Changing Set and Other Hand Saw Improvements

[Brent Ring]

All,

I was wanting a saw to cut dovetails with. I purchased the handsaw in the pic below. I realize I did not get the cadillac of hand saws. But it was an improvement for me.

Not being a saw tuning expert, but knowing that the default .031 kerf is too big, I would like to change it to be smaller. The speed of the cut is great. The kerf is too big.

How do I adjust it without purchasing a saw set? Can I do it with a fine stone of some type?

Also, what other changes would you make to this saw to make it better, and how would you do it?

I am a noob to the hand tools world, but finding my attraction is getting higher and higher....

[Bill Houghton]

How do I adjust it without purchasing a saw set? Can I do it with a fine stone of some type?

Yes. Just make sure you stone each side equally. Test it, and, if it tends to pull to one side, stone that side some more.

[Jim Koepke]

How do I adjust it without purchasing a saw set? Can I do it with a fine stone of some type?

As Bill said, stoning will reduce the set/kerf some.

A saw set is used to increase set. As a saw is sharpened and the top of the teeth are brought down, the saw will have less set.

A lot of the "store bought" saws not only have too much set, they will also have saw plates made of pretty beefy stock.

DAMHIKT

jtk

[john brenton]

Or, the plate may be so soft that you can sink your file in way too deep if you aren't careful. I got one of those "two cherries" dovetail saws a few years ago on sale and the set was all over the place and the saw couldn't cut butter.

I set the teeth and sharpened up to sweet performance, but not after totally sinking my file into the first two teeth on the heel. It wasn't a big deal, but it was a surprise. I never did bother jointing those two teeth, but after enough regular sharpenings they are finally about level.


As Bill said, stoning will reduce the set/kerf some.

A saw set is used to increase set. As a saw is sharpened and the top of the teeth are brought down, the saw will have less set.

A lot of the "store bought" saws not only have too much set, they will also have saw plates made of pretty beefy stock.

DAMHIKT

jtk

[harry strasil]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=66727&highlight=setting

last post

[David Weaver]

Or, the plate may be so soft that you can sink your file in way too deep if you aren't careful. I got one of those "two cherries" dovetail saws a few years ago on sale and the set was all over the place and the saw couldn't cut butter.

I set the teeth and sharpened up to sweet performance, but not after totally sinking my file into the first two teeth on the heel. It wasn't a big deal, but it was a surprise. I never did bother jointing those two teeth, but after enough regular sharpenings they are finally about level.

If that's the deer brand saw the OP is talking about, they are very soft like that, and they come with punched teeth that benefit a lot from a quick touch up with a file. The one benefit, I guess, is that you won't have to pitch a file after three sharpenings.

[David Gendron]

An other option to remove some set is to put the teeth line in a vise and close the vise on the teeth, even close completely, as you release the vise, the teeth should spring back some and give you anought set to work!!
Good luck

[Marv Werner]

Hi Brent,

As Bill suggests, you can improve the situation with your saw to some degree by side jointing the teeth.

What you are experiencing is common with an inexpensive saw. The manufacturing process is as automated as possible. The cheaper saws are made of softer metal. The teeth are punched and automatically set. The set is most always too much and will produce a wide kerf.

I have a personal rule I live by when it comes to setting handsaw teeth. I do not bend them backwards.

In my opinion, the proper way to adjust the set is with filing the teeth deeper. All you want on a saw such as yours is to have only .003 to .004 per side.

I would certainly try side jointing as a first step in reducing the kerf width. It will depend on how much set you now have as to how effective the side jointing will be. If side jointing does not give you the results you want, I suggest that you find a good saw filer guy or gal to file it and reset the teeth. Problem with this idea is, the cost of shipping your saw to an experienced saw filer and paying for the filing will probably exceed what the saw is worth. However, it might still be less expensive than buying one of the saws being made by our present day saw makers.

[David Weaver]

I think these saws are about $11, and they are very soft. It's not worth sending them to someone to file. They are soft and easy to file, and with small rip teeth, are a good way for someone to learn to file themselves.

I would use the old tradesman's trick harry mentioned (put the saw between two hard boards or in a vise and mash the teeth a little). Having seen the teeth on them, I would also file them appropriately using a file with an angle indicator block on the end, as a lot of people suggest in different tutorials, you really can't make the teeth worse. Even if you disregarded the advise to have a visual aid to make sure the file angle was consistent, the teeth would still be better when you're done.

If you have a machinist vise and no saw vise, just put them in the machinists vise between two strips of wood.

If you, by some streak of awful luck manage to drop a concrete block on the saw and make it worse, I'll send you the second one I got - for free. I got two of them thinking they would probably be decent spring steel and that I could take care of the teeth, but they are thick plate (for their size) and soft steel, two things I don't like at all. My FIL saw the first one in the garbage can and took it out and ran with it (he doesn't like to see anything thrown away).

[Marv Werner]

David,

You make it sound so easy and simple to file a handsaw. I see this written time after time in various forums.

I have refiled many a saw that the owner had attempted to file. Believe me, Brent could easily and quickly make his saw worse than it is now and wish he had left it alone.

I agree that a cheap saw is a good saw to learn to file. However, lets not mislead Brent and others in thinking that it is only a matter of clamping the saw in a bench vise and grab a file and start filing away and expect the saw to cut better than it did. He's not complaining about how it cuts, he just wants a smaller kerf.

If he wants to learn how to file saws, it's not all that difficult to learn, but he needs to learn ALL the steps in order to get there from here.

I still remember the first saw I filed. I thought that all I had to do was go to my local hardware store, buy a triangular file and file the teeth at the same angles they were. After filing the saw, all the teeth were nice and shiny, each tooth had a sharp point. Boy was I surprised when I went to cut a 2 x 4. I couldn't believe the mess that saw was making. Shortly after that disappointing experience, I was lucky to learn of Leif Hanson's website and his instructions how to file handsaws. http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/content/sharpening-hand-saws

Leif's website is a good place to start and he will recommend other sites to go to regarding the subject of beginner saw filing. Saw filing is only one of many many subjects that Leif shares. He has a vast amount of knowledge and expertise relating to most anything related to woodworking plus many other subjects that he willingly shares.

[David Weaver]

With all there is to read now, it's not that difficult - especially to file a rip saw. There may be people who still refuse to read about the process and understand before attempting, but for someone who will spend even a half hour reading, it's not difficult.

The first saw I ever filed was rip, and it is perfectly serviceable. I still have it.

Crosscut sharpening is a little harder, especially if you're worried about cosmetics and even tooth sizing when you're done, but the OP is not asking about that.

Even if the OP has to joint the teeth three times, he'll still be ahead.

I would hate to see him waste $30+ mailing an $11 saw two ways and paying for sharpen and set to avoid what is probably the best thing to learn to file on.

[Jim Koepke]

Saw filing is an art.

The best way to learn performance art is by doing.

If a person gets "lucky" filing saw teeth, they will have a well performing saw.

If like me, they miss a little, they will have a saw that cuts smooth and then starts to bounce and grab in the wood.

That is when you give a light rejoining and possibly learn that all the teeth did not get filed evenly. A little more filing with a little more care and pretty soon the saw is cutting smooth over the full length of the blade. Then you go on to adjusting the cut so it is straight.

After a few saws, these early mistakes become history and the skill/art improves. Just do not tell your friends, they will want you to sharpen their saws.

jtk

[george wilson]

You guys may think I'm nuts,but I always just squeezed them in a SMOOTH jawed machinist's vise,stopping the handle at the same place every time I squeezed. A look down the teeth,a few corrections,and the saws were fine.

As hard as the spring steel in our saws was(52 RC),if any were liable to break,ours certainly were. I broke no teeth ever,doing that. Our saws were hard on files,for sure,but kept an edge a long time,too. Mack Headley,the Master Cabinetmaker,told a forum in Wmsbg. that our saws were the best he'd ever seen.

[Marv Werner]

Due to my old rule to not bend the teeth backwards, I've never tried using a machinist vise. Just thinking about it from a logical stand point, it probably works on bigger teeth such as maybe 10PPI and bigger, but 11PPI and smaller, I'd reason that there will be more teeth in the vise jaws and considering how much pressure a saw set must exert on a single tooth to bend it, even the best of the machinist vises would have little or no effect on the set. Also, the jaws on the vise will be of softer steel compared to the hardness of a saw plate. I'm going to guess that the teeth will embed into the softer jaws and just leave some small pick points.

I have a very good Wilton machinist bullet type vise with 3-1/2" jaws. I will give it a try on an old saw plate. But first I'll mic the teeth before and again after.

[David Weaver]

Saw filing is an art.

The best way to learn performance art is by doing.

If a person gets "lucky" filing saw teeth, they will have a well performing saw.

If like me, they miss a little, they will have a saw that cuts smooth and then starts to bounce and grab in the wood.

That is when you give a light rejoining and possibly learn that all the teeth did not get filed evenly. A little more filing with a little more care and pretty soon the saw is cutting smooth over the full length of the blade. Then you go on to adjusting the cut so it is straight.

After a few saws, these early mistakes become history and the skill/art improves. Just do not tell your friends, they will want you to sharpen their saws.

jtk

Based on my own experience (and what troubled me at first), I would guess that most people probably don't get all of their teeth the same height, or when they set teeth, they have a few outliers and don't stone (which scuff the work surface on the sides and cause tearout). You can get away with a lot if you have teeth the same height and have a stone. The teeth don't need to be perfectly sized, they just need to be relatively similar in size and be the same height.

Second thing that troubled me was the second saw I filed, I put 20 or 25 degrees of fleam on a 8 tpi rip saw without changing the rake. That's a hard starting rough-back-of-the-cut SOB, but it cuts FAST though rough. That was several years ago, I guess, I left that saw as-is for now because I came across saws I favor a lot more.

[David Weaver]

I have a very good Wilton machinist bullet type vise with 3-1/2" jaws. I will give it a try on an old saw plate. But first I'll mic the teeth before and again after.

I don't think hardness is the limiting factor in absolute terms (i.e., I don't think teeth will refuse to bend just because the saw jaws are softer). they will, of course, mark the face of the jaws if they're harder.

Tommy Mac, before his free content was unceremoniously removed from public view, suggested putting a new cheap saw between two boards and smacking the boards to remove set from saws. His suggestion was that, I think, to encourage people to buy a cheap gentleman's saw and make it workable, and he implied that's how he's been removing set for quite some time, and that he's been using those cheap saws in his shop instead of premium saws.

He also popped up in one of them showing a gentleman's saw that someone gave him (a LN) and then said with some guilt something to the effect of "ok, it is better, ...it's really nice to use".

I don't think that video will see the light of day again with an unsolicited compliment to an LN tool given that WC is the sponsor of that show.

Anyway, the hardness of the jaws is a concern, double stick two old stanley plane irons to the faces of the jaws. For teeth as small and as soft as the OP is talking about, I would stone the set off with light passes on a medium stone. The set will head for the hills pronto, there's not that much metal there.

[Brent Ring]

YOu guys are all awesome - I now have more to try than I thought. Would anyone change the handle or anything else, besides flattening and sharpening....?

[Lance Gomes]

I also remember one of the "Saw Doc" types saying something to the effect that when they had too much set, they put a sheet or two of paper over the saw blade, and tightened it in a bench vise. The teeth would punch through the paper, but not the hardwood faces (much), and the result was a VERY uniform set of a couple of thousandths.

I had thought it was Mike Wenzloff, but couldn't find it on his site. Anyone else remember where this was/who wrote it?

Lance

[harry strasil]

It was me, go to post #5 of this thread and click on the url and go to the last post #4. And it was a smooth jawed machinists vise, not a wood lined WWers vise.

[Lance Gomes]

Harry,thanks for the reply! Yep, I did see your post while I was searching for the one I remembered. Your's wasn't the post I was thinking of, but says the same thing.

Turns out I wasn't remembering a post at all, but a video of Mike Wenzloff at WIA. It was in Shannon Rodger's Renaissance Woodworker podcast, episode #73: "WIA: Wenzloff and saw sharpening". At 11:53 mike starts talking about how he just says no to stoning, and describes this method. He doesn't specify the type of vise or faces he uses, so I plead ignorance on that! :-)

I'll probably try it a couple different ways, and see what works. UHMW may be a good compromise between wood and metal, and not damage teeth.

-Lance

[george wilson]

The saws I often reduced the set in by squeezing in a smooth jawed machinist's vise were usually the hardest and most brittle spring steel available,1095. I never broke a tooth off by squeezing the saws,though you can break off a large rip saw tooth in 1095 while setting them with a saw set. Whether it is dangerous to bend a tooth backwards depends upon how much you are bending it back. Reducing some excess set isn't going to require the tooth to be bent back much.

It might be hard to find a smooth jawed machinist's vise,though. I had to grind the jaws on my vises smooth to rid them of the diamond knurled surfaces. This I did on a belt grinder with a flat platen. You need some skill to keep the jaws truly flat and parallel,however.

Before I had a smooth jawed machinist's vise,I used to just carefully hammer the teeth down a bit on a steel surface. This sounds dangerous and crude,but with care and skill,it worked fine for me,and I got accurate results. I don't necessarily recommend it to everyone,though. The saws I did this to were softer than the good saws being made from 1095 these days.

All these processes I mention require care. The danger of damaging a tooth depends upon the degree of bending,and skill. With a cheap saw made of softer grades of spring steel,the danger of breaking a tooth are much reduced.

Personally,I never stone the sides of teeth. It makes the teeth thinner,and I prefer to keep them at original thickness.

[harry strasil]

I have never stoned the teeth of a saw, and on large rip teeth I only set the very ends of the teeth as I use the paper trick for getting even set on both my crosscut and rip saws. I know that in steel the bottom of a gullet is a stress point, and my theory is if you try to set the whole tooth you are increasing the stress at the gullet line and thus are more apt to have a tooth break off. FWIW

[george wilson]

The tips are the only necessary thing to set. That fancy saw set I posted a few months ago just does the tips. It showed the set doing just that in the original brochure someone posted about that set.