure the depth and mark it with a marking gauge ( or ruler and square), cut diagonally inside the lines, and put some sharp chisels to work. It's not easy, but that's why they call it woodworking. As long as it pulls the rail tight to the leg, it doesn't have to be pretty. Loose is not good, but you can always make a new rail.

Hope this helps, Dan

[Paul Murphy]

Dan, in the photo you posted the gentleman is holding the workpiece and a smaller backer board. I would use a larger backer board, something like 12" x 12" if I were to use this method. Here is a link to a story about this same subject:
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Sliding_Dovetails/

[Philip Rodriquez]

Dan, where do you live? If you are in my area... I could show you how to do one with power tools and one by hand. The main thing to worry about is splitting the leg as you fit the DT. Simply putting a clamp on the leg will greatly reduce the risk.

[David Hawxhurst]

some useful jigs i've found are in the book "Fast, Easy & Accurate Router Jigs" the mortising jig on his website is not in the book. he has a jig/tool he calls the the "router horse" made one and its awsome. afar as safety goes its up to you, i personally would not stand a 3/4" board on end like some will. my fence has a high support bracket for such things but i don't do it. the thing to think about is what will happen if the board shifts during the cut. the cut will definetly be spoiled (maybe enough to ruin that piece). i use jigs because i've made them (which is quick and easy). they work and are quick and easy to use. they where built with sliding dovetails and mortice and tenon joints in mind.

[Russell Sansom]

I'm basically a hand worker, so these kinds of dovetails are trivial for me. If I had to invent the method here's what I'd do:
Cut the "tail" ( that goes on the ends of the rail ) with a bandsaw, scroll saw, router table or if by hand, a dovetail saw or even coping saw. The only critical dimension is the distance ( and squareness ) of the two scribed lines where the dovetail starts. This sets the absolute length of the rail in relationship to the table. This length is the defined width of the table between the legs. You don't have to measure it, just take if off the shoulders of the front and back apron. They should be exactly equal.
The walls of the dovetail need to be square to the face of the rail. That's the only critical degree of freedom. The tails themselves can be any shape....hearts, semi circles, even just shaped like a tenon ( if you then pin from above ).
Lay the tail atop the leg and outline it crisply with a pencil. Follow the top down the inside with pencil lines just to the depth of the dovetail. When you cut this recess out, just exactly leave the lines and the tail should slip in with a little pressure.
The hard part for you is making the half pins or the recess that the tail sits in. You can drill most of it out using a depth stop. Or you can plunge it into a bandsaw with a depth stop. You "could" finish up the bottom of the recess with a router or pare it with a chisel.

In commercial furniture, this joint is sometimes a bit sloppy. It doesn't show and the only fit that really matters is that the "shoulders" of the dovetail fit tight and squarely against the leg. If you didn't get the wedging action of the tail in the socket tight you can shim it. You can pin it from above with a dowel or two. I would never ever put metal inside a joint like that.

[steven c newman]

For a sliding dovetail into a leg's top (like for an apron) I set up my router table to cut that with the leg laying flat on the table. A start line, and an "end" line on the fence shows how deep the cut will be. This is for a sliding doevtail. The apron is stood up ( how hard is it to hold a piece less the 18" long vertical) and run through. I set the fence for that cut (a zero clearence fence) so that exactly 1/2 of the dovetail bit is exposed. Slowly slide the piece past the bit. Check for fit, adjust as needed. Slider depth vs apron width is adjusted by sliding the apron in backwards. I can then mark how much I need to trim the dovetail, so that the top of the apron matches thetop of the leg.

For that Half-dovetail front aproned table, I made all the cuts on the Tablesaw. Tilt the blade about 7 degrees or so for the angled parts. Come back with the blade at 90 degres and finish up.

[Matt Kestenbaum]

I am working on a set of matching bedside tables now that use this Dovetailed joint -- tope rail above the drawer(s). I am pretty much using the method detailed by Chris Becksvoort in his FWW article on variations of a shaker table last year. With all the other parts fitted and dry clamped, I milled and trimmed a piece of stock to fit. Baselines were scribed just you would the shoulders of a tenon. I cut the tails by hand with a standard LN rip DT saw. Then with the rail set atop the legs, I scribed the tails onto the top of the legs. Wasted out the sockets with a Bosch colt palm router fitted with a 1/8" up-spiral bit. THis was the toughest part, as I struggle a bit to keep the router level on leg tops...not wanting to screw up the piece, the bit, or hurt myself...eventually creating a sort of rough mortice jig to support the router's base as I continued to freehand the majority of the waste. Cleaned up the sides of the sockets and their corners with a chisel. My only issue was I discovered (the hard way!!) that I had some short grain at the top of a leg...as I went about fine fitting the DT it split out. UGH! Well, at least I still have some of the thick stock to make a new leg.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks Dan. Regarding that picture, it just looked a little unsafe to me and I found another video on FWW saying just that and they had a more supportive jig. I digress.

Cutting by hand is looking more like the way to go. I need to stop being such a wimp. The last time I tried this, it was okay, butI was a little off and it impacted my inset and was a bit of a pain to fix up. This one piece is holding up the entire project and I am being a big baby and looking for a quick fix - eg. avoiding not really the work part of woodworking, but obtaining the skill part. Time to buck up! :-)

Last night, I practiced on some scrap and it wasn't too bad. I also like the lapping of the rail idea and thanks for that and all your advice.

[Dan Karachio]

Sorry for dragging so many through my dovetail vacillation and self doubt :D, but I pulled it off and, sorry to say, I went all power tool, but the results are fantastic. I cut the socket on the router table - came in both sides to center it. Took my Incra 1000 SE miter gauge, put a plywood panel on it, then put screwed another piece as a sort of stop perpendicular to that to hold the long rail upright. Using the easily sliding fence on the Incra, I snuck up adjustments on cutting the "key" width using the same exact bit height I used on the leg and after a test cut, got it perfect (chiseled out the rounded cut in the leg to make it square). It was so easy after taking so long to sort this out. I will never "fear" this joint again and could pump them out in production if I had to now. So like someone said, wood working is work, but many times I find the work is more mental than physical and I like that part of it (just a little slow at it).

[Dan Hahr]

It looked to me that it was more than just a backer board. I was picturing a wider board behind it with the board shown overlapping the front edge and attached to the backer. As in something to hold it vertical (side to side). Wider would be better but for that small of a cut, it sould work fine. However, its not for the dainty types...you gotta hold on.